Aston set to replace AMG V8 with hybrid V6
Discussion
AWV12 said:
If true, then even less people will go for an Aston I am afraid.....
Could you explain the logic? For 3 years, there's been constant complaining about the AMG origins of the current V8. Given the requirements of emissions legislation, downsizing and hybridization are a requirement of all car makers. For Aston Martin to achieve that, an engine designed and built in-house, ought to be a huge positive. It's not buying in someone else's kit - it's developing its own, with staff based at the factory. It's not a Porsche feasibility study, or a Cosworth job, it's the same team that developed the AE31 V12 (an engine that despite being Aston's own, people seem to think is from Mercedes when it doesn't share anything with the M275 / S65).
I really don't see what there is to be negative about it. Perhaps when the dyno numbers are public knowledge, it'll become more accepted.
Jon,
You say 'in house'.
I seem to remember recently reading, that the V12 build is going to be transferred from Cologne to the UK. I wondered if that might perhaps involve Cosworth or Ricardo.
Had not expected such a undertaking to be by AM itself.
Great news.
My DD is a V6. The engine is smooth and very quiet as It is meant to be, but it makes a great rumble at start up, so there should be potential for a V6 to make an AML sound.
Edited by Jon39 on Tuesday 10th March 08:25
Jon39 said:
Jon,
You say 'in house'.
I seem to remember recently reading, that the V12 build is going to be transferred from Cologne to the UK. I wondered if that might perhaps involve Cosworth or Ricardo.
Had not expected such a undertaking to be by AM itself.
Great news.
My DD is a V6. The engine is smooth and very quiet as It is meant to be, but it makes a great rumble at start up, so there should be potential for a V6 to make an AML sound.
Edited by Jon39 on Tuesday 10th March 08:25
Without complicating it too much, there's 3 branches to the engine development tree:
- The M177 V8 - arrives from AMG and has the induction and ECU parts switched. This was a calibration exercise by AM and produces ample power and a good soundtrack. It was more complex than it sounds because where you'd appreciate the logic documents and data associated with the engine, AMG provided an engine and little accompanying paperwork, meaning reverse engineering the ECU to work out how it worked, to then develop a new one.
- The AE31 (Twin-turbo 5.2 V12) - started life in the launch edition DB11 - was derived from the AM29 and designed at Gaydon, built in Cologne.
- The V6 hybrid - derived from the AE31 and designed by the same team that did the AE31, but with sprinklings of Valkyrie (Cosworth) and Valhalla - mainly the hybrid aspects I think. Ricardo's involvement IIRC was the transmission for Valkyrie. Speaking of which, the 9 speed Merc sourced box in the DBX is apparently pretty special, that could find its way into other products.
The AE31 also has more to be unleashed, so the future's bright IMO. I'd like to think that the Vantage having a home grown engine in it, will satisfy those who've been outspoken about the use of outsourced engines, but the Vantage has had a tough life so far, and faces a tough audience.
In the same way that early Gaydon cars alienated some NP customers, the new Gaydon cars seem to have alienated the last gen customers - I don't believe it's possible to please every customer, all the time, but viewed objectively, the product range at the moment is pretty good.
CB07 said:
Would be good to see the Vantage with V6 Hybrid in a couple of states of tune, as in a properly affordable entry level specification with mild hybrid 500bhp, a more powerful AMR version 600bhp, and then an all out bonkers V12S 700bhp version. Or is that what they are planning?
I don't believe we'd see any V6 Vantage with a power output less than that of the V8 it replaces. It would also mean any V12 variant (which might or might not happen) would be in quite a savage state of tune to put some distance between it and the 'lesser' engine i.e. V8 DB11 to DB11 AMR, as the V6 with hybrid assistance, would be ample in most scenarios.It's an exciting time, and like the DBX, it's a big step that will reap rewards, perhaps not immediately, but it gets the model range somewhat more 'purebred', which should satisfy some who had become disillusioned by the interim measures put in place when the company needed to make big steps with some outside help.
It's been said on here before, but the 6.0 and 5.2 V12 blocks are cast in Shropshire before shipping to Germany for construction into a fully featured engine (all ancilliaries fitted) and then shipped back to Garden for assembly into vehicle.
So the production of V12 has always been more complex than AMEP simply constructing end-to-end.
So the production of V12 has always been more complex than AMEP simply constructing end-to-end.
XXXAngelXXX said:
Can't beat the sound of the V8 or V12 - the V6 sounds like an Dyson - i bought my DB11 just for the sound of the V8 - wouldn't have bought it for a V6.
Possibly 'some' V6s don't sound special, however If it sounds half as good as a Busso V6 I am sure it will do well! I am confident Aston will do their level best to make it sound suitably Aston!
I genuinely still think my V6 F type sounded better than my current new vantage. Ok it was supercharged not turbo'd so the exhausts were unrestricted, but it just had this pitch to it under load like an old race car. The V8 in the vantage is much louder on tickover and slower speeds but I don't think there's anything in it at the top. I'd love a V6 Aston!
CB07 said:
Would be good to see the Vantage with V6 Hybrid in a couple of states of tune, as in a properly affordable entry level specification with mild hybrid 500bhp, a more powerful AMR version 600bhp, and then an all out bonkers V12S 700bhp version. Or is that what they are planning?
This v6 hybrid set up is stated to have a combined 1,000hp in valhalla so they have scope to do whatever they want powerwise in new vanquish and vantage - however savage, the v12 can't get close to that output. Miles was on the carfection video at geneva last year explaining de-tuned versions would appear in the more mainstream production AstonsI see several posts that appear to be inferring Aston have gone down this route because they couldn't get to where they wanted with the Merc V8. I'd suggest that's the wrong way round - Aston haven't suddenly decided to go down this V6 hybrid route. It must have been planned for at least a couple of years now - just think how long ago valhalla was being marketed with the V6 hybrid engine. Which in turn means the Merc engine supply was only ever a temporary stop gap until the V6 arrived, as the Aston V8 had got as far as it could be developed and was never going to be good enough for new vantage or DB11
As an aside, I wonder if people will stop saying Merc are the natural long term buyer of Aston once it's only some Merc electronics and not the Merc engines which Aston are using
Edited by jonby on Tuesday 10th March 10:46
jonby said:
This v6 hybrid set up is stated to have a combined 1,000hp in valhalla so they have scope to do whatever they want powerwise in new vanquish and vantage - however savage, the v12 can't get close to that output. Miles was on the carfection video at geneva last year explaining de-tuned versions would appear in the more mainstream production Astons
I see several posts that appear to be inferring Aston have gone down this route because they couldn't get to where they wanted with the Merc V8. I'd suggest that's the wrong way round - Aston haven't suddenly decided to go down this V6 hybrid route. It must have been planned for at least a couple of years now - just think how long ago valhalla was being marketed with the V6 hybrid engine. Which in turn means the Merc engine supply was only ever a temporary stop gap until the V6 arrived, as the Aston V8 had got as far as it could be developed and was never going to be good enough for new vantage or DB11
As an aside, I wonder if people will stop saying Merc are the natural long term buyer of Aston once it's only some Merc electronics and not the Merc engines which Aston are using
Totally agree. The other issue to take into account; Mercedes are not supplying engines to AML as a charitable exercise (despite the <5% stake Daimler currently owns). They're not cheap (nor is the electronics), so switching back to an in-house engine probably makes sense from an economics perspective tooI see several posts that appear to be inferring Aston have gone down this route because they couldn't get to where they wanted with the Merc V8. I'd suggest that's the wrong way round - Aston haven't suddenly decided to go down this V6 hybrid route. It must have been planned for at least a couple of years now - just think how long ago valhalla was being marketed with the V6 hybrid engine. Which in turn means the Merc engine supply was only ever a temporary stop gap until the V6 arrived, as the Aston V8 had got as far as it could be developed and was never going to be good enough for new vantage or DB11
As an aside, I wonder if people will stop saying Merc are the natural long term buyer of Aston once it's only some Merc electronics and not the Merc engines which Aston are using
Edited by jonby on Tuesday 10th March 10:46
Jon39 said:
To replace a V8 with a V6 hybrid must involve fairly complex engineering, including battery location.
Therefore my guess would be, we will see the V6 introduced with the launch of new models.
If APs 7x7 plan remains in place, then Gen 3 Vantage is 2025 (perhaps).
Of course they won't say it's the same engine - they will do a mclaren and say x% of components are different / all new, but everyone understands the point
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