Discussion
I know brake squeal has been discussed many times before, but I've done just about everything suggested in previous threads with no luck.
My 2005 DB9 has long suffered from squealing brakes. I started by applying BG Stop Squeal to the original Pagid pads and grease/anti-sieze on the backs. That didn't do anything, so I got serious and switched to Porterfield R4-S pads and addressed the rotors (new rear, resurfaced front). I put anti-sieze on the back of the new pads, but I didn't apply Stop Squeal because I really didn't think I'd need it. It was OK for a while but the squeal has returned. It seems to be mostly from the left rear, and I noticed a groove in that rotor that made me think a pebble or something was caught and causing the squeal. I didn't find the pebble, but I went ahead and put some Stop Squeal on the pads while I was in there. No difference. I will say that the Stop Squeal didn't really soak in and that it seemed to float on the surface - indicative of glazing perhaps?
In general, the first couple stops from cold are OK, and if I wash the car they're quiet for the rest of the drive home. Based on that, I once tried repeatedly wetting the rotors until they were really good and rusty, and that worked for about two days. I've tried some aggressive braking, forward and reverse, but like everything else results are short-lived. I've never done the full bedding in procedure. The Porterfields aren't supposed to need it, and frankly I have my doubts about the engine surviving a trip to the kind of speed required to get rough with the brakes.
What else is there to try?
My 2005 DB9 has long suffered from squealing brakes. I started by applying BG Stop Squeal to the original Pagid pads and grease/anti-sieze on the backs. That didn't do anything, so I got serious and switched to Porterfield R4-S pads and addressed the rotors (new rear, resurfaced front). I put anti-sieze on the back of the new pads, but I didn't apply Stop Squeal because I really didn't think I'd need it. It was OK for a while but the squeal has returned. It seems to be mostly from the left rear, and I noticed a groove in that rotor that made me think a pebble or something was caught and causing the squeal. I didn't find the pebble, but I went ahead and put some Stop Squeal on the pads while I was in there. No difference. I will say that the Stop Squeal didn't really soak in and that it seemed to float on the surface - indicative of glazing perhaps?
In general, the first couple stops from cold are OK, and if I wash the car they're quiet for the rest of the drive home. Based on that, I once tried repeatedly wetting the rotors until they were really good and rusty, and that worked for about two days. I've tried some aggressive braking, forward and reverse, but like everything else results are short-lived. I've never done the full bedding in procedure. The Porterfields aren't supposed to need it, and frankly I have my doubts about the engine surviving a trip to the kind of speed required to get rough with the brakes.
What else is there to try?
The only thing I can suggest that you did not already mentioned, are the anti-squeal shims.
I had an incredibly bad squeal on my N420 when I put EBC Yellow on the back. But also because I forgot to put back the anti-squeal shims when I switched pads.
It was awful, like you could hear me braking from the moon.
Since they were very ruined (the brake pistons basically pierced them), instead of putting back those I ordered new ones I think from AM Works. I had a very slight squeal for a couple weeks, basically the last half-turn of the wheel, then silence. I never bothered with grease and such.
Long story short, try to replace those shims, they are very inexpensive. Here is a pic of mine, you can see how used they were. I removed the old ones from the metal structure, cleaned everything and glued the new ones then applied them on the back of pads.
I had an incredibly bad squeal on my N420 when I put EBC Yellow on the back. But also because I forgot to put back the anti-squeal shims when I switched pads.
It was awful, like you could hear me braking from the moon.Since they were very ruined (the brake pistons basically pierced them), instead of putting back those I ordered new ones I think from AM Works. I had a very slight squeal for a couple weeks, basically the last half-turn of the wheel, then silence. I never bothered with grease and such.
Long story short, try to replace those shims, they are very inexpensive. Here is a pic of mine, you can see how used they were. I removed the old ones from the metal structure, cleaned everything and glued the new ones then applied them on the back of pads.
Edited by EVR on Wednesday 9th December 10:28
So far (8 yesrs) I have only had brake squeal on very rare occasions.
You mentioned, 'I've tried some aggressive braking, forward and reverse, but like everything else results are short-lived'.
Your reference to reverse, makes me think the speed involved could not be very high.
I make a point of always including one instance of heavy braking from high speed, when driving my Vantage. Perhaps that is what has kept the problem away for me. I think I read that continually braking reasonably gently, can result in a 'glaze' on the discs. Don't know whether that is really true.
If you wish, on an empty road, you could try two or three gentle brakes first, to heat the brake components, then a really heavy brake from high speed. Who knows, it might cure your problem.
I have always had brake squeal on my 2005 DB9. The only time it disappeared for any length of time was during and after a European road trip involving lots of mileage and full-lock turns. The squeal came back again in two months.
i have thought of trying to mimic the full-lock turns in an empty supermarket car park at night. But the thought of explaining it to the police, or simply looking a knob has prevented me from trying it.
I am due to get new rotors next year, so will see how we do after that.
i have thought of trying to mimic the full-lock turns in an empty supermarket car park at night. But the thought of explaining it to the police, or simply looking a knob has prevented me from trying it.
I am due to get new rotors next year, so will see how we do after that.
Assuming the rear pads have chamfered edges (if none use a file and make them along the front and rear edges at roughly 45 degrees), the use of an anti-squeal shim should help as shown above. The carrier where the pads sit must be clean and rust free. Use copper grease and apply along the edges of the pads. Apply a thin layer over the back of the pad then place the shim on top. Apply another layer of copper grease to the shim so in effect you have a sandwich. Clean any dirt/corrosion from the pistons and the caliper where it pulls on the outer pad then apply a thin layer to these surfaces.
This has worked for me even on the dreaded Mercs and for which Ceratec was produced. Bear in mind that Pagid pads tend to be softer than some other makes and result in more brake dust but do give better braking even when cold.
This has worked for me even on the dreaded Mercs and for which Ceratec was produced. Bear in mind that Pagid pads tend to be softer than some other makes and result in more brake dust but do give better braking even when cold.
As I recall the tabs on the shims wouldn't fit over the new pads, so I had to leave them off. I probably kept them so I could try adjusting the tabs to fit. If not, is there a source for shims alone without having to buy more pads?
You are correct that aggressive braking in reverse is not from any great speed. It's more an attempt to reverse the wear pattern. Forward braking is from a higher speed, but nothing crazy. My basic problem with this approach is that if gentle braking is the cause of the problem, through glazed discs or whatever, then sooner or later it's going to come back after I go back to my usual driving habits. I'm looking for a long-term solution that works with light to moderate braking.
The Porterfield pads have chamfered edges from the factory, so nothing to do there. I'm definitely not inclined to return to the Pagids. Noise and performance were similar, but the dust was genuinely appalling. The wash interval for the entire car was usually determined by brake dust, and it didn't take long.
I'm reluctant to get too generous with grease, mostly because it makes such a mess of subsequent brake work, but at this point I'm willing to try anything.
You are correct that aggressive braking in reverse is not from any great speed. It's more an attempt to reverse the wear pattern. Forward braking is from a higher speed, but nothing crazy. My basic problem with this approach is that if gentle braking is the cause of the problem, through glazed discs or whatever, then sooner or later it's going to come back after I go back to my usual driving habits. I'm looking for a long-term solution that works with light to moderate braking.
The Porterfield pads have chamfered edges from the factory, so nothing to do there. I'm definitely not inclined to return to the Pagids. Noise and performance were similar, but the dust was genuinely appalling. The wash interval for the entire car was usually determined by brake dust, and it didn't take long.
I'm reluctant to get too generous with grease, mostly because it makes such a mess of subsequent brake work, but at this point I'm willing to try anything.
PrAston said:
As I recall the tabs on the shims wouldn't fit over the new pads, so I had to leave them off. I probably kept them so I could try adjusting the tabs to fit. If not, is there a source for shims alone without having to buy more pads?
Try again AM Works, even if I fear the metal shim structure is part of the pad. It is weird though that this structure would not fit new pads, they are the same shape to fit the car, no?One would think so, but I think the backing plate was bigger in the direction of the outside of the caliper. The shims had tabs that clipped on to the backing plate, and they wouldn't fit. It's been a while so I don't remember how far off it was, but it definitely wasn't a straight swap.
They are just bits of sheet metal, so I suppose I could fabricate some easily enough.
They are just bits of sheet metal, so I suppose I could fabricate some easily enough.
I had the same problem with R4-Ss. I don’t think the standard bedding in procedures worked on my discs as you could still see parts of the disc that weren’t contacting the pad (and presumably causing the squeal).
I used the same lubricant as mentioned above on the pins/backs.
A track day sorted it out for me after a couple of laps. I couldn’t bed them in successfully on the road, and do wonder if it was the combination of lock to lock steering which did it (as above). I don’t know why this would be the case though.
I used the same lubricant as mentioned above on the pins/backs.
A track day sorted it out for me after a couple of laps. I couldn’t bed them in successfully on the road, and do wonder if it was the combination of lock to lock steering which did it (as above). I don’t know why this would be the case though.
I never did find the rear shims, so I probably never had them. I can't seem to find any rear pads that come with them either. The only shims I've found at all were some titanium ones meant as a heat shield for race applications. They're pricey, but it seems to be either that, or make some.
I also did my best to bed them in. I went to a long, winding, downhill section of road and did some hard braking from 90MPH+ The brakes got hot enough to smell, and the appearance of the rotors changed visibly from a deep, chromelike shine to more of a pale, dull silver. It made no difference. Next drive, they were squealing like pigs as usual.
There is a groove running across the middle of the pads - would chamfering that help at all?
What controls the brake balance front/rear? I highly doubt it's adjustable, but it would be nice to either bias the rears more, so that they make firmer and thus quieter contact in normal braking, or to bias the front to the point where the rears don't even make contact on a light pedal. If that sounds desperate and potentially dangerous, it is. But I've reached a point where I would gladly trade performance & safety for peace & quiet.
I also did my best to bed them in. I went to a long, winding, downhill section of road and did some hard braking from 90MPH+ The brakes got hot enough to smell, and the appearance of the rotors changed visibly from a deep, chromelike shine to more of a pale, dull silver. It made no difference. Next drive, they were squealing like pigs as usual.
There is a groove running across the middle of the pads - would chamfering that help at all?
What controls the brake balance front/rear? I highly doubt it's adjustable, but it would be nice to either bias the rears more, so that they make firmer and thus quieter contact in normal braking, or to bias the front to the point where the rears don't even make contact on a light pedal. If that sounds desperate and potentially dangerous, it is. But I've reached a point where I would gladly trade performance & safety for peace & quiet.
Ceratec was originally made to stop squeal on some Mercedes cars. Must be worth trying it on your car now. Mintex product.
https://mintex.com/copper-slip-vs-ceratec/?lang=en...
https://mintex.com/copper-slip-vs-ceratec/?lang=en...
Ah, indeed. I have had the anti-squeal inserts and they are good.I have well bedded in EBC Blue with the spring metal plates and they sealed until a track day and now not at all. So I think that the anti-squeal pates (if you can get the clearance to squeeze them in) are the best but with newish discs and new pads you'll only fit in the metal ones - but you DO need them. And some serious bedding in.
I am in the process of rebuilding my calipers and find pitting in the alloy casting on the bottom rails, where the side of the pads run, and there is a machined flat. Well, there was! I understand that using copperslip on aluminium alloy can exacerbate this, so am using a metal-free brake grease from now on... Textar CeraTec or similar.
I am in the process of rebuilding my calipers and find pitting in the alloy casting on the bottom rails, where the side of the pads run, and there is a machined flat. Well, there was! I understand that using copperslip on aluminium alloy can exacerbate this, so am using a metal-free brake grease from now on... Textar CeraTec or similar.
vernierMike said:
Ah, indeed. I have had the anti-squeal inserts and they are good.I have well bedded in EBC Blue with the spring metal plates and they sealed until a track day and now not at all. So I think that the anti-squeal pates (if you can get the clearance to squeeze them in) are the best but with newish discs and new pads you'll only fit in the metal ones - but you DO need them. And some serious bedding in.
I am in the process of rebuilding my calipers and find pitting in the alloy casting on the bottom rails, where the side of the pads run, and there is a machined flat. Well, there was! I understand that using copperslip on aluminium alloy can exacerbate this, so am using a metal-free brake grease from now on... Textar CeraTec or similar.
I guess my Google-Fu is weak, but can someone point me in the direction of a source for new shims? Or an inexpensive set of pads that include them? I hate to spend $400 on a set of OEM pads I'll never use just to get the shims. Looks like the EBC Red might be the way to go there, but some pictures show shims, others don't, so I'm not 100% sure they're included. I am in the process of rebuilding my calipers and find pitting in the alloy casting on the bottom rails, where the side of the pads run, and there is a machined flat. Well, there was! I understand that using copperslip on aluminium alloy can exacerbate this, so am using a metal-free brake grease from now on... Textar CeraTec or similar.
As for bedding in, I feel I've done all I can do. I think the engine would blow if I drove it any harder.
I don't recall exactly what kind of brake grease I used, probably the blue Permatex stuff, but it definitely wasn't copper.
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