Aston Becker awarded Mundy Award
Discussion
Thoroughly deserved IMO, the perplexing thing though is that the expertise Becker brought, and the impact on the car lineup is something that doesn't rank anywhere near being important or beneficial, according to the other threads running, where driving dynamics of an Aston Martin don't matter, it need only be pretty to look at.
I recall a quite heated discussion I had with a friend who owned a Cayman GT4 at the time. His words were something to the effect of "Aston Martin owners are pretentious, they're only interested in looks, they cant drive and just want to be seen to look sophisticated". I told him that wasn't the case at all, we called each other a tosser, and moved onto the next topic.
The truth appears to be, it seems to depend on what era of car you own as to whether how it drives matters. The current cars, especially those launched under Becker's watch, are mightily impressive to drive - which they ought to be given what the competition is producing. It's unfortunate then that the dynamic capability (and I mean generally, not just the 10/10th's maximum potatoes driving) is overshadowed, borderline criticized because it's viewed as irrelevant to an Aston Martin.
Congratulations to Matt and his team; more great things to come I hope.
I recall a quite heated discussion I had with a friend who owned a Cayman GT4 at the time. His words were something to the effect of "Aston Martin owners are pretentious, they're only interested in looks, they cant drive and just want to be seen to look sophisticated". I told him that wasn't the case at all, we called each other a tosser, and moved onto the next topic.
The truth appears to be, it seems to depend on what era of car you own as to whether how it drives matters. The current cars, especially those launched under Becker's watch, are mightily impressive to drive - which they ought to be given what the competition is producing. It's unfortunate then that the dynamic capability (and I mean generally, not just the 10/10th's maximum potatoes driving) is overshadowed, borderline criticized because it's viewed as irrelevant to an Aston Martin.
Congratulations to Matt and his team; more great things to come I hope.
Well deserved.
I was slightly puzzled though, knowing that Matt Becker was so personally involved with the development of handling for the new Vantage model, that Mr Moers has now introduced one which laps Nurburgring 15 seconds quicker. Perhaps his award was based on the revised model suspension.
There is a motoring gentleman that we all know about, who has been invited to apply for Farmer of the Year award.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=esTr4IqnXro
(Joke)
Jon39 said:
I was slightly puzzled though, knowing that Matt Becker was so personally involved with the development of handling for the new Vantage model, that Mr Moers has now introduced one which laps Nurburgring 15 seconds quicker. Perhaps his award was based on the revised model suspension.
Being the cynic that I am, as well as knowing the rates of all the suspension bushes in the AMG models (radial, axial and torsional) perhaps Moers also knows the benefits of claiming successes. Let's see if failures belong to others, as is often the case in the world of CEOsoilit said:
This was an interesting read, I once subscribed to Autocar for many years until its complete and seeming unhindered adoration of anything with a BMW badge on it took over at which point I unsubscribed, It just got completely out of hand. I recall a review determined a BMW was better than another car despite the other car reportedly handling better and having more room etc.This read was quite refreshing and so was the video review of the DBX.
All very good points, and I agree it is well deserved, and I learnt a little about the man himself - which was really interesting.
To yr points vette
The more I think about it -human senses are smell, sight, touch, taste, hearing,
There is some research that suggests it’s difficult to taste a car so ignoring that one and smell for now (unless we are talking about your other project)
The first thing when a new car is presented is probably sight, if you like it you may touch it and hear it.
If touch includes the feel of the car - ie handling, then it could be argued that if the car doesn’t stimulate the sight you may not experience the sound or the touch ?
Just a lunchtime ponder....
To yr points vette
The more I think about it -human senses are smell, sight, touch, taste, hearing,
There is some research that suggests it’s difficult to taste a car so ignoring that one and smell for now (unless we are talking about your other project)
The first thing when a new car is presented is probably sight, if you like it you may touch it and hear it.
If touch includes the feel of the car - ie handling, then it could be argued that if the car doesn’t stimulate the sight you may not experience the sound or the touch ?
Just a lunchtime ponder....
oilit said:
All very good points, and I agree it is well deserved, and I learnt a little about the man himself - which was really interesting.
To yr points vette
The more I think about it -human senses are smell, sight, touch, taste, hearing,
There is some research that suggests it’s difficult to taste a car so ignoring that one and smell for now (unless we are talking about your other project)
The first thing when a new car is presented is probably sight, if you like it you may touch it and hear it.
If touch includes the feel of the car - ie handling, then it could be argued that if the car doesn’t stimulate the sight you may not experience the sound or the touch ?
Just a lunchtime ponder....
That would certainly tally with the overriding opinion of "if it looks ugly, it must be rubbish". The current range (from Vantage through to DBX) hasn't really been given a chance because they 'failed' at the first hurdle of looks. So on that basis, Becker and his team did all that work for nothing. The reason he and his team receive praise is they developed cars that took a quantum leap forwards over what they replaced - and that matters when your products are going toe-to-toe with other car makers.To yr points vette
The more I think about it -human senses are smell, sight, touch, taste, hearing,
There is some research that suggests it’s difficult to taste a car so ignoring that one and smell for now (unless we are talking about your other project)
The first thing when a new car is presented is probably sight, if you like it you may touch it and hear it.
If touch includes the feel of the car - ie handling, then it could be argued that if the car doesn’t stimulate the sight you may not experience the sound or the touch ?
Just a lunchtime ponder....
Aston Martin are in a very unusual position though, where long time customers almost prefer the cars to not be as dynamically capable as their rivals, as if there's some kind of development token system that only allows you to focus on one area of a car, and there's perhaps a perception that if too much effort is applied to chassis dynamics it means styling is neglected. The current cars weren't neglected, in fact they moved the goal posts a little too much, it was too dramatic a step and to get the purists back onside, needs reining back in.
It's obvious now, that there's a collective of customers for whom driving dynamics are simply irrelevant, but for Aston to compete against the likes of Ferrari, it needs to be on level terms with them in performance, or at least be in the same post code. That's why Becker and Goodwin were brought in. All the jigsaw pieces are in place, the right people are in the right positions, and the feedback (from the useful productive stuff, through to the not-so useful 'sack everyone' statements) has been taken onboard, and the end result of the refresh should please those wanting to buy a new Aston Martin. I just hope they're given the time to nail it before calls for another senior management change start.
I agree - I liken it to the time Ford got rid of the popular Cortina and replaced it with the Sierra (sorry jelly mould), or the Capri being replaced by the Probe.
Designs were too big a jump imho. That is where Porsche with the 911 have had it executed well imho with slight iterations rather than huge steps. Plus they have kept their identity.......
Designs were too big a jump imho. That is where Porsche with the 911 have had it executed well imho with slight iterations rather than huge steps. Plus they have kept their identity.......
I'm not sure where the Aston sub-forum thread talking about the Vantage F1 Edition went, so this thread being vaguely related seems appropriate as the improvements are dynamic rather than aesthetic.
The embargo has lifted on the Vantage F1 Edition; it appears that the car's pretty good - it's a shame that there's little about it that'll appeal to the more traditional crowd, or equally - the new money lot. Most of the reviews highlight out of date infotainment, high kerb weight, price and an auto gearbox not being as good as a DCT. Aesthetically it's all subjective, but we know it's not a car that's regarded as pretty, so is there anything about it that's regarded as positive?
The review thread on the homepage has already become something of a blood bath. It's going to feel like an eternity counting down the months until the revised car lineup is unveiled, because at the moment it seems like while Aston's got its back to the wall, virtually everybody wants to give them a hard time as if they're at the factory, standing still, not beavering away to change direction and build cars that aren't described as being polished turds.
A great shame IMO; I'd like to try the Vantage F1 Edition to see what it's like in the real world - I'd lose the rear wing as I've never liked those on cars that already had duck tails.
The embargo has lifted on the Vantage F1 Edition; it appears that the car's pretty good - it's a shame that there's little about it that'll appeal to the more traditional crowd, or equally - the new money lot. Most of the reviews highlight out of date infotainment, high kerb weight, price and an auto gearbox not being as good as a DCT. Aesthetically it's all subjective, but we know it's not a car that's regarded as pretty, so is there anything about it that's regarded as positive?
The review thread on the homepage has already become something of a blood bath. It's going to feel like an eternity counting down the months until the revised car lineup is unveiled, because at the moment it seems like while Aston's got its back to the wall, virtually everybody wants to give them a hard time as if they're at the factory, standing still, not beavering away to change direction and build cars that aren't described as being polished turds.
A great shame IMO; I'd like to try the Vantage F1 Edition to see what it's like in the real world - I'd lose the rear wing as I've never liked those on cars that already had duck tails.
Hi Vette, funny, I also read the home page review and was looking for what they thought was positive. I think there is a hidden referral that if you can forgive the infotainment, gearbox and interior then it’s actually as good as or perhaps better than a 911 at handling.
A very confusing non committal write up - but it sets the expectation that this won’t be the last iteration.
I have contemplated trying to get behind the wheel of a new vantage for a test drive, as I predict there may be some relative bargains when all the special lease deals end at the end of the year.
The review in The Telegraph I am afraid is far superior, and even includes comments like:-
In the centre of the facia, there’s a Mercedes-Benz touchscreen. It’s from the previous generation Mercs, but is that a bad thing? Not really, because you get a touchpad and a capstan control, which Mercedes has dropped for its latest models in favour of voice control and steering wheel buttons, which not everyone likes – and, I’d observe, simply aren’t as easy to use.
Just goes to prove, everyone sees things differently!!!!!
A very confusing non committal write up - but it sets the expectation that this won’t be the last iteration.
I have contemplated trying to get behind the wheel of a new vantage for a test drive, as I predict there may be some relative bargains when all the special lease deals end at the end of the year.
The review in The Telegraph I am afraid is far superior, and even includes comments like:-
In the centre of the facia, there’s a Mercedes-Benz touchscreen. It’s from the previous generation Mercs, but is that a bad thing? Not really, because you get a touchpad and a capstan control, which Mercedes has dropped for its latest models in favour of voice control and steering wheel buttons, which not everyone likes – and, I’d observe, simply aren’t as easy to use.
Just goes to prove, everyone sees things differently!!!!!
Edited by oilit on Wednesday 23 June 08:25
NFC 85 Vette said:
The review thread on the homepage .......
I only saw that following your reference Jon.
If we start to talk about Aston Martin racing cars here, the topic is quickly moved to the F1 forum, but Aston Martin topics on the General Gassing forum are apparently OK.
Happened to notice another AM topic on GG, about a revised Valkyrie, but seemingly that is deemed to be of no interest to Aston Martin enthusiasts.
What a muddle.
oilit said:
Hi Vette, funny, I also read the home page review and was looking for what they thought was positive. I think there is a hidden referral that if you can forgive the infotainment, gearbox and interior then it’s actually as good as or perhaps better than a 911 at handling.
A very confusing non committal write up - but it sets the expectation that this won’t be the last iteration.
I have contemplated trying to get behind the wheel of a new vantage for a test drive, as I predict there may be some relative bargains when all the special lease deals end at the end of the year.
The review in The Telegraph I am afraid is far superior, and even includes comments like:-
In the centre of the facia, there’s a Mercedes-Benz touchscreen. It’s from the previous generation Mercs, but is that a bad thing? Not really, because you get a touchpad and a capstan control, which Mercedes has dropped for its latest models in favour of voice control and steering wheel buttons, which not everyone likes – and, I’d observe, simply aren’t as easy to use.
Just goes to prove, everyone sees things differently!!!!!
Very true, and it's where I believe the company's between a rock and a hard place. There's regular criticism about using last gen (or in this case, 2x gen old tech) in the cars, but the moment they migrate to the latest MBUX based infotainment (by way of the revised technical partnership), that's largely all touchscreens, the complaints then simply move to how difficult they are to use while driving. A very confusing non committal write up - but it sets the expectation that this won’t be the last iteration.
I have contemplated trying to get behind the wheel of a new vantage for a test drive, as I predict there may be some relative bargains when all the special lease deals end at the end of the year.
The review in The Telegraph I am afraid is far superior, and even includes comments like:-
In the centre of the facia, there’s a Mercedes-Benz touchscreen. It’s from the previous generation Mercs, but is that a bad thing? Not really, because you get a touchpad and a capstan control, which Mercedes has dropped for its latest models in favour of voice control and steering wheel buttons, which not everyone likes – and, I’d observe, simply aren’t as easy to use.
Just goes to prove, everyone sees things differently!!!!!
I hope there's a middle ground where they get hi-res screens, neatly integrated, but controlled by physical switch gear. I find the rotary dial and touch pad in the DB11 is excellent, it's not dissimilar to the small rotary that was mounted to the ski slope in the Vanquish. It meant that once you had your hand on it, you could breeze through settings without playing pin the tail on the donkey while trying to drive.
As this thread and a few others have alluded, how an Aston drives isn't as important to consumers as how they look. That being the case, presumably the F1 Edition is regarded by the traditional Aston crowd as another failure because the focus was on making it more dynamically capable.
The regular Vantage was a car I find to be the most satisfying to drive out of the current lineup, because you could tap into the performance on offer, and it was rewarding because you felt like you were really making the most of it. In that regard, the F1 Edition is right up my street, but I fear it just doesn't offer the traditional following what they want, nor what someone currently in a 911 GT series wants (because the Vantage while being more focused, still isn't a trackday refugee with some scaffold poles behind the front seats).
Jon39 said:
I only saw that following your reference Jon.
If we start to talk about Aston Martin racing cars here, the topic is quickly moved to the F1 forum, but Aston Martin topics on the General Gassing forum are apparently OK.
Happened to notice another AM topic on GG, about a revised Valkyrie, but seemingly that is deemed to be of no interest to Aston Martin enthusiasts.
What a muddle.
If we're honest though, this corner of the forum isn't really interested in the Valkyrie though, is it? Like the DBX, it exists as a very niche, (high level) bread winner that's viewed either as irrelevant or unnecessary. Those multi million pound hypercars occupy a segment that's beyond us mere mortals, and the delays and setbacks Aston faced with the car, are gleefully commented on in General Gassing as it's probably in more familiar territory there among every other hypercar none of us can afford.
Aston's in something of a transition phase, so those arguments about the the Aston sub-forum sitting in 'other marques' rather than under Supercars still crops up, because broadly speaking there's a perception that Aston doesn't build supercars, it builds cars for 'the old and the bald' (not my words, I'll add).
I'd argue the Valkyrie and Valhalla aren't soft, overweight GT cars, but Aston's general market position is such that it tends to sit in the middle of the spectrum when it comes to lairy performance or cosseting luxury. This was demonstrated in the recent Autocar test with the DB11 AMR vs Roma vs Conti GT, where the Aston neither had the dynamics of the Roma nor the luxury of the Bentley, and hence came in last.
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