N430 or V12

[Number Eight]

Hi,

I'm looking for the benefit of others experience. I'm looking at buying a used N430, but have noticed that for what I'm looking at spending I'm getting close to being able to buy a V12. Admittedly it's a 3 YO N430 or an 8 YO V12. My daily driver is a 2005 Impreza WRX PPP which I've owned from new and I have an Elise for the track. I live in Lincolnshire and do a weekly commute to Shropshire but don't use the car much during the week. I plan to use the Vantage during the summer, doing around 6000 miles to and from work, general stuff with probably a European tour thrown in, then switch back to the Impreza for the winter. I'd like to know people's experiences of using the V8 and V12 on a daily basis, it'll be used in all summer weather and I've ben told the V12 requires full concentration all the time. Also how the running costs compare, looking at Works Service website the V12 isn't that much more but I imagine that can change as things need replacing. I understand the V12 clutch costs double that of a V8 and while I'm led to believe carbon discs don't wear much, they can crack? I do drive with a fair degree of mechanical sympathy, the Impreza's clutch show little sign of wear after 196,000 miles. I'm budgeting £6,000 a year for insurance, tax, Mot and general servicing of all three cars. I'm not too worried about depreciation as I don't buy cars very often and don't intend to sell any unless my circumstances change dramatically or it becomes ruinously expensive. Any tips or advice anyone has will be greatly appreciated.


Many thanks.

[Brakke]

I had a v8v 4.3 and a v12vr

V12 all day.
Just the sound of the V12 is so much more subtle and deeper.
From a depreciation perspective also probably a better choice.

N430 will be a better balanced car, slightly cheaper to run due to mostly brakes, tires and fuel. Parts im not too familiar with.

Either way, youre winner!

[V12Manual]

V12V every time. I realise I have own mine just over two years and only use it about 1,000 km a year. But a blast down to Spa last weekend was tremendous. It does need concentration, you are right, as it will certainly test you, but you will not look back. Also I think the V12V will start to appreciate soon as we have seen with DBS pricing recently...

Best,

[Number Eight]

Thanks,

How long have you had your V12? Does it use a lot more fuel than the V8? With a light right foot I can get 30 mpg out of the Impreza, is 20 achievable?

[kev1966900]

I used to own a Subaru WR1 and now have a V12V. You can't chuck the Vantage around like the Subaru in the wet but as long as you are gentle with your inputs it shouldn't catch you out too often. In the dry the Vantage is fantastic and definitely has more of a sense of occasion.

[V12Manual]

No idea mate - I rarely check the fuel consumption. I think it is achievable but clearly not if you boot it. I always put the onboard computer on the speedo rather than on consumption. The real time consumption is enough to give you a heart attack so avoid that at all costs.

You will not regret it. But I would concede it is not as much of a daily as my 997 Turbo.

[nickv8]

I’d counter the V12 line and suggest the V8S or N430 (effectively the same, apart from trim).

I would also suggest the SSII automated manual.

I had the chance recently when p/x my 2014 non-S V8V for going with a 2013 V12V but stuck with the V8 (2016 S). They handle so well, are so resolved, and the gearbox is so good (amazed me too, but the manual’s stick is simply not ergonomically positioned).

I’m sure carbon ceramics are amazing. But never have I thought the 6 piston callipers on the 2012.25+ MY are deficient in any way. They squeak, but that’s all.

As the many years of production passed, they simply refined further. A 5 year newer car is likely to feel tighter, newer and has better ICE/connectivity.

And get the secondary de-cats bypassed and the noise is tremendous.

My disclaimer is that I’ve had a test drive in a V12VSM and never lived with one. Yes - it was fast, but the roads rarely let a V8 stretch it’s legs anyway...

As always, advice is for a test drive in both to see what suits you. There’s not much in it outlay-wise. Running costs aren’t poles apart. Depreciation is crystal ball stuff.

You won’t be unhappy with either

[Number Eight]

Thanks for all that. Now the V12s are getting older is anyone having issues with wear on suspension components and such like? I've had the Elise 6 years, although it's now 20, in that time I've changed all the ball joints, bushes, steering rack, and a couple of bearings. Similarly the Impreza has just had new shocks/springs and needs new ARB droplinks and bushes. Also would anyone be prepared to tell me how much their actual servicing bills are? The Works Service menu is one thing but Lotus do the same sort of fixed price thing and I still seem to leave Bell and Colvill the best part of a grand lighter than I walked in every year. I was looking at a 2016 N430 at the weekend and the two bills it had were in the region of £700. The V12 they had, which I couldn't stop looking at, although having 8 dealer stamps in the book didn't have any bills with it which was a little disconcerting, though possibly a haggling point?

[Number Eight]

I've heard before that the V8 handles better due to less weight up front, is it that noticeable? On the ICE side is the V12 not the same as the V8 pre-2016? I'm a complete luddite, don't use sat nav and still have CDs, so not too worried about it.

[Zod]

Number Eight said:

Thanks for all that. Now the V12s are getting older is anyone having issues with wear on suspension components and such like? I've had the Elise 6 years, although it's now 20, in that time I've changed all the ball joints, bushes, steering rack, and a couple of bearings. Similarly the Impreza has just had new shocks/springs and needs new ARB droplinks and bushes. Also would anyone be prepared to tell me how much their actual servicing bills are? The Works Service menu is one thing but Lotus do the same sort of fixed price thing and I still seem to leave Bell and Colvill the best part of a grand lighter than I walked in every year. I was looking at a 2016 N430 at the weekend and the two bills it had were in the region of £700. The V12 they had, which I couldn't stop looking at, although having 8 dealer stamps in the book didn't have any bills with it which was a little disconcerting, though possibly a haggling point?

I've had mine seven years. Early in the summer, one of the gearchange linkages disconnected. Fixing that required dropping the exhaust and gearbox, so I had the suspension checked out. The gasket on one of the rear driveshafts was leaking. That was fixed for £150. My suspension was declared absolutely fine.

[Number Eight]

Zod said:

I've had mine seven years. Early in the summer, one of the gearchange linkages disconnected. Fixing that required dropping the exhaust and gearbox, so I had the suspension checked out. The gasket on one of the rear driveshafts was leaking. That was fixed for £150. My suspension was declared absolutely fine.

I assume dropping the exhaust and gearbox was more than £150? How was the wear on the clutch? Did you have it changed as the gearbox was out?

[Zod]

Number Eight said:

Zod said:

I've had mine seven years. Early in the summer, one of the gearchange linkages disconnected. Fixing that required dropping the exhaust and gearbox, so I had the suspension checked out. The gasket on one of the rear driveshafts was leaking. That was fixed for £150. My suspension was declared absolutely fine.

I assume dropping the exhaust and gearbox was more than £150? How was the wear on the clutch? Did you have it changed as the gearbox was out?

The other work cost £2K. Clutch was absolutely fine at 34K miles.

[Big Ry]

I've had both a V8S and V12, and personally I think it depends what you want it for. As a DD, I must admit I'd probably go for the V8S. However, as a weekend toy and something for decent trips in, the V12 wins hands down. The power delivery is epic and Jesus that sound

Not sure where you get the idea that a V12 clutch costs twice that of a V8 though. I've never heard that, and seeing as a V8 one will set you back 2.5-3k, I doubt a V12 is much different at all, maybe a smidge more. Saying that, I don't think i've read about anyone actually replacing the clutch in a V12.......I guess the double clutch plate does it's job well.

As for the CCM's........not heard about them cracking on V12's. You get the odd clown who decides to wash them using chemicals and buggers them that way, but other than that I think they're fine. Obviously wear is going to depend on how often and hard hard you use them.

Ultimately, either is awesome, however for a DD I'd be looking for as new a car I could get, and that would be a V8S.

I'm not however factoring in any form of man maths and depreciation (or possible appreciation) over time......that bit's for you and your conscience

[CSK1]

Number Eight said:

I've heard before that the V8 handles better due to less weight up front, is it that noticeable? On the ICE side is the V12 not the same as the V8 pre-2016? I'm a complete luddite, don't use sat nav and still have CDs, so not too worried about it.

I think there's roughly 100 kg difference (some of that could be compensated with LW seats and Performance Pack on the V12VS) but the engine is not sitting entirely on the front axle (engine has been set back as much as possible) and weight distribution of the V12 Vantage is 51/49 so very balanced despite the heavier engine.

Edited by CSK1 on Monday 17th September 18:41

[Number Eight]

Big Ry said:

I've had both a V8S and V12, and personally I think it depends what you want it for. As a DD, I must admit I'd probably go for the V8S. However, as a weekend toy and something for decent trips in, the V12 wins hands down. The power delivery is epic and Jesus that sound

Not sure where you get the idea that a V12 clutch costs twice that of a V8 though. I've never heard that, and seeing as a V8 one will set you back 2.5-3k, I doubt a V12 is much different at all, maybe a smidge more. Saying that, I don't think i've read about anyone actually replacing the clutch in a V12.......I guess the double clutch plate does it's job well.

As for the CCM's........not heard about them cracking on V12's. You get the odd clown who decides to wash them using chemicals and buggers them that way, but other than that I think they're fine. Obviously wear is going to depend on how often and hard hard you use them.

Ultimately, either is awesome, however for a DD I'd be looking for as new a car I could get, and that would be a V8S.

I'm not however factoring in any form of man maths and depreciation (or possible appreciation) over time......that bit's for you and your conscience

I got the clutch thing from the independent dealer who had the N430 and V12 I was looking at, he said that the V12 clutch was 5 grand? He also said clutches need changing anywhere between 20-50,000 miles, either of which seems frequent to me. I did think he was incorrect in saying that the sport button switched between comfort and sport suspension settings, whereas I've been shown N430 build sheets stating which set up the car is fitted with. I'm clearly going to have to try both and make a decision on that.

[Bincenzo]

Evening. I’ve had a 4.3 V8V, and am now in a V12VR. Both manual.

V8 is a better balanced car. Slightly more nimble, lighter and an S with the 4.7 has much improved torque over the 4.3. Running costs will be slightly lower than the V12, consumables are no more expensive than a premium German wagon. Fuel economy will of course be better in the V8, but not markedly so. Manual gearbox is great fun but as a daily driver in traffic, you may wish to consider the SS, although please don’t think of it as an auto -it simply doesn’t behave that way. It’s an automated manual, and treated as such it’s ok. The manual shifter is in the wrong place on both variants. Too far to the rear and I find it a little awkward.
Servicing is reasonably similar to V12 - about £700 a go, ignoring any consumables.

V12 has considerably more torque and as such is a handful, particularly in the wet although you have stated you drive with some sympathy. Probably best at first until you get used to it. Noise is entirely different, particularly when the secondary cats are removed. CCMs are pretty robust but can need replacing after serious track running. Iron brakes are very good on V8.

IMO, for a daily, I’d take the N430 every time. Newer, less fidgety on UK roads, loads of drama, great noise, reasonably rare, massive fun, better economy. Both are, however, very capable of being a daily, it’s just that the market seems to demand low mileage for residuals.

Lincoln and Shropshire -sounds military to me.......?

[Emilio Largo]

Number Eight said:

I'm a complete luddite, don't use sat nav and still have CDs ...

Warning: You won´t be able to play CDs in a MY16 onwards. There is no CD player any more

... BUT:

nickv8 said:

As the many years of production passed, they simply refined further

That is the impression that I get from my 17MY V8 Vantage S in comparison with what I have been reading here in all those years about older MYs.

nickv8 said:

, but the roads rarely let a V8 stretch it’s legs anyway...

That´s what I think exactly.

And the V8 S noise in "Sport" mode is just fantastic, too - no need to remove anything.

[nickv8]

Number Eight said:

I did think he was incorrect in saying that the sport button switched between comfort and sport suspension settings, whereas I've been shown N430 build sheets stating which set up the car is fitted with. I'm clearly going to have to try both and make a decision on that.

My first V8V has "Comfort" suspension which I think is better than the "Sports" suspension found in my V8VS down A + B roads and country lanes. The Sports suspension is far from being a disaster, but naturally harsher and can make you think twice about pressing on on anything but immaculate (ie. Welsh ) Tarmac.

Any later V8 Vantage (non-S, N430 and S) can be fitted with either, so try both and check before you buy.

Sports seats are rare, but worth looking out for. The standard seats are not perfectly comfortable even though adjustable in quite a few ways. Retro-fitting is probably the same cost as trading-in.

ICE units continually improved (especially sat nav, although I always just use the mobile + Google maps anyway). The 700W Premium stereo is a nice addition as are memory seats and cruise control.

You need to buy yourself "The Definitive Guide to Gaydon-era ASTON MARTIN" - see the pinned topic in AM section: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&...

[nickv8]

Emilio Largo said:

Number Eight said:

I'm a complete luddite, don't use sat nav and still have CDs ...

Warning: You won´t be able to play CDs in a MY16 onwards. There is no CD player any more

...or 8 track

[CSK1]

nickv8 said:

Sports seats are rare, but worth looking out for. The standard seats are not perfectly comfortable even though adjustable in quite a few ways. Retro-fitting is probably the same cost as trading-in.

Sports seats are actually the standard seats.
The optional carbon bucket seats are the Lightweight seats that were an optional extra.