2013 V8V SSII - BR Upgrades, Problems, Solutions. Long read!

[amsterv8]

Warning, this will be a very long read, but hopefully an interesting one for someone considering the same and keen to know what you can expect from owning and upgrading a V8V.

So I bought my 63 plate V8 Vantage 4.7L SSII back in January.



Its been a dream come true, however there have been a couple of couple of aspects detracting from pure perfection:

1) Response from throttle is delayed. Whilst the engine eventually reacts giving a sheer thrill, the delay from having planted down on the throttle pedal is a bit underwhelming.


2) The ASM mechanism feels clunky. The ride jerk or "nodding dog" upon a change is pretty bad. Spending mind power on relaxing off the throttle to smoothen the changes detracts from the whole point of going for the Sport Shift in the first place. Driving in D and putting the foot down results in what feels like an absolute age as the ASM works its way down the gearbox ahead of the requested acceleration. During this there's obviously loss of power which can leave you stranded if you put your foot down after you steered in to insert yourself in an opening, leaving you quite embarrassed (although arguably my fault for being in D and not on the paddles at the time). At low speeds and in traffic, the jerkiness or nodding dog effect and what feels like sheer confusion from the ASM occasionally result in an awkward driving experience. It's worth flagging, I was aware this V8V was still on it's factory clutch at 35k miles at the time of buying, so already factored replacement cost in to the price.

3) Exhaust note. Don't get me wrong, it's a great noise and really adds to the thrill of acceleration in the car. But it feels ever so slightly woolly. It's loud but not so sporty or growly. Misses a real deep grunt.

Given this, I was eyeing up the Bamford Rose phase 2 upgrade pack alongside their lightweight flywheel and twin plate clutch upgrade, to save on the overlapping labour. What actually tipped it over the scales to book in 6 months in to ownership, was I got way outbid on a personalised plate I was after and I realised I could spend a fraction of the money I was otherwise going to pay for a plate on something to physically improve the drive!

Back to Bamford Rose... I've been very much a voyeur on these forums since buying my V8V in January and been impressed with Mike's background, knowledge, and content he posts. I also wanted someone outside of the main dealer network to have a look at the car at some point as its never been outside of it other than whilst with the small local garage I bought it off.

I booked in for a Friday, with collection on Saturday so the wife and I could spend some time in Stratford upon Avon. Mike was kind enough to get Jamie from the team to drive us to our hotel in town. I spoke to Mike a few times prior the day, and also exchanged some emails to make a final confirmation. Admittedly he couldn't always answer the phone, but the mornings I got through he was brilliant and a wealth of knowledge to advise and not just be administrative in entering me in a diary.

I was certain going in to the initial call I needed a baffled secondary cat. I didn't want the car too shouty and losing its symphony. Mike explained that on the V8 4.7L, the process of the primary cat delete (being a primary further upstream) leaves a hollow piping where the contents are removed before welding back. This chamber ends up reducing the exhaust noise. Replacing the secondary with a high flow unbaffled results in a very small net increase in noise, whereas a baffled secondary may just take us back to square 1 or maybe even quieter. For 4.3Ls without a separate upstream primary cat or a V12 he would recommend baffles for most folk, but not with my specific setup.
I was quite apprehensive initially, wondering if Mike just had too many unbaffled cats kicking around and trying to lumber me with some, but nonetheless I trusted his advice given the sheer number of configurations and combinations he's likely seen and heard in his time.

Initially I was only going for the lightweight flywheel, dual plate clutch, primary cat delete, and sports secondary cats (along with ECU remap). I was going to omit the airbox upgrade mostly for cost reasons. On arrival Mike explained the airbox is part of the package for the same price anyway, so went ahead with that!

Literally the weekend before dropping off at BR, my infotainment screen flickered on and off, eventually blanking out mid-use whilst reversing. The screen still continued to rise and drop when expected, but the display itself remains black. More on this later...

Before I left him with the keys, he flagged 3 things that may come up that could be worth replacing whilst the car was dismantled and included in the labour cost:

A) ASM low pressure hydraulic hose. These are usually not checked during main dealer services, and if cracked or worn which is likely in a car that's my age, would be worth replacing whilst accessible.
B) Transmission oil. Worth changing if not already done at this age, also would just be cost of the oil given everything will be easily accessible.
C) Air filters. As reported by a few folk online, main dealers may not always be changing these when they say they have, or are considered 'optional'. Given airbox will be modified anyway, can change the pair whilst at it at part cost.

I left Mike with discretion to change these if he felt required upon inspection given the part only costs were very reasonable, if they eventually went wrong (particularly the hose) they would result in further expenses one day, and it required no additional labour or time to leave the car with him.


Stratford upon Avon - a lovely town. Canal-side is great when the weather holds. The MAD museum is really worth the visit if you're mildly in to anything mechanical related (which I imagine are the majority reading this).

Fast forward to Saturday morning, picking up the car...

Whilst awaiting some final pre-collection prep, Mike took me through the changes he made and feedback on how the car was to drive. Going back to the 3 discretionary additions, he had to complete them all given the ASM hose was cracking which he showed me, the air filters were dated 2017, and the trans oil still had the factory seal.

He mentioned the infotainment fault did end up interacting with other aspects of the dairy chain and prevented steering unlocking and engine start when he was working on the ECU and various laptop driven work. As a result he advised he unplugged and disabled the screen entirely from rising given it wasn't working anyway and he wanted to prevent other interactions. Given I'd only booked a 1 day job and their expertise were more mechanical not electrical, I later sorted this at Nicholas Mee who are much closer to me geographically (nav screen assembly error showed on AMDS so was replaced, diagnosed and fixed by them for 2.5 hours labour + the part).

Thoughts post the BR upgrade:

1) Throttle response much sharper. No longer the lag when jamming the throttle open. Guessing this is due to a combination of the airbox modification, the lighter flywheel able to spin up quicker, and the catalyst changes freeing exhaust output.

2) Gearbox in D feels closer to a proper automatic with torque converter. Closer, but not perfect. I prefer it over a manual though. Planting your foot down in D now sees the gearbox working its way down way quicker. On paddles, the changes are way more rapid especially noticeable at lower speeds. No longer feel I need to be as concerned with lifting off throttle during gear changes as much. It wasnt as sublime as others had reviewed it to be, but more on this later...

3) Exhaust note now controllable with the 3 way switch hidden by the left knee out of sight. I was previously using a remote CC fuse 15 controller but the added option of permanent closed "stealth mode" is useful. The noise change... AMAZING. Not ridiculously crazy loud trumpets but a louder and more menacing note with great depth. Exactly what I wanted. Mike got the unbaffled recommendation spot on. Interestingly, the monotonous conversation drowning noise in the cabin at higher cruising speeds is gone, I'm guessing as a result of the primary cat delete that would have grumbled upstream nearer the cabin. The exhaust noise feels more concentrated out back now.

BREAKDOWN:

... Fast forward 3 weeks and the car started stalling when coasting to a stop or trying to lift away at traffic lights from stationary. I had the dreaded "Gearbox fault" warning message and the car wouldn't engage gear and start moving until several restart attempts whilst holding up traffic on the A406. Managed to get it going but swiftly pulled up on a side road to get recovered home. It seems even after fixing the nav screen some electrical gremlin persisted.



After trawling through forums I gathered it may be a voltage issue from an old battery. Checking the battery it looked to be the factory original so 8 years old.



Ordered a new Bosch AGM battery and got to work installing it one late evening. Huge pain to do but glad once it was done. Cleared error codes with a cheap ODB2 reader which let me drive again. All seemed well until 6 miles after the car produced the same error message and stayed in neutral until I cleared the codes to drive carefully home.

Got in touch with Mike who figured pretty quickly it may be a faulty transmission control unit (TCU) failing to write the clutch learn parameters. He suggested if this error existed before, it may have just shown itself in jerky gear changes as the single plate clutch would slip, but the now upgraded twin plate clutch would bite harder with the increased friction and result in a stall.

Had the car transported to Mike, which annoyingly was before the week I was to drive to the Norfolk coast for a holiday so had to take the Fiesta there instead. Ended up getting rear ended by a speeding driver on wet country roads in Norfolk so in the end probably worked in my favour!

After short while with the car, Mike was able to replicate the issue and diagnose it to indeed be the TCU. Replaced along with cleaning of various electrical contacts to ensure all was well. Mike was worried about my battered vallet key getting stuck one day so also threw in a free key refresh (was already planning this so now with a spare brand new sealed vallet key repair kit if anyone's interested!).



Mike explained how my initial clutch upgrade was a 1 day job so the issue I faced 3 weeks later didn't have time to manifest or display itself. I totally empathise with this and along with the key refresh thrown in, I'm still a happy customer even if I ended up spending more than I initially planned for (cue various disagreements on this...).

Back to improvement number 2...the drive is now sublime. The gear changes feel so damn smooth!

This is the drive I craved and now I finally have it. In conclusion I now have a renewed battery, new nav screen assembly so risk of gears jamming soon, new TCU, upgraded twin plate clutch, lightweight flywheel, airbox upgrade, remapped ECU, deleted primary cats, upgraded high flow secondary cats, and a massive smile on my face. Motoring heaven. I'm confident there aren't any gremlins lurking beneath the surface anymore which is hard to put a price on.

All in all, a great experience with Bamford Rose, Nicholas Mee too, and my Vantage feels in a league better than before.

[Dobie177]

An enjoyable read - thanks for sharing your journey! Sounds like you've now got the car you wanted. Good, also, to hear some positives re BR given the recent thread.

[BiggaJ]

You sound like a happy chap now, nice read and one sorted car.
I don't think anyone doubts Mike's knowledge and experience, it such a shame he struggles with communication.

Anyway, enjoy your car ... They are special cars.

[LTP]

Great read and all good to know, as I have a 2015 car with virtually the same spec although lower mileage, but I plan a twin-plate clutch in the future. (although sadly I’ll have to fund a machined torque tube as well).

A few questions, if I may.

1. Is yours a 420 bhp standard 4.7 or a 430 bhp ‘S’?
2. Have you noticed any of the gear chatter in neutral that some gearboxes can exhibit with a lightweight flywheel?
3. When you refer to smooth gearchanges, is that on paddles, in “D”, or both?
4. Have you noticed any difference when pulling away on a light throttle in traffic?

[macdeb]

^^^^ Isn't the difference between an 'standard' 4.7 as you put it against an 'S' merely down to an airbox mod and at full chat? Not earth shattering is it?

[LTP]

macdeb said:

^^^^ Isn't the difference between an 'standard' 4.7 as you put it against an 'S' merely down to an airbox mod and at full chat? Not earth shattering is it?

No. Whilst the valved airbox is part I also believe that it’s a different tune (apart from the part of the tune that operates the airbox valves) as the cars have different power and torque curves pretty well across the range. Plus I really don’t see why you’re bothered about questions I want to ask the OP, earth shattering or not.

edited to add
Also I believe the ‘S’ had a “sports” backbox which, if true, might affect the results of the exhaust noise tuning. For info, my 4.7 doesn’t appear to have any of the “conversation drowning” in the cabin that amsterV8 referred to, at least to my ears. So it’s useful to know the spec of the car

Edited by LTP on Sunday 5th September 22:23

[AdamV12V]

LTP said:

No. Whilst the valved airbox is part I also believe that it’s a different tune (apart from the part of the tune that operates the airbox valves) as the cars have different power and torque curves pretty well across the range. Plus I really don’t see why you’re bothered about questions I want to ask the OP, earth shattering or not.

edited to add
Also I believe the ‘S’ had a “sports” backbox which, if true, might affect the results of the exhaust noise tuning. For info, my 4.7 doesn’t appear to have any of the “conversation drowning” in the cabin that amsterV8 referred to, at least to my ears. So it’s useful to know the spec of the car

Edited by LTP on Sunday 5th September 22:23

To the best of my knowledge the valved airboxes are the only difference to the engine itself on the V8 420 and 430 bhp versions. Thats not to say there wasnt a whole lot more upgrades that went into other aspects of the V8VS, such as suspension, exhaust, trim etc... but in terms of power output I believe the airbox gave the 10bhp.

The std airbox and valved airboxes seem to have had an interesting life in various versions of both the V8 and V12 engines (same airboxes used), with the valved version being added then removed again, only to be added back again later thoughout the life cycle of both engines.

I shall use just the Vantage in the table below to illustrate, but clearly there are lots more versions of the V12 power output besides the ones below.

Model	Power (BHP)	Airbox
V8V
4.3 V8V	380	Standard
N400 4.3 V8V	400	Valved
4.7 V8V	420	Standard
4.7 V8VS	430	Valved
V12V
V12V	510	Valved
V12VS pre MY17	565	Valved
V12VS MY17 non sport plus pack	560	Standard
V12VS MY17 with sport plus pack	565	Valved
GT12 / AMR V12VS	595	Valved

Edited by AdamV12V on Monday 6th September 09:42

[EVR]

Nice read, informative and interesting.

Glad you have the car you always wanted now!

[LTP]

AdamV12V said:

To the best of my knowledge the valved airboxes are the only difference to the engine itself on the V8 420 and 430 bhp versions.

Thanks Adam. Not doubting your claim that the airbox is the only difference (promptly expresses doubts) but the power and torque curves for the two engine variants differ across the entire rev range, according to the diagrams in my manual. I would have expected the two curves to be identical until the airbox valves opened if it were only the airboxes. But I could wrong

Edited by LTP on Monday 6th September 19:19

[AdamV12V]

LTP said:

AdamV12V said:

To the best of my knowledge the valved airboxes are the only difference to the engine itself on the V8 420 and 430 bhp versions.

Thanks Adam. Not doubting your claim that the airbox is the only difference (promptly expresses doubts) but the power and torque curves for the two engine variants differ across the entire rev range, according to the diagrams in my manual. I would have expected the two curves to be identical until the airbox valves opened if it were only the airboxes. But I could wrong

Edited by LTP on Monday 6th September 19:19

Fair point, and one which I don't know the answer to for sure. Perhaps the airbox valves are more variable than just open or closed resulting in the spread of change more like you describe? I guess we need one of our more engineeringly minded members to comment here. I am just going on my knowledge of spec differences gleaned over the years of interest in the subject, rather than any engineering skills myself.

[amsterv8]

LTP said:

Great read and all good to know, as I have a 2015 car with virtually the same spec although lower mileage, but I plan a twin-plate clutch in the future. (although sadly I’ll have to fund a machined torque tube as well).

A few questions, if I may.

1. Is yours a 420 bhp standard 4.7 or a 430 bhp ‘S’?
2. Have you noticed any of the gear chatter in neutral that some gearboxes can exhibit with a lightweight flywheel?
3. When you refer to smooth gearchanges, is that on paddles, in “D”, or both?
4. Have you noticed any difference when pulling away on a light throttle in traffic?

420bhp Non-S 4.7L.

Havent noticed any flywheel chatter personally, that may differ between cars though.

The biggest improvement is on the light throttle pull aways where you're not edging up near rev limit so delivery is smooth acceleration though the gears. The twin plate clutch is handling it all way smoother. Coming to a stop the rev matching and shifts down also feel better. A lot of this may in fact be down to the replacement of the faulty TCU, but there was still some improvement before that bit got fixed.
Both D mode and paddles smoother with less "nodding dog" from a shorter power gap and easier re-engagement.

In regards to the S, Mike did mention that after the airbox upgrade the only real difference left mechanically is the backbox which is more aggressive on the S. I suspect that may better suit baffled cats but defer to Mike!

[Dewi 2]

LTP said:

Great read and all good to know, as I have a 2015 car with virtually the same spec although lower mileage, but I plan a twin-plate clutch in the future. (although sadly I’ll have to fund a machined torque tube as well).

A few questions, if I may.

1. Is yours a 420 bhp standard 4.7 or a 430 bhp ‘S’?
2. Have you noticed any of the gear chatter in neutral that some gearboxes can exhibit with a lightweight flywheel?
3. When you refer to smooth gearchanges, is that on paddles, in “D”, or both?
4. Have you noticed any difference when pulling away on a light throttle in traffic?

amsterv8 has answered your questions Paul, so I will just add my own experience of gear chatter.
My car is an 2009 manual.

I understand that the amount of gear chatter certainly varies between different cars. A variation in tolerances I suppose. Before the twin plate clutch was fitted to my car, I had chatter when driving on light throttle in 2nd gear at low revs (don't think I ever noticed it in 1st). When heard, additional acceleration, revs rise a little and the chatter stops. Never had chatter noise when idling in neutral.
With the twin plate clutch, there is now very occasional chatter in neutral if listening carefully, but very quiet. Anyone who experiences greater chatter than I have described with single plate clutch, would be wise not to have a lighter flywheel when changing to twin plate. Presumably then they can be fairly sure, that the gear chatter on their car will be no worse than before.

The V12 of course is a smoother engine, so gear chatter with a twin plate clutch does not occur.

[LTP]

amsterv8 said:

420bhp Non-S 4.7L.

Havent noticed any flywheel chatter personally, that may differ between cars though.

The biggest improvement is on the light throttle pull aways where you're not edging up near rev limit so delivery is smooth acceleration though the gears. The twin plate clutch is handling it all way smoother. Coming to a stop the rev matching and shifts down also feel better. A lot of this may in fact be down to the replacement of the faulty TCU, but there was still some improvement before that bit got fixed.
Both D mode and paddles smoother with less "nodding dog" from a shorter power gap and easier re-engagement.

In regards to the S, Mike did mention that after the airbox upgrade the only real difference left mechanically is the backbox which is more aggressive on the S. I suspect that may better suit baffled cats but defer to Mike!

Thanks for confirming - same spec as mine (with the exception of the faulty TCU, as far as I know). The worse part of my experience with the SSII is light throttle, especially when you’re just cracking the throttle open to persuade the clutch to start to engage (but not fully engage) to creep the car forward.

I did wonder if the ECU remap you talked about with the cats and valved airboxes would effectively map it to the 430 bhp, especially after Mike’s comment that the only difference now is the backbox

Many thanks for your response - definitely filed for future reference.

P. S. I was going to email you, but you have emails turned off.

[Dewi 2]

LTP said:

I did wonder if the ECU remap you talked about with the cats and valved airboxes would effectively map it to the 430 bhp, especially after Mike’s comment that the only difference now is the backbox

I can give my experience if you wish, Paul.

For the BR airbox mod, Mike said about 10 bhp increase (not quite sure what is involved, but there was mention of it being the same as Prodrive used for their 4.3 modification kit in 2007). My car only has one pair of cats with double innards, whereas yours will have primaries and secondaries. With the first 'bricks' out of mine, about 20 bhp extra. Therefore presumably my car is now 450 bhp. Although only a 7% increase, the greater liveliness can be felt on full throttle. Extra noise just right for me too. The 3 position switch only has one position for me, with occasional OEM position just to exercise the valves.

[LTP]

Dewi 2 said:

I can give my experience if you wish, Paul.

For the BR airbox mod, Mike said about 10 bhp increase (not quite sure what is involved, but there was mention of it being the same as Prodrive used for their 4.3 modification kit in 2007). My car only has one pair of cats with double innards, whereas yours will have primaries and secondaries. With the first 'bricks' out of mine, about 20 bhp extra. Therefore presumably my car is now 450 bhp. Although only a 7% increase, the greater liveliness can be felt on full throttle. Extra noise just right for me too. The 3 position switch only has one position for me, with occasional OEM position just to exercise the valves.

Thanks for that - much appreciated. I’m not sure I’m after extra power, or even extra sound. What I am definitely interested in is any improvements I can get to my SSII and maybe improve how free-revving the engine is but without risk of inducing extra noise like gear chatter.

[Dewi 2]

LTP said:

Thanks for that - much appreciated. I’m not sure I’m after extra power, or even extra sound. What I am definitely interested in is any improvements I can get to my SSII and maybe improve how free-revving the engine is but without risk of inducing extra noise like gear chatter.

We posted at at almost the same time, further up the page.
Did you see my post about gear chatter?

Do you get some chatter now?

[LTP]

Dewi 2 said:

Did you see my post about gear chatter?

Do you get some chatter now?

I hadn’t, but I have read it now. Thanks.

As far as chatter in my car goes, not to my non-expert ears, no. I’ll have to make an effort to listen for it to try to be sure but, like many of this sort of phenomena, an expert can often spot something an owner has never noticed. Without hearing it in a car to understand how intrusive it is (or isn’t) I wouldn’t want to run the risk of inducing it. As far as I’m aware BR offers a heavier flywheel with their twin plate clutch as an option to avoid chatter, but with the downside of a less free-revving engine.

I treat my V8V more as a GT car, so I appreciate a civilised cabin at motorway speeds

[Dewi 2]

LTP said:

I hadn’t, but I have read it now. Thanks.

As far as chatter in my car goes, not to my non-expert ears, no. I’ll have to make an effort to listen for it to try to be sure but, like many of this sort of phenomena, an expert can often spot something an owner has never noticed. Without hearing it in a car to understand how intrusive it is (or isn’t) I wouldn’t want to run the risk of inducing it. As far as I’m aware BR offers a heavier flywheel with their twin plate clutch as an option to avoid chatter, but with the downside of a less free-revving engine.

I treat my V8V more as a GT car, so I appreciate a civilised cabin at motorway speeds

If you have never heard any gear chatter with your car Paul, then you must be at the best end of the variation scale. In which case a lighter flywheel should be fine.
You can check by driving slower than would normally be sensible for 2nd gear, say about 15 mph with trailing throttle. If you don't hear it then, your car is one of the better ones.

As for noise, even with my cat modification, inside the car it still sounds as quiet as standard when using steady throttle at motorway speeds, even with valves open (OEM they would at that time be closed). Anyway, the valves can always be kept closed at any time, using the switch. In the cabin (Coupe), I only hear the exhaust thunder with hard acceleration.