Aston Martin Electric Cars
Discussion
The electric version of the Rapide was being developed for a long time, with the help of Williams Advanced Engineering.
It was to be a limited production model. Orders were taken and the owners were to become involved in the project, by reporting their own experiences to Aston Martin.
Shortly before the first customer delivery was expected, the whole project was put on hold. I think since then, it might have officially been abandoned.
The whole electrification process appears to be so difficult for the motor industry. Aston Martin has internal and external engineering expertise available, so this is the question.
How is it possible for a miniscule Welsh business, to produce a roadgoing 600 bhp electric car? The road trip shown in this film looks exhilarating.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DXGKt8sK8CQ
Because it does not need to comply with 2020 safety standards or 2020 expectations of the owners, like power steering!
The regs apply to the year the car was built, and I assume he is driving it on an "any car" motor trade policy. Try getting a quote for a 600 bhp, 1970's modified car.
It looks great fun and good that he has built it, but I imagine the novelty would soon wear off.
I believe someone has done the same to a DB5?
The regs apply to the year the car was built, and I assume he is driving it on an "any car" motor trade policy. Try getting a quote for a 600 bhp, 1970's modified car.
It looks great fun and good that he has built it, but I imagine the novelty would soon wear off.
I believe someone has done the same to a DB5?
There's been a couple of interviews in recent days with TM; EV's were mentioned - currently the intention is that Aston Martin launches an AM branded EV in 2025 - 2026, using Mercedes BEV technology. Lagonda is destined for something different to the all EV future that was initially being looked at (who knows what that is). The RapidE has indeed been canned, but that brief tie-up with Williams AE did bring some knowledge from F1 that will prove useful. Of course Williams F1 use AMG power units in F1, and that's still the top dog in the paddock as a power unit, so it's already had some exposure and access to the best performance hybrid cookie jar. Currently, DBX is meant to come in hybrid form in 2023 AFAIK.
Regarding the EV Beetle; firms with EV West in the US are offering retrofit kits to classic cars (which I quite like as an idea - small cars need less grunt to shunt them around). Beetles, Classic 911's and the like with Tesla motors (and then there's the UK equivalent like the Classic Mini on the PH front page today). I toyed with the idea of building a Restomod 964 with Tesla bits once I've finished the Vette. As a concept it interests me - keeping old cars from a different time, on the road with green credentials (it's a good way of getting around the car shaming that will become increasingly prevalent in future years).
I suspect the issue becomes crash structures on these cars - generally they pre-date NCAP safety ratings, and lithium batteries are somewhat volatile when damaged and fires are difficult to put out (part of the reason BEV's are banned from certain race classes as fires have a tendency of melting the race track quite quickly).
Regarding the EV Beetle; firms with EV West in the US are offering retrofit kits to classic cars (which I quite like as an idea - small cars need less grunt to shunt them around). Beetles, Classic 911's and the like with Tesla motors (and then there's the UK equivalent like the Classic Mini on the PH front page today). I toyed with the idea of building a Restomod 964 with Tesla bits once I've finished the Vette. As a concept it interests me - keeping old cars from a different time, on the road with green credentials (it's a good way of getting around the car shaming that will become increasingly prevalent in future years).
I suspect the issue becomes crash structures on these cars - generally they pre-date NCAP safety ratings, and lithium batteries are somewhat volatile when damaged and fires are difficult to put out (part of the reason BEV's are banned from certain race classes as fires have a tendency of melting the race track quite quickly).
Jon39 said:
How is it possible for a miniscule Welsh business, to produce a roadgoing 600 bhp electric car? The road trip shown in this film looks exhilarating.
It's really a one-off project car; no different for the guy that LS-swapped a Vantage to give a 700bhp car; other countries have strict Type Approval for cars that run on the road. You'd probably struggle to get that Beetle type approved even for limited series production. I'm not taking anything away from the guy that did the work as he clearly knows electric cars.
As the others have said its pretty straight forward for one offs.
Rich Rebuilds on youtube is currently converting a mini (bmw) to an EV, total budget 5k including the car. He's gone DC instead of AC and has some interesting problems to overcome, one being the brake vacuum boost system. The steering is electric so pretty straight forward.
The Rapide-E looked a good project and it was a real shame it got cancelled
Rich Rebuilds on youtube is currently converting a mini (bmw) to an EV, total budget 5k including the car. He's gone DC instead of AC and has some interesting problems to overcome, one being the brake vacuum boost system. The steering is electric so pretty straight forward.
The Rapide-E looked a good project and it was a real shame it got cancelled
NFC 85 Vette said:
I toyed with the idea of building a Restomod 964 with Tesla bits once I've finished the Vette.
I keep thinking about a 3100 pickup. Batteries in the chassis / bed below the rear deck. Make the engine bay into a nice sealed storage area and you'd have a great car on your hands. SWMBO say - first the house renovation and then I need a bigger garage Edited by dbs2000 on Thursday 5th November 10:33
NFC 85 Vette said:
There's been a couple of interviews in recent days with TM; EV's were mentioned - currently the intention is that Aston Martin launches an AM branded EV in 2025 - 2026, using Mercedes BEV technology. Lagonda is destined for something different to the all EV future that was initially being looked at (who knows what that is). The RapidE has indeed been canned, but that brief tie-up with Williams AE did bring some knowledge from F1 that will prove useful. Of course Williams F1 use AMG power units in F1, and that's still the top dog in the paddock as a power unit, so it's already had some exposure and access to the best performance hybrid cookie jar. Currently, DBX is meant to come in hybrid form in 2023 AFAIK.
Regarding the EV Beetle; firms with EV West in the US are offering retrofit kits to classic cars (which I quite like as an idea - small cars need less grunt to shunt them around). Beetles, Classic 911's and the like with Tesla motors (and then there's the UK equivalent like the Classic Mini on the PH front page today). I toyed with the idea of building a Restomod 964 with Tesla bits once I've finished the Vette. As a concept it interests me - keeping old cars from a different time, on the road with green credentials (it's a good way of getting around the car shaming that will become increasingly prevalent in future years).
I suspect the issue becomes crash structures on these cars - generally they pre-date NCAP safety ratings, and lithium batteries are somewhat volatile when damaged and fires are difficult to put out (part of the reason BEV's are banned from certain race classes as fires have a tendency of melting the race track quite quickly).
Very interesting indeed, I’m guessing what with this eventual ICE ban taking place Aston Martin won’t be selling (or making?) any cars in the UK with an engine? Are they small enough to escape this do you think? Ie would the government allow car makers under a certain size to still produce and sell cars with an ICE ? I just cannot see the appeal of an Aston (Or Ferrari for that matter) without and engine!Regarding the EV Beetle; firms with EV West in the US are offering retrofit kits to classic cars (which I quite like as an idea - small cars need less grunt to shunt them around). Beetles, Classic 911's and the like with Tesla motors (and then there's the UK equivalent like the Classic Mini on the PH front page today). I toyed with the idea of building a Restomod 964 with Tesla bits once I've finished the Vette. As a concept it interests me - keeping old cars from a different time, on the road with green credentials (it's a good way of getting around the car shaming that will become increasingly prevalent in future years).
I suspect the issue becomes crash structures on these cars - generally they pre-date NCAP safety ratings, and lithium batteries are somewhat volatile when damaged and fires are difficult to put out (part of the reason BEV's are banned from certain race classes as fires have a tendency of melting the race track quite quickly).
Piston Ted said:
Very interesting indeed, I’m guessing what with this eventual ICE ban taking place Aston Martin won’t be selling (or making?) any cars in the UK with an engine? Are they small enough to escape this do you think? Ie would the government allow car makers under a certain size to still produce and sell cars with an ICE ? I just cannot see the appeal of an Aston (Or Ferrari for that matter) without and engine!
The timeline as it stands gives the low volume car makers a bit of time - in the interim they can set derogation targets where they comply with an agreed Co2 output target above the 95g/km that major car makers need to comply with in the coming years.On a long enough timeline though, no matter how small or how low volume a car maker is, petrol fueled engines will not be a viable option any longer. I say petrol fueled rather than ICE all together, because if a synthetic fuel was developed that could demonstrate it A) was renewable and B) wasn't polluting like fossil fuels are, it would give the internal combustion engine a second chance.
As it stands though, as much as engines improve, become more efficient and less polluting, the agenda is to push them out and force consumers into EV's. That's driven by governments and climate change lobbyists though, the car makers are simply reacting to that in order to still have products it can sell. Even PHEV's are seen as bad news despite them being a very necessary intermediate step until either BEV's have the range and charging speed to make them truly viable in our ever-demanding world, or something like hydrogen fuel cell technology comes online.
NFC 85 Vette said:
Just to add that the government's likely to announce this week that the deadline has been brought forward, and a ban on car makers selling new ICE cars will start in 2030, with PHEV's still allowed until 2035 - when they'll be banned, and everything on the road must be BEV. There's no mention of low volume makers being given any wiggle room.
Not great news for the enthusiast, but there's little point in denying the reality that this change is coming, and car makers can either adapt or die.
this is incorrect, ONLY new cars sold have to be electric, cars already on the road can stay, they will never in my lifetime stop ICE cars, not everybody can afford to buy one for a startNot great news for the enthusiast, but there's little point in denying the reality that this change is coming, and car makers can either adapt or die.
The V12 Way said:
this is incorrect, ONLY new cars sold have to be electric, cars already on the road can stay, they will never in my lifetime stop ICE cars, not everybody can afford to buy one for a start
My apologies, I've deleted my post - was referring to newly registered cars only, but worded it poorly.Sorry.
No more new IC cars in 9 years time in the UK.
A new small Honda electric car; £26,000 and range 130 miles.
Ford Fiesta perrol - £14,000 and range 820 miles.
At motorway service areas, will hundreds of electric car drivers have to wait in queues, for a charger to becomes available.
33,000,000 passenger cars now on UK roads.
170,000 electric cars now on UK roads.
Tough targets are always needed to push for results, but is just 9 years even realistic, or achievable?
There seem to be so many questions.
hyphen said:
Jon39 said:
No more new IC cars in 9 years time in the UK.
No more standalone ICE cars is the talk, so hybrid-ICE will still be fine.
Yes, so I heard.
If the push for 'green' cars really is the main priority, then hybrids may not be as green as they appear.
I know some users of hybrid-ICE cars, who have never connected the charger cable since having their new car.
"Why should I use my own electricity, for my employers vehicle?"
They just use the car as a petrol only car.
The reason for them choosing hybrid, was only to avoid the Benefit in Kind employee tax, which is charged on having an employer owned vehicle.
NFC 85 Vette said:
Piston Ted said:
Very interesting indeed, I’m guessing what with this eventual ICE ban taking place Aston Martin won’t be selling (or making?) any cars in the UK with an engine? Are they small enough to escape this do you think? Ie would the government allow car makers under a certain size to still produce and sell cars with an ICE ? I just cannot see the appeal of an Aston (Or Ferrari for that matter) without and engine!
The timeline as it stands gives the low volume car makers a bit of time - in the interim they can set derogation targets where they comply with an agreed Co2 output target above the 95g/km that major car makers need to comply with in the coming years.On a long enough timeline though, no matter how small or how low volume a car maker is, petrol fueled engines will not be a viable option any longer. I say petrol fueled rather than ICE all together, because if a synthetic fuel was developed that could demonstrate it A) was renewable and B) wasn't polluting like fossil fuels are, it would give the internal combustion engine a second chance.
As it stands though, as much as engines improve, become more efficient and less polluting, the agenda is to push them out and force consumers into EV's. That's driven by governments and climate change lobbyists though, the car makers are simply reacting to that in order to still have products it can sell. Even PHEV's are seen as bad news despite them being a very necessary intermediate step until either BEV's have the range and charging speed to make them truly viable in our ever-demanding world, or something like hydrogen fuel cell technology comes online.
It’s an interesting point that you make regarding synthetic fuel, a quick Google on the subject reveals that Mazda, Audi, Bosch and Porsche have/are researching into the possibility of ‘e fuels’ with the Porsche R&D boss claiming that around 70% of their cars ever built are still on the roads which would I imagine be a similar scenario for Aston. Fuels Europe is another body that believes its better to evolve the transport network by changing the fuel not the power plant, which I guess kind of makes sense, e fuel can be used in existing cars, existing fuel stations and tankers and (so say the claims) carbon neutral to produce and carbon neutral at tail pipe.
Like you say though it’s driven by the environmentalists & governments (presumably in the most part reacting to them) I do wonder whether performance car companies such as Aston actually want this, I’d like to think that the people in the management teams no matter how young or environmentally aware they may be have chosen a career in that company because ultimately they are petrol heads at heart and they would try to resist it for as long as they could. I guess though the rules are the rules and they either comply or go under, shame. Brave new world and all that.
Piston Ted said:
Thanks for your reply (your posts are always a pleasure to read btw!)
It’s an interesting point that you make regarding synthetic fuel, a quick Google on the subject reveals that Mazda, Audi, Bosch and Porsche have/are researching into the possibility of ‘e fuels’ with the Porsche R&D boss claiming that around 70% of their cars ever built are still on the roads which would I imagine be a similar scenario for Aston. Fuels Europe is another body that believes its better to evolve the transport network by changing the fuel not the power plant, which I guess kind of makes sense, e fuel can be used in existing cars, existing fuel stations and tankers and (so say the claims) carbon neutral to produce and carbon neutral at tail pipe.
Like you say though it’s driven by the environmentalists & governments (presumably in the most part reacting to them) I do wonder whether performance car companies such as Aston actually want this, I’d like to think that the people in the management teams no matter how young or environmentally aware they may be have chosen a career in that company because ultimately they are petrol heads at heart and they would try to resist it for as long as they could. I guess though the rules are the rules and they either comply or go under, shame. Brave new world and all that.
If you asked the car makers, I expect very few are pleased about the goal posts being moved so quickly - they're racing to develop the technology quick enough that it can hit the market and eventually be at a price that consumers can afford. In 2019 VW spent 14.3bn Euros on R&D - it can only claw that back by charging the consumer, so early adopters are paying a premium for technology that's moving at such a pace that year on year, improvements in BEV range and charging speed are quite noticeable. It’s an interesting point that you make regarding synthetic fuel, a quick Google on the subject reveals that Mazda, Audi, Bosch and Porsche have/are researching into the possibility of ‘e fuels’ with the Porsche R&D boss claiming that around 70% of their cars ever built are still on the roads which would I imagine be a similar scenario for Aston. Fuels Europe is another body that believes its better to evolve the transport network by changing the fuel not the power plant, which I guess kind of makes sense, e fuel can be used in existing cars, existing fuel stations and tankers and (so say the claims) carbon neutral to produce and carbon neutral at tail pipe.
Like you say though it’s driven by the environmentalists & governments (presumably in the most part reacting to them) I do wonder whether performance car companies such as Aston actually want this, I’d like to think that the people in the management teams no matter how young or environmentally aware they may be have chosen a career in that company because ultimately they are petrol heads at heart and they would try to resist it for as long as they could. I guess though the rules are the rules and they either comply or go under, shame. Brave new world and all that.
It's why the small volume car makers with no parent company need to buy-in the technology - it's absolutely ruinous financially to develop in-house and much cheaper to buy-in and re-purpose. It also leap frogs the R&D timeline (something Aston desperately needed, but the use of Mercedes hybrid tech will remain frowned upon - there's no real alternative other than closing the doors at Gaydon and St Athan and calling it a day when we get to 2035, but I don't think anyone wants that).
I've tried to read up on synthetic fuels but there isn't much out there it seems (Bosch's website is a bit wishy washy on detail). F1 recently announced it is looking into synthetic fuels because it's probably the only way that the ICE can remain while there's all the virtue signalling about pushing to be carbon neutral. It's a tricky situation for them - seen as the pinnacle of R&D for motor cars, but accused of killing the planet by driving 20 cars around in circles for 2 hours on a Sunday afternoon. The truth is that most harvesting and brake regen knowledge has come from what's been learnt in the last 7 years of the turbo-hybrid era, so F1 still has a place in the world and is a very public test bed for future automotive technology.
I find it baffling that PHEV's are being dismissed by governments and only receiving an extra 5 years - they're the shining light in all this legislative chaos. Some of it I think stems from where car makers of exotic / high performance cars have gone the hybrid route, but simply to make cars quicker, not necessarily more efficient. The Holy Trinity of Hypercars (LaF, P1, 918) were something of a two-finger salute to the environmental segment of society, be it intentional or not.
The glass half-full approach to what the world will be like in 2035, once new ICE's and hybrids are banned - is that ICE equipped cars produced before the ban, will still be allowed to be driven. Some liken it to how horses went from being a mode of transport to a pleasure pursuit. The difference is that horses weren't banned, they were made obsolete by a better mode of transport (and I bet that at the time, some insisted they wanted to keep their horse because it was a better experience).
Perhaps the question is how much will it cost to run an ICE equipped car after the ban is introduced. How much duty will be on petrol to deter enthusiasts from putting a few thousand miles on a manual V12 Vantage? The government would enjoy taxing motorists at 'dirty petrol' pumps, much as they're looking at taxing on an annual mileage basis - because when enough transition to sub £40k BEV's, the VED piggy bank wont fill up nearly as quickly as they'd like.
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