V12 Vantage cat failure
Discussion
I have a 2010 V12 Vantage with secondary cat delete and have just discovered that the cats need replacing. I only recently had new plugs and coils due to a misfire so I'm slightly concerned about cat ingestion. The technician who's working on the car has told me he'll be able to get an idea if that's likely to be an issue when he takes the cats off and is able to inspect them. But he's fairly optimistic it's ok. I'll cross that bridge if it comes. They're quoting £9000 all in for replacing the cats. I'm considering replacing them with raw stainless Quicksilver manifolds and cats as they look to be about 2/3 the price of the genuine ones but seem a bit difficult to find. I'm wondering if anyone has experience of them? Does the ECU need a re-map to keep the emissions light off? Has anyone had any trouble passing an MoT test? All advice greatfully received.
Why do the primary cats need replacing? How quickly did you rectify the mis-fire issue, as this will give some indication of the period of time unburnt fuel will have reached the primary cat?
I’ve wondered whether it would be feasible to cut open the existing primary cat, remove the cat material and then re-weld. Making the necessary ECU changes and refitting the secondary cat to meet the emission regs. Not sure whether this is doable?
I’ve wondered whether it would be feasible to cut open the existing primary cat, remove the cat material and then re-weld. Making the necessary ECU changes and refitting the secondary cat to meet the emission regs. Not sure whether this is doable?
Yeah, I’ve seen the BR video, I was wondering if there were any owners out there with first hand experience they could pass on? Also of living with the QS manifolds.
The misfire was found during a health check when the car went in for MoT test in August and was rectified then, the engine light wasn’t on. Subsequently it started running rough, after I almost ran out of petrol 😖 at which point the emissions light came on. That was down to a split air hose on the inlet side and again, was rectified. Car was running fine, went on holiday, emissions light came back on, car still running fine, cracked on, about 400 miles, a few start/stop cycles, emissions light cleared. About 500 miles later as car’s on its way in for a service, emissions light came back on and I found it needs new cats.
I just thought I’d see if anyone had had something similar and what the outcome was? I’m working out how to try to reduce the 9 grand bill and also try to prevent things getting worse.
The misfire was found during a health check when the car went in for MoT test in August and was rectified then, the engine light wasn’t on. Subsequently it started running rough, after I almost ran out of petrol 😖 at which point the emissions light came on. That was down to a split air hose on the inlet side and again, was rectified. Car was running fine, went on holiday, emissions light came back on, car still running fine, cracked on, about 400 miles, a few start/stop cycles, emissions light cleared. About 500 miles later as car’s on its way in for a service, emissions light came back on and I found it needs new cats.
I just thought I’d see if anyone had had something similar and what the outcome was? I’m working out how to try to reduce the 9 grand bill and also try to prevent things getting worse.
Sorry to hear this. I haven’t been in this position so can’t help directly.
Some indirect help: my V12VS has had the primary cats deleted, and I still get the Emissions Service Required message from time to time. I think I’d want to be absolutely assured that the primary cats had failed if there is any suggestion that it is that message which leads to that conclusion.
Secondly, it looks like the QS manifolds plus cat package is an exhaust manifold without primary cats, and the supplied cats are secondaries. Assume you know this.
Thirdly, BR and David Appleby Engineering both do the same solution (catless manifold plus new secondaries). From memory the DAE solution is around the same price as the QS product and the BR is slightly cheaper. Both DAE and BR market their manifolds as an improvement over the factory fitted version because the pipe work is redesigned to be of equal length for each cylinder. Whilst this is reported to give a power bump (like every exhaust mod ever is) I’ve read that the redesigned pipe work changes the exhaust note to one that is closer to a Ferrari V12. Can’t confirm.
If you delete the primary cats and run solely on the secondaries you *do* need an ECU flash to keep the emissions light on. The car will get through an MOT just on the secondaries - but it will need a sympathetic tester who knows that the primaries aren’t there: the secondaries need to be hot as hot can be before the testing is done. Empirically the factory primaries are 600 cells per side and the secondaries are 400 cells per side. Primary delete plus racing secondaries gives you just 200 cells be side - quite a difference, which is why they need to be running optimally (hot) to pass and MOT. But they will pass provided the tester is aware.
ETA: as a matter of interest, is your car at an AM dealer right now and if so which one?
Some indirect help: my V12VS has had the primary cats deleted, and I still get the Emissions Service Required message from time to time. I think I’d want to be absolutely assured that the primary cats had failed if there is any suggestion that it is that message which leads to that conclusion.
Secondly, it looks like the QS manifolds plus cat package is an exhaust manifold without primary cats, and the supplied cats are secondaries. Assume you know this.
Thirdly, BR and David Appleby Engineering both do the same solution (catless manifold plus new secondaries). From memory the DAE solution is around the same price as the QS product and the BR is slightly cheaper. Both DAE and BR market their manifolds as an improvement over the factory fitted version because the pipe work is redesigned to be of equal length for each cylinder. Whilst this is reported to give a power bump (like every exhaust mod ever is) I’ve read that the redesigned pipe work changes the exhaust note to one that is closer to a Ferrari V12. Can’t confirm.
If you delete the primary cats and run solely on the secondaries you *do* need an ECU flash to keep the emissions light on. The car will get through an MOT just on the secondaries - but it will need a sympathetic tester who knows that the primaries aren’t there: the secondaries need to be hot as hot can be before the testing is done. Empirically the factory primaries are 600 cells per side and the secondaries are 400 cells per side. Primary delete plus racing secondaries gives you just 200 cells be side - quite a difference, which is why they need to be running optimally (hot) to pass and MOT. But they will pass provided the tester is aware.
ETA: as a matter of interest, is your car at an AM dealer right now and if so which one?
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 29th October 15:01
Number Eight said:
I have a 2010 V12 Vantage with secondary cat delete and have just discovered that the cats need replacing. I only recently had new plugs and coils due to a misfire so I'm slightly concerned about cat ingestion. The technician who's working on the car has told me he'll be able to get an idea if that's likely to be an issue when he takes the cats off and is able to inspect them. But he's fairly optimistic it's ok. I'll cross that bridge if it comes. They're quoting £9000 all in for replacing the cats. I'm considering replacing them with raw stainless Quicksilver manifolds and cats as they look to be about 2/3 the price of the genuine ones but seem a bit difficult to find. I'm wondering if anyone has experience of them? Does the ECU need a re-map to keep the emissions light off? Has anyone had any trouble passing an MoT test? All advice greatfully received.
If you have primaries and secondary cats out, you will not pass an MOT.Primary cats removed does require an ecu update to stop the EML coming on.
I had the primaries taken out of my DB9 by BR (cut out and original manifold). The most recent MOT tester showed me it just failing emissions (have the emission levels been dropped as it never happened before), but after a quick run round the block to warm up the secondaries it was just under the threshold so all good.
BlackWidow13 said:
Sorry to hear this. I haven’t been in this position so can’t help directly.
Some indirect help: my V12VS has had the primary cats deleted, and I still get the Emissions Service Required message from time to time. I think I’d want to be absolutely assured that the primary cats had failed if there is any suggestion that it is that message which leads to that conclusion.
Secondly, it looks like the QS manifolds plus cat package is an exhaust manifold without primary cats, and the supplied cats are secondaries. Assume you know this.
Thirdly, BR and David Appleby Engineering both do the same solution (catless manifold plus new secondaries). From memory the DAE solution is around the same price as the QS product and the BR is slightly cheaper. Both DAE and BR market their manifolds as an improvement over the factory fitted version because the pipe work is redesigned to be of equal length for each cylinder. Whilst this is reported to give a power bump (like every exhaust mod ever is) I’ve read that the redesigned pipe work changes the exhaust note to one that is closer to a Ferrari V12. Can’t confirm.
A buddy of mine and I have just ordered the QS manifolds + race cats. Did you notice any performance gain?Some indirect help: my V12VS has had the primary cats deleted, and I still get the Emissions Service Required message from time to time. I think I’d want to be absolutely assured that the primary cats had failed if there is any suggestion that it is that message which leads to that conclusion.
Secondly, it looks like the QS manifolds plus cat package is an exhaust manifold without primary cats, and the supplied cats are secondaries. Assume you know this.
Thirdly, BR and David Appleby Engineering both do the same solution (catless manifold plus new secondaries). From memory the DAE solution is around the same price as the QS product and the BR is slightly cheaper. Both DAE and BR market their manifolds as an improvement over the factory fitted version because the pipe work is redesigned to be of equal length for each cylinder. Whilst this is reported to give a power bump (like every exhaust mod ever is) I’ve read that the redesigned pipe work changes the exhaust note to one that is closer to a Ferrari V12. Can’t confirm.
Edited by BlackWidow13 on Friday 29th October 15:01
Many thanks for all that. The car’s at Nottingham at the minute. The fault code comes up as “Cat below threshold” and they’ve sent me a photo of the Lamda sensor graphs, now I’ve had them explained to me by the technician who’s dealing with it, I’ll have another look. What you’ve all said aligns with what the technician told me about deleting the primary cats, he said he had a Vanquish in recently with the QS manifolds and couldn’t get it through the MoT test. The DAE option looks like it comes as part of their performance pack with filters and ECU remap, I’m not sure I want to stray that far from originality puls it’s not that much cheaper and it’ll probably cost the remainder to get the car transported down there. I’ve seen a pair of original manifolds, advertised as new (and looking new) on Aston Martin Bits which come in £300 less than what the dealer’s quoting, which is a start. When I spoke to the tech I asked about getting a borescope into the cylinder to see what it looks like but that means getting in through the spark plug sockets which sounds expensive. I think we’ll have to see how bad the cats look when they come out and go from there. Might have to let it sit until I saved the money to pay for it though.
M1AGM said:
If you have primaries and secondary cats out, you will not pass an MOT.
Primary cats removed does require an ecu update to stop the EML coming on.
I had the primaries taken out of my DB9 by BR (cut out and original manifold). The most recent MOT tester showed me it just failing emissions (have the emission levels been dropped as it never happened before), but after a quick run round the block to warm up the secondaries it was just under the threshold so all good.
Have the MOT emissions level been lowered recently?? Do you have the standard or high flow secondaries?Primary cats removed does require an ecu update to stop the EML coming on.
I had the primaries taken out of my DB9 by BR (cut out and original manifold). The most recent MOT tester showed me it just failing emissions (have the emission levels been dropped as it never happened before), but after a quick run round the block to warm up the secondaries it was just under the threshold so all good.
The BR Primary decat delete owners may have some problems!!
Edited by paulrog1 on Saturday 30th October 17:30
I did the primary cat delete with tubular pipes replacing the original primary cats and installed (replaced) my secondaries with DAE items. After an ECU update my car went straight through the MOT emissions test with readings as virtually zero, so no struggling at all. Drove in with engine up to normal running temp, pipe up and straight through.
It makes the exhaust noticeably louder and would be uncomfortably so without the secondaries or with a "performance" rear silencer. You would have an ASBO in days!!
Noticeable hike in response and power, reduction in weight, and insurance against CAT ingestion.
My original, perfect manifolds are on a certain auction website if you wanted to keep all standard OEM.
It makes the exhaust noticeably louder and would be uncomfortably so without the secondaries or with a "performance" rear silencer. You would have an ASBO in days!!
Noticeable hike in response and power, reduction in weight, and insurance against CAT ingestion.
My original, perfect manifolds are on a certain auction website if you wanted to keep all standard OEM.
Gassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff