Is AM to be another Mercedes?

[NMNeil]

Just saw a Reuters video about AM and their move to all electric, but they plan to use Mercedes motors and technology.
Good or bad, or will AM just become a rebadged Mercedes in future?
Opinions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iyafz0kpOE

[kambites]

The drive-train is not the car, so no.

[GT3ZZZ]

The drivetrain is the soul of the car. So it will be just another Merc in a Savile Row suit.

The days of supercars are almost over.

[Simpo Two]

NMNeil said:

Good or bad, or will AM just become a rebadged Mercedes in future?

If you extrapolate the lines, yes.

I have an E300 Merc on loan. Got a surprise when I looked at the centre console of a DB11...

[Jon39]

AML and Daimler began a cooperation deal in 2008, then in 2013 a more comprehensive agreement was made, whereby AML could buy in a Mercedes-Benz V8 engine and electrical systems (although not the latest MB system). An AML shareholding was given to Daimler.

The business relationship is therefore not new, but was extended in 2020 to other MB components, including EV systems.

It would have been impossible for AML to develop a PHEV or EV themselves from scratch. The M-B agreement is therefore the only way forward, now that governments are imposing deadlines to end the sale of new IC cars.

AML, particularly during what is called the VH era (2005 to 2018), relied heavily on repeat business from very supportive existing customers. This aspect appears to be fading now, but many of those owners do not seem very keen about wanting to own an electric sports car. Instead, keeping the VH car they already own has become appealing, whilst waiting to see what happens with EVs.

This raises uncertainties for an electric era AML, so it is impossible to know what is going to happen. M-B components will enable AML to design and launch new EV models, but the big question is how strong will be the demand ?

[Simpo Two]

Jon39 said:

This raises uncertainties for an electric era AML, so it is impossible to know what is going to happen. M-B components will enable AML to design and launch new EV models, but the big question is how strong will be the demand ?

If its rivals also go electric then you have a status quo. More important perhaps is how long The Badge will continue to maintain its prestige, which IMHO is a big part of why people buy Astons.

On a sideline the DB11 never greatly appealed to me until I saw a dark blue Volante at the weekend. Then I wanted one. What a difference colour makes.

[Super Sonic]

When AM start building vehicles of all sizes from A class to Zetros.

[alabbasi]

When the CEO was let go and they bought in a Mercedes Benz exec, I immediately thought that this was to pave way for the purchase of AM by MB. I've been in enough acquisitions to know what this looks like.

It would make sense. VW has Bentley, BMW has Rolls Royce. Mercedes Benz has not been able to crack into the ultra luxury market with Maybach because people expect an ultra luxury car to be British.

[Nbgring]

alabbasi said:

When the CEO was let go and they bought in a Mercedes Benz exec, I immediately thought that this was to pave way for the purchase of AM by MB. I've been in enough acquisitions to know what this looks like.

It would make sense. VW has Bentley, BMW has Rolls Royce. Mercedes Benz has not been able to crack into the ultra luxury market with Maybach because people expect an ultra luxury car to be British.

Maybach sold like 16000 cars last year - twice the AML volume?
Maybach, Ferrari, Maserati, Bugatti, Lamborghini are German, Italian or French ultra luxury cars - the main difference to British cars is the profitablility?

[Nbgring]

Jon39 said:

AML and Daimler began a cooperation deal in 2008, then in 2013 a more comprehensive agreement was made, whereby AML could buy in a Mercedes-Benz V8 engine and electrical systems (although not the latest MB system). An AML shareholding was given to Daimler.

The business relationship is therefore not new, but was extended in 2020 to other MB components, including EV systems.

It would have been impossible for AML to develop a PHEV or EV themselves from scratch. The M-B agreement is therefore the only way forward, now that governments are imposing deadlines to end the sale of new IC cars.

AML, particularly during what is called the VH era (2005 to 2018), relied heavily on repeat business from very supportive existing customers. This aspect appears to be fading now, but many of those owners do not seem very keen about wanting to own an electric sports car. Instead, keeping the VH car they already own has become appealing, whilst waiting to see what happens with EVs.

This raises uncertainties for an electric era AML, so it is impossible to know what is going to happen. M-B components will enable AML to design and launch new EV models, but the big question is how strong will be the demand ?

Excellent summary,
My VH Vantage SP10 will be handed down to my daughter and it will be part of the family

The more frequently I get exposed to EVs - and they are better and better every year - the more I get used to the idea to buy one of these. If AML can develop an attractive portfolio I may be driving an AML-EV in few years...

[alabbasi]

Nbgring said:

Maybach sold like 16000 cars last year - twice the AML volume?
Maybach, Ferrari, Maserati, Bugatti, Lamborghini are German, Italian or French ultra luxury cars - the main difference to British cars is the profitablility?

Maybach is no longer an independent brand with it's own car, but instead and option package for their S and GLE models. That would be like saying that Ghia is more successful than Pininfarina based on Ford Cortina sales alone.

[Jon39]

alabbasi said:

Maybach is no longer an independent brand with it's own car, but instead and option package for their S and GLE models. That would be like saying that Ghia is more successful than Pininfarina based on Ford Cortina sales alone.

It is my understanding that Mercedes did try to establish Maybach as a Rolls Royce challenger, but presumably sales did not meet expectations. As alabbasi said, the car was discontinued and now the name is used as a version of the S-Class.
Not sure if there are any body differences, but here are two photos. Maybach looks long wheelbase, but that is probably also available as S-Class.


S Class.




Maybach.



I have never seen a benefit for Daimler to own AML. They already have top brand image and a product for every segment. Expect they sell more Maybach versions, than Aston Martin sold the competing (supposedly) Taraff.
Perhaps surprisingly, even after introducing their Golf size A-Class, that did not seem to impact adversely their upper model sales.

[Simpo Two]

Jon39 said:

It is my understanding that Mercedes did try to establish Maybach as a Rolls Royce challenger, but presumably sales did not meet expectations. As alabbasi said, the car was discontinued and now the name is used as a version of the S-Class.

Another example of a brand diminishing to a variant.

But if we want to play Russian dolls with brands, there's also a Maybach 'Zeppelin': https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202202152...

Had things shaken out differently we might find that AM is being absorbed by Zeppelin!

[NMNeil]

kambites said:

The drive-train is not the car, so no.

The first Rolls Royce cars were sold as just a chassis, engine, transmission and running gear. The buyer then had a body made and fitted by their coachbuilder, often Barker.
Now you start with a BMW engine, transmission and running gear, and Rolls Royce, owned by BMW, put the body on.
So, is it a Rolls Royce or a BMW?

[Speedraser]

The engine and structure/platform make up the heart, soul and bones of a car. An "Aston" with a Benz driveline is not an Aston, not to me. An "Aston" with a Benz engine isn't an Aston to me -- it's half an Aston at best. I have zero interest in an "Aston" with a Benz electric driveline, just as I have zero interest in an "Aston" with the Benz V8. Current management is not only planning to use Benz drivelines but they're also considering using Benz platforms/structures. Let's not forget -- Moers is on record stating that the "key differentiator" -- the key thing that distinguishes one marque from another -- will be the infotainment system. Not the engine, not the structure, but the infotainment. Would a Ferrari with a Benz engine (or structure) be a Ferrari? Of course not, and the notion of Ferrari doing such a thing is preposterous -- because the answer is obvious. Same goes for Aston Martin.

Also... Why are we all being forced, with astounding vigor, into an all-EV world in the short term? Why? Why do we never hear that it takes, depending on the utility power source, typically around 60-70k miles (according to most studies and ignoring the outliers on both ends) for an EV to be "better for the environment" than an ICE car (much more for coal utilities, less for nuclear)? Many exotics will never cover enough miles for an EV exotic to be better for the environment ("cradle to grave," which is what matters) than an ICE-powered one. Why is there virtually no discussion about the negatives of EVs? There are many, in manufacturing and in use. Where are all the rare materials (lithium and cobalt, to name just two) that are required to build e-motors and batteries going to come from? Overwhelmingly from China, and a lot from places like the Congo. How environmentally friendly is manufacturing in China??? Ah, right, it's the world's biggest polluter by far.Yes, we're tying to develop motors and batteries using alternative materials, but we have a very long way to go. How are we going to have the infrastructure in place, including the electrical grid, to charge the enormous number of EVs we're supposed to have in the near-future? We're SO FAR away from being able to support that. Further, ICE continue to get even cleaner. To be clear, I am NOT anti-EV. I am anti-only-EV. EVs and ICE vehicles both have pros and cons. If we genuinely want to improve things we need to have more information, less politics, and honest discussions.

[LooneyTunes]

Jon39 said:

I have never seen a benefit for Daimler to own AML. They already have top brand image and a product for every segment. Expect they sell more Maybach versions, than Aston Martin sold the competing (supposedly) Taraff.

They don’t have a proper luxury performance car brand?

Sure they’ve got maybach as a supposedly luxury brand. I only know one owner, he likes it, but I fear he also likes gold taps.

There is no doubt that AMG can built a fast car but they do rather seem to go in for big badges, very aggressive design, and don’t pull off elegance. Their owners, at least where I live, seem to relish the “bad boy” image. It’s not one that I suspect appeals to your typical Aston owner.

I’m increasingly resigned to the fact that ownership by a proper company is probably the only was AML survives, and that they’ll have little choice but to share more parts. Things have to change to go EV so we might as well accept the reality that they won’t be what we’ve all owned before. Just hope that they resist the temptation to make them vulgar.

As for timing, I suspect there will be a period of waiting for the current owners to become “motivated sellers”.

[MMarkM]

Not really much different from suggesting a an early DB9 was a ford or a volvo really....

[Jon39]

LooneyTunes said:

Jon39 said:

I have never seen a benefit for Daimler to own AML.

... They don’t have a proper luxury performance car brand?

Sure they’ve got maybach as a supposedly luxury brand. I only know one owner, he likes it, but I fear he also likes gold taps. ...

Yes, would gauche be a word to describe that model?

On a serious point though, Mercedes-Benz last year sold 2,750,000 vehicles.
Revenue €167,900,000,000.
Pre-tax profit €14,000,000,000.

Sales of the luxury S-Class, were just under 90,000.

If Aston Martin were to become a subsidiary, an extra 6,000 vehicles, plus a financial loss, would barely make any difference at all to Mercedes.
That is why I wonder, what would be the benefit to the Mercedes-Benz Group?

[Minglar]

Jon39 said:

LooneyTunes said:

Jon39 said:

I have never seen a benefit for Daimler to own AML.

... They don’t have a proper luxury performance car brand?

Sure they’ve got maybach as a supposedly luxury brand. I only know one owner, he likes it, but I fear he also likes gold taps. ...

Yes, would gauche be a word to describe that model?

On a serious point though, Mercedes-Benz last year sold 2,750,000 vehicles.
Revenue €167,900,000,000.
Pre-tax profit €14,000,000,000.

Sales of the luxury S-Class, were just under 90,000.

If Aston Martin were to become a subsidiary, an extra 6,000 vehicles, plus a financial loss, would barely make any difference at all to Mercedes.
That is why I wonder, what would be the benefit to the Mercedes-Benz Group?

Imho I don’t think Daimler MB would be that bothered about swallowing up the debt of AM. What are the exact numbers now? Last figure I saw was roughly £1 Bln, and if that’s settled quickly, the drain of interest payments will go away too. Looking at your numbers for MB Jon, the whole AM balance sheet is pretty irrelevant in comparison. So the answer to your question of possible benefit is not really financial, either good or bad for MB. Perhaps they may just want the kudos of “saving” AM, and having the marque in their stable, as some of the other Germans have done. It seems certain to me that going forward AM will end up sharing more parts, engines, drivetrains, infotainment tech, and EV tech with MB. To my mind that seed was sown years ago, and the appointment of Moers has cemented it. Once we get to 2025 and beyond, imho I think AM simply will not be able to survive alone. I just can’t see any other outcome, apart from going bust, and then disappearing in to the same ashes with so many fabled British manufacturers of the past. And surely no one on here wants that?

Time will tell I guess

Best Regards

Minglar

[Jon39]

Minglar said:

.... So the answer to your question of possible benefit is not really financial, either good or bad for MB. Perhaps they may just want the kudos of “saving” AM, and having the marque in their stable, ....

Time will tell I guess

Best Regards

Minglar

I think Richard, that might be considered a noble gesture, as there would be virtually no effect (positive or negative) on their own financials, even when having to cover the (traditional) continuing annual AML losses.

Pretty impressive numbers for Mercedes-Benz, which I have not studied, but 2021 was probably not a record for them, because we heard about production difficulties due to a shortage of some parts.