Engine failures
Discussion
We have been aware for some time, that AML stopped selling replacement engines.
Clearly this presents a serious problem, to any of us who are unfortunate enough to experience engine failure.
Have a beautiful car with a broken engine, but unable to buy another engine, so the car becomes just a pretty ornament.
Wonder how main dealers are coping with this situation ? Does anyone have knowledge of that ?
After an absence of a couple of months, Mike Beake is back in front of his camera again.
In this video, he describes his plan to build engines. I have not watched the entire video yet, but am wondering how he can obtain new engine blocks, if there aren't any available. Perhaps he explains.
AML were using a firm in Bridgnorth, for the V12 blocks, perhaps still are. Usually moulds and dyes used by subcontractors, remain the property of the car manufacturer, so that presumably must prohibit sales to others. An interesting conundrum and the car owners are 'caught in the middle'.
https://youtu.be/jcNrjCzn5Sk
Mike isn’t referring to the supply of blocks, just rebuilds. A failure would have to be extremely terminal to require new block, ie multiple catastrophic thrown rods etc, the AM engines (even with starved of oil) don’t seem to catastrophically fail.
The old Newport Pagnell I6’s (DB5 etc) and V8s are still running and being rebuilt and their blocks haven’t been produced for at least 30years. No NP V8 owner is worried about their engine not being rebuildable.
The VH blocks are the same alloy cast steel liner construction. It’s amazing what the specialists can do with welding gear.
The old Newport Pagnell I6’s (DB5 etc) and V8s are still running and being rebuilt and their blocks haven’t been produced for at least 30years. No NP V8 owner is worried about their engine not being rebuildable.
The VH blocks are the same alloy cast steel liner construction. It’s amazing what the specialists can do with welding gear.
Edited by Calinours on Sunday 29th January 18:44
Visit "astonowners.com". Richard Furse and his team have done the research on fitting new liners in the blocks.
This is not as straight forward as you would think and getting the job done properly has taken some time.
I think this is where Mike Beake is planning to get his refurbished engines from.
This is not as straight forward as you would think and getting the job done properly has taken some time.
I think this is where Mike Beake is planning to get his refurbished engines from.
Edited by F1NDW on Sunday 29th January 21:06
Calinours said:
Mike isn’t referring to the supply of blocks, just rebuilds. A failure would have to be extremely terminal to require new block, ie multiple catastrophic thrown rods etc, the AM engines (even with starved of oil) don’t seem to catastrophically fail.
The old Newport Pagnell I6’s (DB5 etc) and V8s are still running and being rebuilt and their blocks haven’t been produced for at least 30years. No NP V8 owner is worried about their engine not being rebuildable.
The VH blocks are the same alloy cast steel liner construction. It’s amazing what the specialists can do with welding gear.
Well maybe it's that simple sometimes but may I refer you to my particular failure: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...The old Newport Pagnell I6’s (DB5 etc) and V8s are still running and being rebuilt and their blocks haven’t been produced for at least 30years. No NP V8 owner is worried about their engine not being rebuildable.
The VH blocks are the same alloy cast steel liner construction. It’s amazing what the specialists can do with welding gear.
No rods thrown but a dropped valve head did this to a piston that cracked the liner in two lines through to the coolant jackets.
The liners are apparently cast into the block so it is not a simple case of pressing out one liner and pressing in a new one. One previous attempt at machining out a V8 liner and pressing in a new one apparently failed so for now this means that my block is not repairable and is soon to be a rather handsome coffee table.
Usable secondhand blocks are in very short supply and therefore sell at a considerable premium, if you can find one. Mike has sourced one for my rebuild; I know it's engine number but don't know it's history which is pretty irrelevant as long as it can be re-machined/honed to take a grade 3 factory piston.
The problem becomes even worse when the factory stop making pistons, rods and bearings before the aftermarket are geared-up to take over this production, something that I assume happened long ago with the NP V8s.
So not a good time to have an engine failure but there is light at the end of the tunnel .......... just.
V8V Pete said:
... Usable secondhand blocks are in very short supply and therefore sell at a considerable premium, if you can find one. Mike has sourced one for my rebuild; I know it's engine number but don't know it's history, which is pretty irrelevant as long as it can be re-machined/honed to take a grade 3 factory piston.
The problem becomes even worse when the factory stop making pistons, rods and bearings, before the aftermarket are geared-up to take over this production, something that I assume happened long ago with the NP V8s.
The problem becomes even worse when the factory stop making pistons, rods and bearings, before the aftermarket are geared-up to take over this production, something that I assume happened long ago with the NP V8s.
So disappointing for you that this has happened, Pete.
Under the present circumstances, with no engines available, good that Mike is able to help you. You deserve it as a loyal customer.
If nothing changes regarding supply, I wonder what will happen? Can you imagine what a main dealer would say, to owners of 2016 or 2017 cars, if they should have engine trouble? Surely not, "Sorry, we can't do anything".
Hope that you will not have to wait too long.
Regards,
David.
Dewi 2 said:
If nothing changes regarding supply, I wonder what will happen? Can you imagine what a main dealer would say, to owners of 2016 or 2017 cars, if they should have engine trouble? Surely not, "Sorry, we can't do anything".
There must be some other engine that would fit - but a main dealer wouldn't fit it.When I bought my 06 DB9, the V12 had suffered two spun rod bearings due to having been driven with only 6 quarts of oil.
The damage was impressive but the block came through ok. I had it bored one size over to clean it up. I had to have the crank straightened/ground by "Marine Crankshafts" in CA. Dave is well known in the racing community and does great work. Because the bearing slurry trashed the camshafts I had them hard chromed/ground and then had the camshaft journals line bored.
New valve train, new bearings, new rods/pistons/rings, new oil pump (that was the most expensive item...) and new oil cooler (the old one was full of slurry).
Very straight forward build which is detailed on the other popular AM website.
3000 miles later and it's still going strong. I know that's not a lot of miles but it was a lot of weekends and a lot of smiles!
I wouldn't hesitate to resurrect a V12 again - most of what's inside it can be sourced from Ford which makes it reasonably "affordable".
The damage was impressive but the block came through ok. I had it bored one size over to clean it up. I had to have the crank straightened/ground by "Marine Crankshafts" in CA. Dave is well known in the racing community and does great work. Because the bearing slurry trashed the camshafts I had them hard chromed/ground and then had the camshaft journals line bored.
New valve train, new bearings, new rods/pistons/rings, new oil pump (that was the most expensive item...) and new oil cooler (the old one was full of slurry).
Very straight forward build which is detailed on the other popular AM website.
3000 miles later and it's still going strong. I know that's not a lot of miles but it was a lot of weekends and a lot of smiles!
I wouldn't hesitate to resurrect a V12 again - most of what's inside it can be sourced from Ford which makes it reasonably "affordable".
Dewi 2 said:
If nothing changes regarding supply, I wonder what will happen? Can you imagine what a main dealer would say, to owners of 2016 or 2017 cars, if they should have engine trouble? Surely not, "Sorry, we can't do anything".
Aston actually stopped making the v8 in 2017. I have this on good authority from the factory.
It’s an interesting one for sure. As said, the old reman units aren’t actually reman either. Imagine being told you’re getting a new engine and then having it built with the exact same parts, or as in most cases, only few parts were replaced in the first place.
I wonder what uprated bearings are available in the aftermarket world ?
It’s an interesting one for sure. As said, the old reman units aren’t actually reman either. Imagine being told you’re getting a new engine and then having it built with the exact same parts, or as in most cases, only few parts were replaced in the first place.
I wonder what uprated bearings are available in the aftermarket world ?
Finding Neutral said:
Aston actually stopped making the v8 in 2017. I have this on good authority from the factory.
It’s an interesting one for sure. As said, the old reman units aren’t actually reman either. Imagine being told you’re getting a new engine and then having it built with the exact same parts, or as in most cases, only few parts were replaced in the first place.
I wonder what uprated bearings are available in the aftermarket world ?
Aston didn't fit 'new' engines as they are exchange rebuilt units and as you rightly say have many parts re-used, I know as I had two. I still see cars for sale saying 'brand new engine' fitted when they are not and it's a bit naughty to advertise them as such imho. It’s an interesting one for sure. As said, the old reman units aren’t actually reman either. Imagine being told you’re getting a new engine and then having it built with the exact same parts, or as in most cases, only few parts were replaced in the first place.
I wonder what uprated bearings are available in the aftermarket world ?
macdeb said:
Finding Neutral said:
Aston actually stopped making the v8 in 2017. I have this on good authority from the factory.
It’s an interesting one for sure. As said, the old reman units aren’t actually reman either. Imagine being told you’re getting a new engine and then having it built with the exact same parts, or as in most cases, only few parts were replaced in the first place.
I wonder what uprated bearings are available in the aftermarket world ?
Aston didn't fit 'new' engines as they are exchange rebuilt units and as you rightly say have many parts re-used, I know as I had two. I still see cars for sale saying 'brand new engine' fitted when they are not and it's a bit naughty to advertise them as such imho. It’s an interesting one for sure. As said, the old reman units aren’t actually reman either. Imagine being told you’re getting a new engine and then having it built with the exact same parts, or as in most cases, only few parts were replaced in the first place.
I wonder what uprated bearings are available in the aftermarket world ?
V8V Pete said:
Well maybe it's that simple sometimes but may I refer you to my particular failure: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
No rods thrown but a dropped valve head did this to a piston that cracked the liner in two lines through to the coolant jackets.
The liners are apparently cast into the block so it is not a simple case of pressing out one liner and pressing in a new one. One previous attempt at machining out a V8 liner and pressing in a new one apparently failed so for now this means that my block is not repairable and is soon to be a rather handsome coffee table.
Usable secondhand blocks are in very short supply and therefore sell at a considerable premium, if you can find one. Mike has sourced one for my rebuild; I know it's engine number but don't know it's history which is pretty irrelevant as long as it can be re-machined/honed to take a grade 3 factory piston.
The problem becomes even worse when the factory stop making pistons, rods and bearings before the aftermarket are geared-up to take over this production, something that I assume happened long ago with the NP V8s.
So not a good time to have an engine failure but there is light at the end of the tunnel .......... just.
Here’s hoping your car is back on the road soon Pete. Did you establish a clear root cause of the failure?No rods thrown but a dropped valve head did this to a piston that cracked the liner in two lines through to the coolant jackets.
The liners are apparently cast into the block so it is not a simple case of pressing out one liner and pressing in a new one. One previous attempt at machining out a V8 liner and pressing in a new one apparently failed so for now this means that my block is not repairable and is soon to be a rather handsome coffee table.
Usable secondhand blocks are in very short supply and therefore sell at a considerable premium, if you can find one. Mike has sourced one for my rebuild; I know it's engine number but don't know it's history which is pretty irrelevant as long as it can be re-machined/honed to take a grade 3 factory piston.
The problem becomes even worse when the factory stop making pistons, rods and bearings before the aftermarket are geared-up to take over this production, something that I assume happened long ago with the NP V8s.
So not a good time to have an engine failure but there is light at the end of the tunnel .......... just.
Calinours said:
Here’s hoping your car is back on the road soon Pete. Did you establish a clear root cause of the failure?
Nothing beyond the valve not being up to the job. Never buzzed the engine, never overheated, never run low on oil (not that that would cause a valve head to drop off anyway).V8V Pete said:
Nothing beyond the valve not being up to the job. Never buzzed the engine, never overheated, never run low on oil (not that that would cause a valve head to drop off anyway).
Pete, you may have mentioned this but are you running a standard RPM limit?I suspect this is just very unfortunate but curious to know.
Also just on the offchance, did the spark plug survive and if so was the tip still attached?
IainWhy said:
Pete, you may have mentioned this but are you running a standard RPM limit?
I suspect this is just very unfortunate but curious to know.
Also just on the offchance, did the spark plug survive and if so was the tip still attached?
Yes, standard RPM limit.I suspect this is just very unfortunate but curious to know.
Also just on the offchance, did the spark plug survive and if so was the tip still attached?
Never saw the spark plug but I imagine it was decapitated by the flying valve head.
V8V Pete said:
Yes, standard RPM limit.
Never saw the spark plug but I imagine it was decapitated by the flying valve head.
Right, so basically your down to:Never saw the spark plug but I imagine it was decapitated by the flying valve head.
A - really unfortunate valve failure
B - Some sort of foreign object
The only reason i mentioned the plug is that the early 3.0 S50 used a bosch plug, these were absolutely horrendous for dropping plug tips which would then batter the edge of the piston crown before eventually escaping via the exhaust valve. I used to (may still do) have a pile of pistons with various levels of impact damage. While thats generally survivable the tip can get caught between the valve and seat causing a bend in the stem which then results in a breakage.
Likely clutching at straws and largely irrelevant now but possibly a little more satisfying a cause than a stem failing.
If it has happened, you will generally see some small punch parks like someone has been jabbing a biro into the piston or some impressions of a small cylinder into the head or piston.
Edited by IainWhy on Tuesday 31st January 09:52
I'm sorry to hear of V8VPete's failure, but this seems to be a one off, not related to the design of engine as such. Is there any evidence of a pattern of failures of the V8? (crank, liners, bearings, pistons?). Unlike the V12, the V8 seems to be very reliable, with almost no reports of catastrophic failure.
john ryan said:
I'm sorry to hear of V8VPete's failure, but this seems to be a one off, not related to the design of engine as such. Is there any evidence of a pattern of failures of the V8? (crank, liners, bearings, pistons?). Unlike the V12, the V8 seems to be very reliable, with almost no reports of catastrophic failure.
fBottom end bearing failings seem to be the common factor. That said, the number is small in comparison to the number of units made, however, how many have covered big miles and are used hard?
Many vantages potter about and do minimal distance, as such its hard to really say really how much of an issue it is or otherwise. they are certainly not as chocolate as many other engines thats for sure, but comparing apples with apples is tricky on low volume, low use cars.
As much as i cant warm to the Mike he does suggest he expects more failures over time (yes, older cars more likely to wear, and in another shocker water is wet) but interestingly points to the 4.7 this makes some sense to my mind as i believe (please fact check) the bearing is the same, as such you have a good bit more load given the increased CR and stroke.
Its not something that will be keeping me awake at night, all engines have their weak points and paranoia over its chances of survival will ruin your enjoyment.
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