Very interesting discussion…

[Calinours]

I will probably get banned, blacklisted and booted out of PH for this, but I thought some of you may enjoy reading the often very well articulated thoughts of (mainly) our cousins across the pond on a rival forum who are AM guys, who here are discussing the current line up vs the VH era, and what they are hoping for from the upcoming updates….

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/aston-martin/4...

[SHIFTY]

That is why I paid more for an old style Vantage that is 6 years old than a new generation Vantage, but then again I am getting on a bit.

[Import]

Agree..it is an interesting one..have been following…

[Jon39]

Lawrence Stroll has asked me to pass on his comments.

All those people living in the past, keep going on about beauty and adequate horse power.
We don't need them any more. We have a billion views at every Formula One race and the configurator is going gangbusters.
Aston Martin has really turned a corner now and we are going all out EBITDA. Everything has gone so well, since I took over as Executive Chairman.

Our new high net worth customers want Ultra-Luxury (I think I might have mentioned that once before).
Wait until you see our replacement Sports and GT models. They will be like all-new cars (with a little carry-over at the rear) and the order book will immediately be full.
You will be pleased with the new price points, incorporating our new 40% target margin.

[Simpo Two]

'OK, assuming that someone at Aston Martin Corporate is smart enough to look at the blogs to actually see what Aston Martin owners (and future owners want)'

I don't think for a minute that he gives a tinker's cuss about what people say on forums and blogs. It seems that LS does what LS wants. I do feel though that the rush to the 'Yiannimize' sector will firm up prices for the previous era models, so I might make a couple of K from it.

[Cold]

I'm not sure that thread brings anything new to the table. Just another bunch of old men complaining about how things were better in the olden days.

It's like PH but with slightly different spelling.

[Veg]

I liked the discussion mainly as I'm getting older and hate the focus on millennials - we have the cash not them...in the majority.

Anyway with the move to EV the performance of cars becomes irrelevant as EV drive trains are easy to make very similar in terms of output / performance than ICE are. For instance a BMW V12 isn't anywhere near an Aston V12 in the way it gets power out and the noise it makes.

Now perfomance EV car's figures look the same, within a gnats doodah, so sales will be down to the way it drives and the way it looks which should have seen Aston clean up as that was always their USP ..until recently. Added to this is real world reliability.

I know this has become very apparent to Aston whereas BMW seem to still think their engineering history will cover bad design

[Calinours]

The comment that leapt out for me was this:

”Would a Ferrari be a Ferrari if it had an AMG engine? Of course not. The very thought of such a thing is utterly preposterous”

It made me think. Yes, it’s a very old fashioned view, but thinking of it, how many Ferrari buyers would think twice about buying a Ferrari if it didn’t have a Ferrari engine ?

Are AM owners/afficionados/potential buyers the same as Ferrari ones? Maybe to a degree. Neither car maker makes any sense in the real world, they are only bought as status symbols or toys for (primarily) boys.

Do McLaren buyers care that the engine is made by Ricardo? - It would seem not, but then there’s no tradition of McLaren building their own.

What about Lambo? Do smaller Lamborghini owners care that their engine is shared with other VAG products? I don’t believe so.

Rolls Royce ? BMW owned since the late 90s. All use BMW engines.

Bentley ? - see Lamborghini.

I guess those guys in USA, despite Tesla, with their ahem, ‘different’ politics perhaps don’t feel the existential big picture end-of-ICE EV threat as closely as we in Europe do, and still have the ‘luxury’ of having what are becoming ever more pointless debates.

Now back to Jon and his ‘can Aston survive (at all!) in the EV era’ thread….

[AdamV12V]

Veg said:

I liked the discussion mainly as I'm getting older and hate the focus on millennials - we have the cash not them...in the majority.

I think increasingly these days it's not about having the cash, its about being prepared to take on debt to get something today that you could not otherwise afford. Selling a PCP means the dealership gets a commission on it and of course when the PCP term is up they are bound to come backto refresh their debt / car hire combo, as they don't have the means, nor often any intent to pay off the bubble.

In this respect millennials are likely to have a way higher spending power, as more conditioned into thinking this is "normal" and a good thing to do.

PCP has been a miracle for the auto trade and manufacturers, but its a scourge for consumers. No longer do people save up to buy their dream car - no, no, now you can simply rent just half of it, never own it and don't even worry about the other half, just come back later, take on a new debt and rent a new half of a newer car and start the loop all over again. Cars are getting more and more disposable with the introduction of more and more tech which goes out of date quicky, but that doesn't matter because a) its what the buyer "wants" and b) the buyer wont be keeping the car long enough to worry about it not working anymore anyway.

/rant over

Anyway lets hope AML realise what they had that was the USP of the brand and get back to it, but the current focus of LS still seems to be pushing further away from that and into the mainstream thinking, in which sadly I think AML will struggle to complete, not least because of the huge debt they are endlessly servicing.

[M1AGM]

Cold said:

I'm not sure that thread brings anything new to the table. Just another bunch of old men complaining about how things were better in the olden days.

It's like PH but with slightly different spelling.

+1

[Minglar]

Calinours said:

The comment that leapt out for me was this:

”Would a Ferrari be a Ferrari if it had an AMG engine? Of course not. The very thought of such a thing is utterly preposterous”

It made me think. Yes, it’s a very old fashioned view, but thinking of it, how many Ferrari buyers would think twice about buying a Ferrari if it didn’t have a Ferrari engine ?

Are AM owners/afficionados/potential buyers the same as Ferrari ones? Maybe to a degree. Neither car maker makes any sense in the real world, they are only bought as status symbols or toys for (primarily) boys.

Do McLaren buyers care that the engine is made by Ricardo? - It would seem not, but then there’s no tradition of McLaren building their own.

What about Lambo? Do smaller Lamborghini owners care that their engine is shared with other VAG products? I don’t believe so.

Rolls Royce ? BMW owned since the late 90s. All use BMW engines.

Bentley ? - see Lamborghini.

I guess those guys in USA, despite Tesla, with their ahem, ‘different’ politics perhaps don’t feel the existential big picture end-of-ICE EV threat as closely as we in Europe do, and still have the ‘luxury’ of having what are becoming ever more pointless debates.

Now back to Jon and his ‘can Aston survive (at all!) in the EV era’ thread….

The poster who you cite used to come on here too, and nearly every other platform/forum he could find, and literally every post was almost the same. Moers is ex AMG and he’s going to destroy AML. AMG engines don’t belong in an Aston Martin. I could go on, but if you can be bothered to look back it’s all there. Funnily enough, since Moers has left I don’t recall seeing too much forum activity from said poster. He uses the same handle here as elsewhere. The links with MB engines and other components were made many years ago, a legacy of the AP era and the latter part of the Bez one. It’s a difficult chain to break and whilst many on here sympathise(d) with the angst posted, it eventually became rather tiresome. Personally I think the AMG V8 is a stonking engine, and I said exactly that when I test drove an early new Vantage in mid 2018. It was one of the areas which I thought warranted no criticism, performance wise at least. Would it be a deal breaker for me? Probably not, but it doesn’t in anyway compare to the visual drama afforded me when I lift the bonnet of my V12V. I also cannot stand the pops, farting, blurbing, and general nasty noises it makes on the overrun. As Adam said, so much of this is what the YouTubers love, and it’s clear to me that LS still sees these type of people as the new client base. It will be interesting to see what AML do with “DB12” as I would assume this car will form the template for the rest of the range, as DB11 and DB9 did in the previous generations. It’s needs to be a big hit straight off the bat, rather than being compromised and requiring fettling into the finished product a few years later. Let’s hope they have learnt their lessons from the past. Fingers crossed.

Best Regards

Minglar

[DB9VolanteDriver]

An AMG engine does not belong in an Aston anymore than it does in a Ferrari.

[Speedraser]

Minglar, I'm still here. Looks like all of this is still being discussed. I stand by everything I said.

Edited by Speedraser on Friday 7th April 16:18

[Minglar]

Speedraser said:

Minglar, I'm still here. Looks like all of this is still being discussed. I stand by everything I said.

Edited by Speedraser on Friday 7th April 16:18

Well that’s good to know. I’m somewhat curious to know why all of your AM related posts over the last year or so (since Moers was sacked) have been in the GG forum rather than in here? Actually, please don’t answer that as it will be too much of a thread diversion, and I think I know where it will end up heading!


Best Regards

Minglar

[Speedraser]

Minglar said:

Speedraser said:

Minglar, I'm still here. Looks like all of this is still being discussed. I stand by everything I said.

Edited by Speedraser on Friday 7th April 16:18

Well that’s good to know. I’m somewhat curious to know why all of your AM related posts over the last year or so (since Moers was sacked) have been in the GG forum rather than in here? Actually, please don’t answer that as it will be too much of a thread diversion, and I think I know where it will end up heading!


Best Regards

Minglar

Honestly, it's a boring answer -- simple lack of time. For better or for worse

[Jon39]

Speedraser said:

Minglar, I'm still here. Looks like all of this is still being discussed. I stand by everything I said.

Two men have a conversation.

Fred - "I have some spare time today. As a special treat, would you like to drive my sports car."

Bob - "Well that is very kind of you and I know how meticulously your car has been built, but it does not have a proper engine, so I would much rather go home on the bus."

Fred - "Don't get on the bus, until you have checked that it has an engine that you approve of."



|https://thumbsnap.com/BgZMrySw[/url]


[url]

[Speedraser]

Jon, you're not trying to start something, are you

[Ninja59]

AdamV12V said:

I think increasingly these days it's not about having the cash, its about being prepared to take on debt to get something today that you could not otherwise afford. Selling a PCP means the dealership gets a commission on it and of course when the PCP term is up they are bound to come backto refresh their debt / car hire combo, as they don't have the means, nor often any intent to pay off the bubble.

In this respect millennials are likely to have a way higher spending power, as more conditioned into thinking this is "normal" and a good thing to do.

PCP has been a miracle for the auto trade and manufacturers, but its a scourge for consumers. No longer do people save up to buy their dream car - no, no, now you can simply rent just half of it, never own it and don't even worry about the other half, just come back later, take on a new debt and rent a new half of a newer car and start the loop all over again. Cars are getting more and more disposable with the introduction of more and more tech which goes out of date quicky, but that doesn't matter because a) its what the buyer "wants" and b) the buyer wont be keeping the car long enough to worry about it not working anymore anyway.

/rant over

Anyway lets hope AML realise what they had that was the USP of the brand and get back to it, but the current focus of LS still seems to be pushing further away from that and into the mainstream thinking, in which sadly I think AML will struggle to complete, not least because of the huge debt they are endlessly servicing.

Why cash buy a depreciating asset though? I know some might not like that bit, but it is true most of the normal AML range like it or not during early life will depreciate. More so if you actually bloody drive the thing more than the average amount (mine is a daily driver).

Shift the risk on to someone else, whether or not the balloon gets paid is partially down to how things pan out, but I do a agree a number don't have the balloon to hand (I sort of do and don't for mine, and yes by definition it is in this camp).

And I know some keep banging on about noise, the reality is noise regs are so strict now I doubt you could legally get the VH vantage in v8 or v12 form through current, more so, drive by regulations.

Particulate filters have an even greater impact on overall noise as well.

Blaming engine supplier is an easy get out for some on here rather than looking at the legal landscape manufacturers are operating in that has pushed them to use some of exhaust nosies we have and also piped in cabin noise or even speakers used. It might send some over the edge knowing ALL 2nd century cars also have sound regulators and piped noise...

Edited by Ninja59 on Friday 7th April 19:04

[Jon39]

Speedraser said:

Jon, you're not trying to start something, are you

Some humour does help us through life.
Nothing personal and it did have a little subtly, for anyone not knowing much about the car featured.

I understand your opinion, but of course AML don't have any choice. The numbers involved recently in the AML annual losses are now bigger than ever.
The V12 still continues as unique usage by AM, although not bullt by AM.
The Valkyrie engine was commissioned/paid for by AM, but as you know is a Cosworth engine.

I suppose the last AM designed and built engine must be a Newport Pagnell engine, so a long time ago.
I don't know much detail about the cars of that perod. Think the AM engines were Inline 6, followed by V8.

Wonder how many minor (volume) car manufacturers still use their own IC engines?
I think Koenigsegg is one and Ferrari, but after that I don't know.
Most that I can think of, buy in their engines.

[Speedraser]

Ninja59 said:

Blaming engine supplier is an easy get out for some on here rather than looking at the legal landscape manufacturers are operating in that has pushed them to use some of exhaust nosies we have and also piped in cabin noise or even speakers used. It might send some over the edge knowing ALL 2nd century cars also have sound regulators and piped noise...

Edited by Ninja59 on Friday 7th April 19:04

Engine supplier and fake engine noise are separate issues. Unsurprisingly, fake engine noise is IMO reprehensible. It is a cheap and lazy response to regs that, while making things more difficult, don't require fakery.