I am the only one interested in a modern AM Nat Asp Car?

[MartyAM]

I haven't posted here much, but I have watched these forums for 15+ years.

I have been in the lucky position of "buying" (on finance) 12 Aston Martins. And driving them daily. And loving them. From memory. 3 DBS, 1 Virage, rest Vantages.

So, my question is, why why does AML get bashed and cannot some how survive?

I wish they could.
RB


ps. the whole point of my post is that why not stay with NA engines? I do not want turbo.

Edited by MartyAM on Thursday 4th December 18:22

[Simpo Two]

Perhaps because the more bhp a car has the more people (in this sector) are likely to buy it. Turbo is a cheap way to do it and most people think saying 'turbo' is cool.

How about a supercharger? That's more traditional.

[camel_landy]

Nope... You're not the only one who wants NA.

M

[Dewi 2]

MartyAM said:

I haven't posted here much, but I have watched these forums for 15+ years.

I have been in the lucky position of "buying" (on finance) 12 Aston Martins. And driving them daily. And loving them. From memory. 3 DBS, 1 Virage, rest Vantages.

So, my question is, why why does AML get bashed and cannot somehow survive?

I wish they could.
RB

ps. the whole point of my post is that why not stay with NA engines? I do not want turbo.

Gosh, 12 !
You must be entitled to attend the Gaydon Christmas party.

Like you, I too enjoy NA engines.

I was first attracted to the VH Vantage by its gorgeous good looks.
Eventually I bought a young 4.7 and as it has always been marked as a keeper, I will never need a turbo Aston Martin.
Legislation and progress in many respects (auto boxes; turbos; extra cats; particulate filtes; electric handbrakes, technology and more recently, continual binging and bonging warnings) has made my car, an end of a delightful era vehicle.

I think turbos have almost now become the norm, because of the pressure on car manufacturers to improve fuel consumption.
Reducing the capacity of engines has been the common change, obviously meaning less power, but better fuel consumption.
To recover the lost power, a turbocharger is the ideal solution, so improved efficiency is then achieved.

As an example,
Year 2000 Mercedes car with a 3.2 litre V6 NA engine:- .................... 0 - 60 mph 7 secs; top 150 mph; fuel consumption 28 mpg.
Year 2022 Mercedes car with a 2 litre 4 cylinder turbo engine:- ....... 0 - 60 mph 7 secs; top 150 mph; fuel consumption 45 mpg.

The Company has, with quite a few 'stumbles', now been in business for 112 years.
They have mastered the art of survival, so I don't think you need to worry.

Edited by Dewi 2 on Thursday 4th December 20:13

[Minglar]

Imho it all started to go awry when the company went public in 2018. As was pointed out by many at the time, such a move opened up unprecedented public scrutiny of the financials, much of which had previously been an unknown due to private ownership and Fords involvement. Of course the world has changed dramatically in the last seven years since the IPO, with unpredictable events that have caused significant problems for a relatively small niche manufacturer such as AML. Much of this has been discussed in greater detail in the “AML - Stock Market Listing” thread on here which was started by Jon on 18th January 2018. Probably worth a read OP, if you haven’t already checked it out. As for the engines, how many sports car manufacturers make cars with NA engines now? Relatively few would be my guess. In retrospect, specifically with AML, perhaps we can apportion some of the blame for that towards Ulrich Bez and Andy Palmer due to their agreement with MB AMG, but regulations have also had a helping hand in that move. DB11 and new Vantage set the tone for where we are now, although personally I think the current range is splendid, possibly the best ever. But the market place is vastly different now and what sold well fifteen or twenty years ago is not viable or even possible anymore. Dewi 2 has nailed it.



BRM.

[Jon39]

You wrote a very good post Richard (Mingler), but when I came back here after looking up info, your post was missing.

Hope that you won't mind me adding to your subject.
The AML /Mercedes-Benz agreement was first announced before the AP era.
Dr. Bez was at the helm, July 2013. That was an engine agreement, then later on it was broadened to include electrical technology.

Was it 2018 when we first saw an AMG engine in an Aston Martin?
Quite a long time after the deal was agreed.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/1307-aston-martin-...


PS. I must be going crackers. Your post is here now.

[Minglar]

Jon39 said:

You wrote a very good post Richard (Mingler), but when I came back here after looking up info, your post was missing.

Hope that you won't mind me adding to your subject.
The AML /Mercedes-Benz agreement was first announced before the AP era.
Dr. Bez was at the helm, July 2013. That was an engine agreement, then later on it was broadened to include electrical technology.

Was it 2018 when we first saw an AMG engine in an Aston Martin?
Quite a long time after the deal was agreed.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/1307-aston-martin-...


PS. I must be going crackers. Your post is here now.

Sorry Jon. I was editing it and messing about with it and in the end I decided to delete it and rewrite it, so the first one or two versions have evaporated in to cyberspace. I think the first AMG engined AM may have been DB11. The launch edition was powered by an AM V12 TT, but I think the AMG unit became an option shortly before new Vantage was revealed in late 2017. I test drove new Vantage in August 2018, and posted a long review at the time. I thought the engine was rather good, although all the burps and farting noises it made did not appeal to me at all. Nowadays that seems to be exactly what most people want. It all seems a very long time ago doesn’t it?! BRM.

[bogie]

I prefer the NA engines too, and analogue dash

Its industry "progress", as the cars get larger to accommodate safety and other requirements, engines get smaller with forced induction to meet emissions regulations.

Guess I will be sticking with my 9 yr old Vantage a little longer

[alscar]

One of the reasons I'm keeping my GT8 which I guess then gets handed down to my eldest eventually.
I also have one of the last to be made Audi R8's in V10 form -again no turbo.
Man maths suggested that I should I also buy a new Dark Horse Mustang to use as a daily - V8 na and the depreciation on a new Vantage means this one was "free".
In fairness my wife has an RS4 -V6 and twin turbo's and if I ever just had to have one car this would be it.

[Anbuis]

Me too. Just NA engines and, ... no screens with dummy symbols, beep beep, blinky blinky and all that stuff. And tons of options in any possibilites, pushing here and there... and never get back to normal... a horror. I will keep my 2 Astons as long as possible to avoid this nonsens, which is further on pretty dangerous while driving and searching on screens instead enjoying the ride and watching the real traffic.

[Dewi 2]

Anbuis said:

Me too. Just NA engines and, ... no screens with dummy symbols, beep beep, blinky blinky and all that stuff. And tons of options in any possibilites, pushing here and there... and never get back to normal... a horror. I will keep my 2 Astons as long as possible to avoid this nonsense, which is further on pretty dangerous while driving and searching on screens instead enjoying the ride and watching the real traffic.

Before ever driving a car with a screen (not counting the old Volvo AM satnav), I had exactly the same opinion as you, especially about distraction dangers.

After replacing our daily driver, I became a screen first timer, so it did take a few months to become completely tech proficient.
I have now changed my opinion completely.
There is less distraction than when in my VH AM, trying to select those tiny metal strip buttons.

With my eyes continuing to remain on the road ahead, I simply give verbal instructions, eg. "I am cold"; "Play Radio 4"; "Turn on seat heating"; "Set temperature for the rear passengers to 22".

What could be safer, or easier?

Cars before summer 2024 might be the best to buy, because I understand more driver assist systems then became compulsory.

[nickv12]

Sadly, we re a blip in the modern auto landscape.

I am happy to make do with 595bhp in mine. The long throttle travel and completely linear nature of an n/a engine is more than s ever needed on the road.

But there s another critical factor, or two, why I ll never likely move upward from the VH platform: compact size and modest electronics.

I drive out today in less than ideal weather. The VH Vantage feels compact on country lanes, which inspires confidence.

CarPlay, a good stereo and clear instruments are all I need.

But I concede the world has moved on. We re dinosaurs. So long as there are good, used examples to buy, it ll be fine.

Naturally, none of this helps the mothership

[TheBigHunt]

Simple and pragmatic (and subjective) answers:

- regulations... Remember the Signet was only 'badged' AM to lower the CO2 capital of AM
- and now the main reason, because people enjoying NA engines are older and older... And the new gen doesn't care about it. They want HP and modern cars.

That's why from my perspective.
My kids can be a bit sensitive by NA engines because I try to explain them the beauty of the mechanics, they get it but... They tell me about the Tesla with more than 1000hp and big screen on which they can play game...

[Jon39]

TheBigHunt said:

Simple and pragmatic (and subjective) answers:

- regulations... Remember the Signet was only 'badged' AM to lower the CO2 capital of AM
- and now the main reason, because people enjoying NA engines are older and older... And the new gen doesn't care about it. They want HP and modern cars.

That's why from my perspective.
My kids can be a bit sensitive by NA engines because I try to explain them the beauty of the mechanics, they get it but... They tell me about the Tesla with more than 1000hp and big screen on which they can play game.

I was never certain that the Cygnet was connected to AML's total CO2.
We're any regulations actually imposed?
AML have continued with big capacity engines and without Cygnets being built.

Take your family to the Goodwood Revival. You will have a fantastic day and your children might be totally confused, but appreciate how 1960s motoring sport was fun. Remember to wear 1940s, 1950s or 1960s clothes.
If you have not been, it is an event on the, 'we should all attend at least once in lifetime' list.

[EVR]

Jon39 said:

I was never certain that the Cygnet was connected to AML's total CO2.
We're any regulations actually imposed?
AML have continued with big capacity engines and without Cygnets being built.

Take your family to the Goodwood Revival. You will have a fantastic day and your children might be totally confused, but appreciate how 1960s motoring sport was fun. Remember to wear 1940s, 1950s or 1960s clothes.
If you have not been, it is an event on the, 'we should all attend at least once in lifetime' list.

Then what is your take on why has the Cygnet been made? Genuine question!

[Jon39]

EVR said:

Jon39 said:

I was never certain that the Cygnet was connected to AML's total CO2.
We're any regulations actually imposed?
AML have continued with big capacity engines and without Cygnets being built.

Take your family to the Goodwood Revival. You will have a fantastic day and your children might be totally confused, but appreciate how 1960s motoring sport was fun. Remember to wear 1940s, 1950s or 1960s clothes.
If you have not been, it is an event on the, 'we should all attend at least once in lifetime' list.

Then what is your take on why has the Cygnet been made? Genuine question!

Now you are making me think.

1. Possibly the Cygnet project was originally implemented, in anticipation of AML being affected by future emissions legislation. We now know though, that so far production of AML's IC sports cars and SUVs has not been hindered by legislation.

2. Perhaps the plan could have been a way of introducing an additional core model to the range. A premium brand, small luxury car, which would be ideally suited for congested cities. Certainly a niche market, but maybe if you just wanted to pop round to Harrods and did not want to take your Ferrari or Bentley out, then an Aston Martin Cygnet might be perfect. Of course, it would have to be shopping for reasonably sized articles, perhaps some expensive jewellery. You could still get a positive reaction when saying, "Shall we go in the Aston Martin darling"? -

Although at the time production began, some considered the Cygnet to be a Toyota at three times the price, they have held their value very well. It might have been one of the lowest depreciating new Aston Martins.

I can only think of those two reasons.

[alscar]

Jon39 said:

Now you are making me think.

1. Possibly the Cygnet project was originally implemented, in anticipation of AML being affected by future emissions legislation. We now know though, that so far production of AML's IC sports cars and SUVs has not been hindered by legislation.

2. Perhaps the plan could have been a way of introducing an additional core model to the range. A premium brand, small luxury car, which would be ideally suited for congested cities. Certainly a niche market, but maybe if you just wanted to pop round to Harrods and did not want to take your Ferrari or Bentley out, then an Aston Martin Cygnet might be perfect. Of course, it would have to be shopping for reasonably sized articles, perhaps some expensive jewellery. You could still get a positive reaction when saying, "Shall we go in the Aston Martin darling"? -

Although at the time production began, some considered the Cygnet to be a Toyota at three times the price, they have held their value very well. It might have been one of the lowest depreciating new Aston Martins.

I can only think of those two reasons.

I think it was a combination of emissions ( real and potential ) and compact city size as you say but also the potential introduction of new customers to AM at a much smaller price point.

[EVR]

Thanks both, make sense. Yes, they are indeed a small collectors' item now!

[Minglar]

EVR said:

Thanks both, make sense. Yes, they are indeed a small collectors' item now!

It’s quite ironic really. It’s probably one of the most depreciation proof cars that AML has produced for ages. A very limited run, a relatively cheap initial purchase price, and due to their scarcity they don’t come up for sale very often. Currently, there is only one U.K. car for sale on AT and it will set you back £39,975

BRM.

[NickXX]

TheBigHunt said:

Simple and pragmatic (and subjective) answers:

- regulations... Remember the Signet was only 'badged' AM to lower the CO2 capital of AM
- and now the main reason, because people enjoying NA engines are older and older... And the new gen doesn't care about it. They want HP and modern cars.

That's why from my perspective.
My kids can be a bit sensitive by NA engines because I try to explain them the beauty of the mechanics, they get it but... They tell me about the Tesla with more than 1000hp and big screen on which they can play game...

This is not correct on the CO2 point, the Cygnet was never used to reduce Aston Martin's average as it didn't matter. AM qualified for the small volume manufacturer exemption (10,000 or fewer cars a year). They were well below this in 2011 when the Cygnet launched (and still are).

The reason it was built was because the margin was huge on each unit of them - as much as AM made on a DB9 unit. Had it been more popular it would have been a brilliant cash cow. Sadly rather than the 4,000 units a year forecast, they sold fewer than 1,000... over four years.

Edited by NickXX on Monday 8th December 18:21