What to do with a ticking DB9?
Discussion
Forgive the length of the post.
My DB9 has The Dreaded Tick, and my attempts to live with it just aren’t working. I had pretty much decided that rebuilding the engine was the only way forward because that's the only way the car would ever be either enjoyable or sellable. However, I’ve recently started to think about selling it as-is.
In the US market, the equivalent car with no tick is worth about $40k. I have been estimating the cost of an engine rebuild at about $20k, which I'd never come close to recovering, but I figure a car that can be sold as having a rebuilt and theoretically “tick proof” engine should be worth a bit more, perhaps $45k. Until recently, I had no idea what a ticking car might sell for because I’d never seen anyone disclose the issue, which I would feel obligated to do. However, I recently saw just such a car. I explained my situation to the seller and he said he’d been offered $25k. Selling outright for $25k, vs. spending $20k to bring the value up to $45k, seems like a wash to me.
Financial considerations aside, I’ve always been torn. On one hand, I’m so bitterly angry over the tick that I don’t know if my opinion of the car can ever recover. On the other, Aston ownership was such a major life goal that I just can’t let go, because to do so is to admit that all the time I spent dreaming and saving and working toward it was wasted. I’ve been going back and forth with that for literally years.
Friends have suggested trading it in, but I’m reluctant. Dealers rarely have anything that interests me, and to get the most out of it I’d have to trade for something more expensive, which further limits my options. I’m hesitant to let a dealer –or anyone else- test drive such a fragile car, and I can’t imagine they wouldn’t pick up on the tick anyway, which means I’d get a wholesale price for damaged goods. And even though most people don't seem to have an issue with dumping a problem car on a dealer, I don't feel right about it.
My dad has suggested we tackle the rebuild ourselves. We went through the engine in his Countach so it wouldn’t actually be the first time we’ve had a V12 in bits. I have two concerns though: one is getting the engine out of the car, which looks like an absolute nightmare. The other is that I won’t have any recourse if we get something wrong.
So, what to do? If the well is poisoned and there’s nothing to gain financially, there wouldn’t seem much point in fixing it. Conversely, it doesn’t seem like it would really cost anything in the long term to give the car another chance, though it would tie up quite a bit of money for a while. In all objectivity, the failure is inexcusable and correcting it would be the third biggest purchase I’ve ever made, but still - should I let a lifelong dream die over that?
To do the rebuild, I would first need a lot of convincing that the issue won’t recur, and that it isn’t indicative of widespread quality shortcomings and engineering failures elsewhere. Would I ever have any confidence in it? It might not be broken, but in my mind it may always be made of glass.
If I sell it, I have to first be certain that I never would have enjoyed it. I also have to keep from letting my negativity and frustration show too much. I mean, I want to be honest, but one can be TOO honest, and I'm not a good actor.
If I sound like I'm kind of all over the place with this, it's because I AM kind of all over the place with this. But I guess my questions boil down to:
-Are the numbers in the ballpark? The way I have it figured it's a toss-up, but if a rebuild is more and/or the car is worth less, or vice-versa, that could be the difference maker.
-Any suggestions for reputable places to get quotes on a rebuild? It needs to be in the western US, but preferably not California.
-How viable is a DIY rebuild? How much is labor that could be saved vs. parts and machining?
-If selling is the right option, what's the best way to approach it?
-Any other thoughts and general input appreciated.
My DB9 has The Dreaded Tick, and my attempts to live with it just aren’t working. I had pretty much decided that rebuilding the engine was the only way forward because that's the only way the car would ever be either enjoyable or sellable. However, I’ve recently started to think about selling it as-is.
In the US market, the equivalent car with no tick is worth about $40k. I have been estimating the cost of an engine rebuild at about $20k, which I'd never come close to recovering, but I figure a car that can be sold as having a rebuilt and theoretically “tick proof” engine should be worth a bit more, perhaps $45k. Until recently, I had no idea what a ticking car might sell for because I’d never seen anyone disclose the issue, which I would feel obligated to do. However, I recently saw just such a car. I explained my situation to the seller and he said he’d been offered $25k. Selling outright for $25k, vs. spending $20k to bring the value up to $45k, seems like a wash to me.
Financial considerations aside, I’ve always been torn. On one hand, I’m so bitterly angry over the tick that I don’t know if my opinion of the car can ever recover. On the other, Aston ownership was such a major life goal that I just can’t let go, because to do so is to admit that all the time I spent dreaming and saving and working toward it was wasted. I’ve been going back and forth with that for literally years.
Friends have suggested trading it in, but I’m reluctant. Dealers rarely have anything that interests me, and to get the most out of it I’d have to trade for something more expensive, which further limits my options. I’m hesitant to let a dealer –or anyone else- test drive such a fragile car, and I can’t imagine they wouldn’t pick up on the tick anyway, which means I’d get a wholesale price for damaged goods. And even though most people don't seem to have an issue with dumping a problem car on a dealer, I don't feel right about it.
My dad has suggested we tackle the rebuild ourselves. We went through the engine in his Countach so it wouldn’t actually be the first time we’ve had a V12 in bits. I have two concerns though: one is getting the engine out of the car, which looks like an absolute nightmare. The other is that I won’t have any recourse if we get something wrong.
So, what to do? If the well is poisoned and there’s nothing to gain financially, there wouldn’t seem much point in fixing it. Conversely, it doesn’t seem like it would really cost anything in the long term to give the car another chance, though it would tie up quite a bit of money for a while. In all objectivity, the failure is inexcusable and correcting it would be the third biggest purchase I’ve ever made, but still - should I let a lifelong dream die over that?
To do the rebuild, I would first need a lot of convincing that the issue won’t recur, and that it isn’t indicative of widespread quality shortcomings and engineering failures elsewhere. Would I ever have any confidence in it? It might not be broken, but in my mind it may always be made of glass.
If I sell it, I have to first be certain that I never would have enjoyed it. I also have to keep from letting my negativity and frustration show too much. I mean, I want to be honest, but one can be TOO honest, and I'm not a good actor.
If I sound like I'm kind of all over the place with this, it's because I AM kind of all over the place with this. But I guess my questions boil down to:
-Are the numbers in the ballpark? The way I have it figured it's a toss-up, but if a rebuild is more and/or the car is worth less, or vice-versa, that could be the difference maker.
-Any suggestions for reputable places to get quotes on a rebuild? It needs to be in the western US, but preferably not California.
-How viable is a DIY rebuild? How much is labor that could be saved vs. parts and machining?
-If selling is the right option, what's the best way to approach it?
-Any other thoughts and general input appreciated.
So sorry to hear about your trouble. Think you might have mentioned your problem on here before, unless that concerned another DB9 in America.
I expect you have watched these videos, but if not, the information might be useful.
You may know about the presenters engineering background.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9rjHURwgwM
There are three more videos on this subject;
QOTW #38
QOTW #47
FC #53
Cannot remember, but they might not include much about what to do about it.
In the UK, there must be used engines for sale sometimes, from insurance write offs with say rear or side damage.
Is an accident damaged car less likely to have the tick? After all, it was in use prior to the fateful moment.
This line of thought is of course more complicated as you are in the USA.
Hope that you are able to find a solution.
Yeah really sorry you have this problem.
If my DB9 developed the tick I would remove the engine and get a replacement one from a salvage yard.
If you've had engines out before like me just take it slowly and eventually it'll come out.
Just buy the engine without the ancillaries so thats the cheapest option, you may need to travel far maybe overseas to collect the new engine.
AM factory recons are around £8k so one from a breakers yard would be alot less than that.
I would to try to recoup any cash and sell the cylinder heads etc.
If my DB9 developed the tick I would remove the engine and get a replacement one from a salvage yard.
If you've had engines out before like me just take it slowly and eventually it'll come out.
Just buy the engine without the ancillaries so thats the cheapest option, you may need to travel far maybe overseas to collect the new engine.
AM factory recons are around £8k so one from a breakers yard would be alot less than that.
I would to try to recoup any cash and sell the cylinder heads etc.
I rebuilt my motor in my 06 db9 after the PO spin a rod bearing. You can find my thread on the other am forum.
It is a very simple motor. Just 12 of everything....
Depending on how cheap you are, you could replace the rods with OEM ford rods (upgraded small end bearings) and new wrist pins.... The priciest parts are the head gaskets and various front gaskets and rear seals. I used ARP bolts for the heads and rods. If you didnt disassemble the heads or replace parts this is about 1-2k us of parts.
If you have a lift it is a pretty straight forward job to get the engine out. A engine host is helpful to move it around. The repair manual has the torques and clearances required.
It is a very simple motor. Just 12 of everything....
Depending on how cheap you are, you could replace the rods with OEM ford rods (upgraded small end bearings) and new wrist pins.... The priciest parts are the head gaskets and various front gaskets and rear seals. I used ARP bolts for the heads and rods. If you didnt disassemble the heads or replace parts this is about 1-2k us of parts.
If you have a lift it is a pretty straight forward job to get the engine out. A engine host is helpful to move it around. The repair manual has the torques and clearances required.
I'm in the same boat. For now, I'm driving as is and living with the tick. It's a weekend car, so I've thought about just keeping. Swapping the thermostat with the one from the Vanquish has reduced the frequency of the tick as that thermostat is set to open at a lower temp. However, it does take away from the overall experience. I've toyed with the idea of trading in quite a bit and may eventually go that route. In the last episode on the tick by BR, Mike mentions that the ticking engine they removed did not have liner ovalization and only had small end bearing wear which he demonstrates with the bearing and conrod. That said, maybe it will be a scenario where you don't have to do anything to the liners themselves.
As you may know, Bamford Rose posts quite a bit on this topic. Coincidentally at one point they had a arrangement with a shop in Arizona. I don’t recall the nature or ultimate fate of that venture but Phoenix/Scottsdale would qualify as non-California but western region. I see there is an Aston indie, “British Autohauz”, but you can dig around to see who BR had aligned with.
And I wish Mike would find a solid relationship in the American SE!
And I wish Mike would find a solid relationship in the American SE!
I suppose it will all become clear once you drop the motor. Knowing the cost of a reconditioned engine sets your upper $$, so choose wisely.
I could have bought a reconditioned motor, but I didn't think they would take the care that I did to build mine, and it would have cost about the same. I didn't want some guy making measurements on parts and then shoving them back in, only to have them come out of spec in 12K miles.
I could have bought a reconditioned motor, but I didn't think they would take the care that I did to build mine, and it would have cost about the same. I didn't want some guy making measurements on parts and then shoving them back in, only to have them come out of spec in 12K miles.
Appreciate all the input.
I've watched all the BR videos and I had an email exchange with Mike a few years ago. At the time, it was British Auto Repair in Phoenix that he had partnered with, but it looks like that alliance has dissolved. Might still be the best place to take it though. Anyway, I'm pretty sure I've got the liner ovality issue and not just wrist pins, mostly because I get a clattery sound on deceleration which is a symptom of piston slap.
A replacement engine is an interesting idea. I had considered that at one point, but it wasn't cost effective. The only one currently on US eBay is almost $24k, and it's used with more miles than my car. Scuderia Car Parts gave me a similar quote a couple of years ago for a remanufactured one, but that was on an exchange basis.
on UK eBay, however, I have the choice of a remanufactured or a junkyard engine for 9k GBP. Even allowing for a couple thousand in freight, that could tilt the scales in favor of fixing the car. I'm reluctant to use a junkyard engine unless its running condition can be determined, as in a car with rear collision damage. If the remanufactured one doesn't require exchange, that could be the way to go. If it does require exchange, I might still be better off rebuilding.
It does bring up some new questions:
What years of engine are plug and play with a 2005 car? I would guess anything before the change to 470hp would work?
In that vein, would it be feasible to bore the stock liners and use a custom piston, or would the ecu need a reflash or something to accommodate a change in displacement? I don't really care about more power, but liners look like the most expensive parts in a rebuild.
Regarding engine removal, the factory procedure is to basically undo the front and rear subframes and lift the body off. I'm not equipped for that as I only have a 4-post storage lift. I know someone worked out a way to remove the engine from above - is this procedure documented anywhere?
I've watched all the BR videos and I had an email exchange with Mike a few years ago. At the time, it was British Auto Repair in Phoenix that he had partnered with, but it looks like that alliance has dissolved. Might still be the best place to take it though. Anyway, I'm pretty sure I've got the liner ovality issue and not just wrist pins, mostly because I get a clattery sound on deceleration which is a symptom of piston slap.
A replacement engine is an interesting idea. I had considered that at one point, but it wasn't cost effective. The only one currently on US eBay is almost $24k, and it's used with more miles than my car. Scuderia Car Parts gave me a similar quote a couple of years ago for a remanufactured one, but that was on an exchange basis.
on UK eBay, however, I have the choice of a remanufactured or a junkyard engine for 9k GBP. Even allowing for a couple thousand in freight, that could tilt the scales in favor of fixing the car. I'm reluctant to use a junkyard engine unless its running condition can be determined, as in a car with rear collision damage. If the remanufactured one doesn't require exchange, that could be the way to go. If it does require exchange, I might still be better off rebuilding.
It does bring up some new questions:
What years of engine are plug and play with a 2005 car? I would guess anything before the change to 470hp would work?
In that vein, would it be feasible to bore the stock liners and use a custom piston, or would the ecu need a reflash or something to accommodate a change in displacement? I don't really care about more power, but liners look like the most expensive parts in a rebuild.
Regarding engine removal, the factory procedure is to basically undo the front and rear subframes and lift the body off. I'm not equipped for that as I only have a 4-post storage lift. I know someone worked out a way to remove the engine from above - is this procedure documented anywhere?
PrAston said:
Appreciate all the input.
I've watched all the BR videos and I had an email exchange with Mike a few years ago. At the time, it was British Auto Repair in Phoenix that he had partnered with, but it looks like that alliance has dissolved. Might still be the best place to take it though. Anyway, I'm pretty sure I've got the liner ovality issue and not just wrist pins, mostly because I get a clattery sound on deceleration which is a symptom of piston slap.
A replacement engine is an interesting idea. I had considered that at one point, but it wasn't cost effective. The only one currently on US eBay is almost $24k, and it's used with more miles than my car. Scuderia Car Parts gave me a similar quote a couple of years ago for a remanufactured one, but that was on an exchange basis.
on UK eBay, however, I have the choice of a remanufactured or a junkyard engine for 9k GBP. Even allowing for a couple thousand in freight, that could tilt the scales in favor of fixing the car. I'm reluctant to use a junkyard engine unless its running condition can be determined, as in a car with rear collision damage. If the remanufactured one doesn't require exchange, that could be the way to go. If it does require exchange, I might still be better off rebuilding.
It does bring up some new questions:
What years of engine are plug and play with a 2005 car? I would guess anything before the change to 470hp would work?
In that vein, would it be feasible to bore the stock liners and use a custom piston, or would the ecu need a reflash or something to accommodate a change in displacement? I don't really care about more power, but liners look like the most expensive parts in a rebuild.
Regarding engine removal, the factory procedure is to basically undo the front and rear subframes and lift the body off. I'm not equipped for that as I only have a 4-post storage lift. I know someone worked out a way to remove the engine from above - is this procedure documented anywhere?
Just chipping in to say that on eBay Classified Germany sometimes engines for sale are popping up:I've watched all the BR videos and I had an email exchange with Mike a few years ago. At the time, it was British Auto Repair in Phoenix that he had partnered with, but it looks like that alliance has dissolved. Might still be the best place to take it though. Anyway, I'm pretty sure I've got the liner ovality issue and not just wrist pins, mostly because I get a clattery sound on deceleration which is a symptom of piston slap.
A replacement engine is an interesting idea. I had considered that at one point, but it wasn't cost effective. The only one currently on US eBay is almost $24k, and it's used with more miles than my car. Scuderia Car Parts gave me a similar quote a couple of years ago for a remanufactured one, but that was on an exchange basis.
on UK eBay, however, I have the choice of a remanufactured or a junkyard engine for 9k GBP. Even allowing for a couple thousand in freight, that could tilt the scales in favor of fixing the car. I'm reluctant to use a junkyard engine unless its running condition can be determined, as in a car with rear collision damage. If the remanufactured one doesn't require exchange, that could be the way to go. If it does require exchange, I might still be better off rebuilding.
It does bring up some new questions:
What years of engine are plug and play with a 2005 car? I would guess anything before the change to 470hp would work?
In that vein, would it be feasible to bore the stock liners and use a custom piston, or would the ecu need a reflash or something to accommodate a change in displacement? I don't really care about more power, but liners look like the most expensive parts in a rebuild.
Regarding engine removal, the factory procedure is to basically undo the front and rear subframes and lift the body off. I'm not equipped for that as I only have a 4-post storage lift. I know someone worked out a way to remove the engine from above - is this procedure documented anywhere?
https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/aston-...
https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/motorb...
If you don't understand German like myself, use a browser extension to have the page translated.
Maybe try looking for cars getting broken, if you can get one with crash damage the engine should be ok and get it shipped to the US.
Have a chat to Gaydon or Aston Martin Works in Newport Pagnel for costs of recon engine, that would be on exchange basis.
Another route would be taking it to a garage in the US, I've seen a video where they replaced all the internals with all Ford duratec uprated parts and get the liners bored out.
Have a chat to Gaydon or Aston Martin Works in Newport Pagnel for costs of recon engine, that would be on exchange basis.
Another route would be taking it to a garage in the US, I've seen a video where they replaced all the internals with all Ford duratec uprated parts and get the liners bored out.
I'm really hesitant to go with a used engine. For all I know, it could have been ticking just like mine when it was crashed, and the idea of going through the replacement process only to have the new engine tick like the old one...well, to say I would be apoplectic with rage is an understatement.
I'll check with Gaydon or Works Service, but if exchange is required I have to assume the freight costs would eat up any savings. McGurk's listing for a recon engine for 9k with no mention of exchange sounded really tempting because I thought I could save the return freight AND sell my old engine as a builder or core.
I'll check with Gaydon or Works Service, but if exchange is required I have to assume the freight costs would eat up any savings. McGurk's listing for a recon engine for 9k with no mention of exchange sounded really tempting because I thought I could save the return freight AND sell my old engine as a builder or core.
In an unexpected change of plans, I ended up selling it. I wasn't trying to sell -he approached me- and I did my best to warn him, but he says he doesn't care about the tick because he's old and deaf, and it may serve him well because he doesn't sound like he plans to drive it hard. It's still bittersweet despite my frustrations with the car, but objectively this was probably the best possible result. I may buy another Aston someday, but in the near term I'm ready to try something different.
PrAston said:
In an unexpected change of plans, I ended up selling it. I wasn't trying to sell -he approached me- and I did my best to warn him, but he says he doesn't care about the tick because he's old and deaf, and it may serve him well because he doesn't sound like he plans to drive it hard. It's still bittersweet despite my frustrations with the car, but objectively this was probably the best possible result. I may buy another Aston someday, but in the near term I'm ready to try something different.
Sounds like a result. You got rid of a car that was going to cost more money than you wanted to pay to fix and he got a car he wanted at a price he could afford. You told him about the tick so your conscience is clear, he acknowledged that you told him and accepted the risk. In buying cars privately then caveat emptor appliesLTP said:
PrAston said:
In an unexpected change of plans, I ended up selling it. I wasn't trying to sell -he approached me- and I did my best to warn him, but he says he doesn't care about the tick because he's old and deaf, and it may serve him well because he doesn't sound like he plans to drive it hard. It's still bittersweet despite my frustrations with the car, but objectively this was probably the best possible result. I may buy another Aston someday, but in the near term I'm ready to try something different.
Sounds like a result. You got rid of a car that was going to cost more money than you wanted to pay to fix and he got a car he wanted at a price he could afford. You told him about the tick so your conscience is clear, he acknowledged that you told him and accepted the risk. In buying cars privately then caveat emptor appliesGassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff