Should V12V gearbox whine more in 6th than 5th?

[Astonviewer]

My 2013 V12V (6-speed) bought in Aug 2019 is fabulous but sadly not able to use it much lately due to lockdown.

Before the Timeless warranty ran out last August I was concerned that the gearbox was whining much more in 6th gear than in the lower gears. I made some recordings and sent these in advance of the 7-year service to the servicing dealer (not the selling dealer). After they had listened to it running on the hoist I was told that this is "characteristic of a high performance box", but offered a gearbox oil change which I paid for.

I don't think it's any different really, and was hoping fellow owners could tell me whether it is normal for the gearbox to make a much louder whine in 6th than it does at the same speed (70mph) in 4th or 5th??

Recordings here

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zyzo3olytp1zxy7/V12V%20g...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hln17essrlxpcb6/V12V%20g...

Tony

Edited by Astonviewer on Tuesday 6th April 21:32

[LTP]

I don't know where you are geographically in the UK but I would suggest a trip to someone like Bamford Rose, as you'll get an independent appraisal and opinion rather than potentially the AML corporate line.

As far as attaching the audio goes, you could upload the file to a site like Vocaroo and post the link

[Dewi 2]

Astonviewer said:

...... I was told that this is "characteristic of a high performance box", but offered a gearbox oil change which I paid for.

...... and was hoping fellow owners could tell me whether it is normal for the gearbox to make a much louder whine in 6th than it does at the same speed (70mph) in 4th or 5th??

Probably of not much help to you Tony, but with my transmission (V8, but same box as V12) I have never noticed a whine in any gear.
I am even fortunate with the, difficult for many, 1st to 2nd cold shift.

Your dealer's comment is strange. I have an old Mini Cooper, for which I have one gearbox containing straight cut gears. The gear teeth are pitched at 90° to make them stronger. I suppose that might be called a high performance box and yes, that has a very loud whine in all gears. Our Graziano gear boxes would not have straight cut gears though, so why they called it high performance, I don't know.

I would follow LTP's suggestion, and as you reported it before your warranty expired, be ready to involve people at Gaydon.

[Dewi 2]

PS. to my post.

Have just listened to your first sound file. Only using tablet speakers, so not ideal.

I think I heard the 6th gear making an intermittant whine and not continuous. Is that right?

If so I don't know what that might mean, but it could be a useful clue to Mike at Bamford Rose, or an equivalent specialist.

[Green9]

Hi Tony

In haste I’m afraid but I had exactly the same issue with my manual 2006 DB9 Volante when I bought it. 6th gear noisy especially when cruising at 40-60mph on gentle throttle.

Ended up having gearbox out by an AM specialist - it was caused by a warn 6th gear (I use it as a paperweight now!) and he sourced a new 6th gear. All paid for by the seller.

Let me know if you’d like more details. I wrote about it on PH when the issue occurred so you may be able to find it.

Matt

[LTP]

Astonviewer said:

Sound files should be available here. Opinions gratefully received

Tony

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tflyg99i413gwz4/V12V%20g...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fikx1yx96k6qj40/V12V%20g...

The whine in the second recording (6th?) seems worse. I'm not going to be able to add much as I've only ever driven (briefly) one manual DB9 and I don't recall any whine like that, in any gear.

However, to try to help you explain the problem better to someone like Mike at Bamford Rose, what is the whine like:

1. On gentle acceleration (which is what I think you recorded)
2. On hard acceleration (WOT, which will load up the gears and bearings)
3. On neutral throttle (maintaining speed on a flat road - this is where everything is very lightly loaded)
4. On a gentle trailing throttle (loads opposite to being driven so will show up lash)
5. When decelerating from speed with the throttle shut (maximum engine braking; maximum reverse loading)

[Astonviewer]

Dewi 2 said:

I think I heard the 6th gear making an intermittant whine and not continuous. Is that right?

The noise varies with throttle opening when cruising at legal speeds. Most noticeable when lifting off slightly but probably present all the time really, but masked by engine/road noise when used in anger!
Tony

[macdeb]

I had a gearbox 'whine' in same conditions as described and the service manager at the time said the gearbox oil should be changed first of which I would have to pay for. I rejected that course of action saying that the car had only done 7k miles at the time from new and that no oil change would make a difference as the gearbox obviously has a fault. Especially not at my expense. I took him in car and he denied hearing anything. He then (discussion got heated) suggested he called the warranty engineer and put on loudspeaker whilst I stood there and I said, 'please do'. He repeated his suggested his course of action to the engineer who quipped, 'what use would that be'? His expression was priceless and stopped him dead in tracks. The engineer came out to see the car, I drove him up the road and he agreed it was faulty and the gearbox was replaced with a 'silent' unit. Moral of story, just because they are a 'service manager' that is no guarantee that they are mechanically minded, moreover profit minded I'm afraid.
Now some gearboxes may have a noise and go on for years needing no maintenance but it was not right and it was under warranty. I'd expected the attitude from a back street dealer not Aston Martin. Don't stand for bullst.

Edited by macdeb on Friday 12th March 19:35

[DavidV12V]

Hi...I have had my v121v for 10+ years now and I had a similar issue back in the day...can't say it was exactly the same noise but mine sounded a bit like a high speed turbine added in 6th...mentioned it when I took it in for service (with am warranty) and got a call saying am were replacing the gearbox which was all done for free..

I never really got a full explanation which would have been nice at the time and useful in this situation but, as others have said, I suggest a second opinion..then if it was under warranty when reported you should also have a strong case if anything needs doing me thinks...

I don't want to alarm you, but i thought the above might be useful given your comments and sounds....and let me know if you think I can provide any further useful info to support your efforts..best of luck towards a speedy conclusion

Ps it's also been a subject on here in the past as I remember commenting then..so maybe something useful in those threads

[Sydney V8V]

My Vantage at over 70,000 miles has no noise ,having same gearbox as early DB9 . Noise and wear usually on lower gears due to higher torque rating going through the gear. Unusual 6th gear has the noise unless a batch of 6th gears had a production problem. Ask BR for advice.

[Green9]

Sydney V8V said:

My Vantage at over 70,000 miles has no noise ,having same gearbox as early DB9 . Noise and wear usually on lower gears due to higher torque rating going through the gear. Unusual 6th gear has the noise unless a batch of 6th gears had a production problem. Ask BR for advice.

This is not the case with these particular gearboxes. I was specifically told by the AM gearbox expert who replaced my 6th gear that the only issues they have come across with these Graziano boxes are on 6th gear as apparently it’s furthest from the oil supply and therefore can suffer premature wear.

He had to get the parts from a US motor racing team as Graziano will only sell the entire gearbox apparently...

[V8V Pete]

It's a shame that you were fobbed-off when in warranty and it may get a bit messy but you should be able to get this sorted with a little effort and probably some direct involvement with the factory as Dewi says. I'd assume that your sound files are date stamped in some way and that you have documentation of your visit to the dealer (before the warranty expired) given that you paid for the gearbox oil change.

When I had an engine issue (rattle) on my V8S (within factory warranty), I initially took it to my now ex-AML dealer whose opening salvo was "They all do that sir". We had a walk round the carpark starting all the V8s and established that they actually don't. Sound files were sent to Gaydon, the injectors were changed blah blah blah blah .............. they didn't sort it. So I went to Bamford Rose and got a formal written report which I sent to Gaydon. They agreed to have the engine looked at by another main dealer (Works Service) who started pulling the engine apart to investigate but eventually just replaced it with a new one. Long painful process but good outcome in the end.

There have been a number of gearboxes replaced over the years on here and most seem to have been V12 Vantages. Not sure if this because of the extra torque over the V8 or maybe a batch issue as suggested earlier. IIRC most have been 6th gear whines too but I'm not 100% sure on that.

As Mac says, don't put up with the dealer's bullst because they seem to either have limited mechanical knowledge or deliberately obstruct warranty issues for some reason. If they're not helping, get an independent report and deal directly with the factory who were helpful in my case. Good luck and I hope you get it sorted without a big bill.

[JohnG1]

V8V Pete said:

It's a shame that you were fobbed-off when in warranty and it may get a bit messy but you should be able to get this sorted with a little effort and probably some direct involvement with the factory as Dewi says. I'd assume that your sound files are date stamped in some way and that you have documentation of your visit to the dealer (before the warranty expired) given that you paid for the gearbox oil change.

When I had an engine issue (rattle) on my V8S (within factory warranty), I initially took it to my now ex-AML dealer whose opening salvo was "They all do that sir". We had a walk round the carpark starting all the V8s and established that they actually don't. Sound files were sent to Gaydon, the injectors were changed blah blah blah blah .............. they didn't sort it. So I went to Bamford Rose and got a formal written report which I sent to Gaydon. They agreed to have the engine looked at by another main dealer (Works Service) who started pulling the engine apart to investigate but eventually just replaced it with a new one. Long painful process but good outcome in the end.

There have been a number of gearboxes replaced over the years on here and most seem to have been V12 Vantages. Not sure if this because of the extra torque over the V8 or maybe a batch issue as suggested earlier. IIRC most have been 6th gear whines too but I'm not 100% sure on that.

As Mac says, don't put up with the dealer's bullst because they seem to either have limited mechanical knowledge or deliberately obstruct warranty issues for some reason. If they're not helping, get an independent report and deal directly with the factory who were helpful in my case. Good luck and I hope you get it sorted without a big bill.

^^^ what he said. I had Bamford Rose inspect my V12V and engage with AML. End result, new clutch fitted.

I sent Andy Palmer a tweet (few years back) got bubbling fixed.

Dealers in the UK are not uniform quality. A bit of fact-based debate goes a long way...

[cayman-black]

How many miles has the car done Tony? Definitely has a strong whining noise, some of these main dealers really do talk rubbish.

[Craig elam1]

Just seen this , started to read it and became immeditely annoyed so didnt read it all.sorry if i missed something.
Modern gearboxes and diffs for road cars only whine when there faulty.
Race cars whine like a banshee because the gears are straight cut instead of road cars bevel cut gears,
To use that comparison to explain it as normal is not on

[Dewi 2]

JohnG1 said:

I sent Andy Palmer a tweet (few years back) got bubbling fixed.

We have heard of several instances, where Andy Palmer was helpful with customers' problems.

I wonder whether Tobias Moers will continue in the same way, or has he brought the trickery of Mercedes-Benz to his new role.
We will find out eventually.

Mercedes-Benz 30 year corrosion warranty. A brilliant and generous benefit for owners.
.... Until you dare to mention rust has appeared. "That is corrosion Sir, but it is not the corrosion covered by our warranty."

Hold out a carrot for a donkey. Donkey walks towards the carrot. Snatch away the carrot, when the donkey opens his mouth.
Mercedes-Benz training course.

Edited by Dewi 2 on Saturday 13th March 09:35

[macdeb]

Dewi 2 said:

JohnG1 said:

I sent Andy Palmer a tweet (few years back) got bubbling fixed.

We have heard of several instances, where Andy Palmer was helpful with customers' problems.

I wonder whether Tobias Moers will continue in the same way, or has he brought the trickery of Mercedes-Benz to his new role.
We will find out eventually.

Mercedes-Benz 30 year corrosion warranty. A brilliant and generous benefit for owners.
.... Until you dare to mention rust has appeared. "That is corrosion Sir, but it is not the corrosion covered by our warranty."

Hold out a carrot for a donkey. Donkey walks towards the carrot. Snatch away the carrot, when the donkey opens his mouth.
Mercedes-Benz training course.

Edited by Dewi 2 on Saturday 13th March 09:35

I too wrote to Andy Palmer about the engine in my V8 (I said big end knock, dealer said injector noise ) Anyway, Andy Palmer instructed a very nice chap at Gaydon to contact me the very next day! Cannot fault AML on service.
(oh, and it was indeed big end knock).

[Green9]

Here’s a photo of the old 6th - now replaced - gear. No whine at all since replacement.

[Green9]

The other part of it:

[LTP]

Green9 said:

Here’s a photo of the old 6th - now replaced - gear. No whine at all since replacement.

The state of those gear teeth in the top picture! They should be polished smooth, not looking like they'd just been refinished with a rough file