Test drive of a Civic Type R EP3: Mixed feelings...
Discussion
Hey guys,
I had a test drive of a Civic Type R EP3 today, the second EP3 I've driven. The first time I drove one, I was coming straight from my Fiesta 1.3L with a mighty 60bhp, and anything even remotely fast felt like another world compared to what I was used to.
In the end, I went for the fastest of the cars I tested, a Seat Leon Cupra R 225. I felt it was the right car for a number of reasons, in that the was not only fast, but felt very weighty and solid, and had a great "bunker effect" cockpit with it's blacking interior and close, hugging style of driving position.
I have been thinking about swapping it though, to experience the other side of hot hatch thrills, the naturally aspirated kind. I've had a look at RS Clios (driven them before) and while they are nippy little things, the dull interior puts me off. As I don't get to hoon it every time I drive, I at least want to be sitting somewhere that puts a smile on my face if I'm stuck in traffic. So, I got back to thinking about which cars I liked the most, and I thought if I was going to lose the Cupra R, it would have to be for a Civic Type R. So I arranged a test drive in one today, and went out to see how much my time in the Cupra would change my perceptions of the car that came second last time I tried the bunch out.
First impressions getting in, the doors are very long for a start, and the driving position even in it's lowest setting still felt a bit too high. That said, my Cupra is on coilover suspension and as such sits pretty close to the ground. The gear stick position felt pretty alien to me but in reality was something I could very quickly get used to. The dials and everything looked nice, the Type R seats were nice and aesthetically fantastic, but not as "armchair comfortable" as the ones in the Cupra. I must have looked a right tit pulling away, as the clutch is much lighter and shorter of travel than the big VAG one I'm used to, and the throttle was incredibly sensitive. After jerking it down the road I started to settle into a rhythm a bit better. The engine is an absolute gem; it is so, so free to rev and the raspy jap note from the exhaust just encouraged crusing up to traffic lights and keeping the revs high to hear the frankly glorious noise.
Getting out onto some open roads the pace disappointed me a little; I knew it was not going to feel, or be anywhere near as quick as I was used to. The Cupra R is very "See gap, floor it, boost comes in, time to grab the next gear" and makes fast progress laughably easy. Still, even keeping the engine in the VTEC zone and shifting up at the redline didn't turn the car in the magical rocketship that can keep up with the turbo bunch that some drivers think it is. However, it was a totally different experience to what I am used to and felt brilliant. Driving in traffic was a bit of a chore, the car just could not slot through the gaps like I would normally do, but on a late night drive with empty roads I could see it being a blast. Slower, but perhaps ultimately more rewarding than a turbo car, just maybe. The feel and the sound of the engine were crazy, like a motorbike and so eager, just daring you to take it to the redline again and again.
One thing that did surprise me though was the brakes. I am used to 4 huge Brembos in the Seat, which offer massive stopping power and a quite progressive travel. The brakes in the CTR (Honda I assume?) were less than amazing. The travel of the pedal was very short and seemed to have a hell of a lot of resistance. The stopping power was not amazing either, I found even a decent step on the pedal would leave me having to brake much earlier than I would have otherwise expected.
For the handling, I could not say a great deal other than the steering was very light, especially notable at slow speeds where the car felt near-weightless and the turn in was very sharp, it feels like the car has quite a tight turning circle. Both qualities again, are opposites of the Cupra R, which has quite weighty steering at low speeds and a turning circle that could rival a saloon car!
So, I'm left to reflect on the experience now. I don't think the car has the quality design inside that the Seat does, not does it look quite so menacing and aggressive. However, for the brilliance of that engine and the purity of the distilled hooligan experience I think I could be tempted. However, I need to know, are the brakes supposed to be like that? I had not expected such a stiff feel, or such a lack of stopping power in a performance car. Perhaps I have been spoiled by the Brembos, who are admittedly among the class leaders in braking for road cars and bikes?
Also, the exhaust on the one I drove today was incredibly fruity, it had a very tuned, toneful sound to it, but the tips looked standard. Likely to be an aftermarket back-box with standard tips, or do they all sound so loud and tuneful?
I had a test drive of a Civic Type R EP3 today, the second EP3 I've driven. The first time I drove one, I was coming straight from my Fiesta 1.3L with a mighty 60bhp, and anything even remotely fast felt like another world compared to what I was used to.
In the end, I went for the fastest of the cars I tested, a Seat Leon Cupra R 225. I felt it was the right car for a number of reasons, in that the was not only fast, but felt very weighty and solid, and had a great "bunker effect" cockpit with it's blacking interior and close, hugging style of driving position.
I have been thinking about swapping it though, to experience the other side of hot hatch thrills, the naturally aspirated kind. I've had a look at RS Clios (driven them before) and while they are nippy little things, the dull interior puts me off. As I don't get to hoon it every time I drive, I at least want to be sitting somewhere that puts a smile on my face if I'm stuck in traffic. So, I got back to thinking about which cars I liked the most, and I thought if I was going to lose the Cupra R, it would have to be for a Civic Type R. So I arranged a test drive in one today, and went out to see how much my time in the Cupra would change my perceptions of the car that came second last time I tried the bunch out.
First impressions getting in, the doors are very long for a start, and the driving position even in it's lowest setting still felt a bit too high. That said, my Cupra is on coilover suspension and as such sits pretty close to the ground. The gear stick position felt pretty alien to me but in reality was something I could very quickly get used to. The dials and everything looked nice, the Type R seats were nice and aesthetically fantastic, but not as "armchair comfortable" as the ones in the Cupra. I must have looked a right tit pulling away, as the clutch is much lighter and shorter of travel than the big VAG one I'm used to, and the throttle was incredibly sensitive. After jerking it down the road I started to settle into a rhythm a bit better. The engine is an absolute gem; it is so, so free to rev and the raspy jap note from the exhaust just encouraged crusing up to traffic lights and keeping the revs high to hear the frankly glorious noise.
Getting out onto some open roads the pace disappointed me a little; I knew it was not going to feel, or be anywhere near as quick as I was used to. The Cupra R is very "See gap, floor it, boost comes in, time to grab the next gear" and makes fast progress laughably easy. Still, even keeping the engine in the VTEC zone and shifting up at the redline didn't turn the car in the magical rocketship that can keep up with the turbo bunch that some drivers think it is. However, it was a totally different experience to what I am used to and felt brilliant. Driving in traffic was a bit of a chore, the car just could not slot through the gaps like I would normally do, but on a late night drive with empty roads I could see it being a blast. Slower, but perhaps ultimately more rewarding than a turbo car, just maybe. The feel and the sound of the engine were crazy, like a motorbike and so eager, just daring you to take it to the redline again and again.
One thing that did surprise me though was the brakes. I am used to 4 huge Brembos in the Seat, which offer massive stopping power and a quite progressive travel. The brakes in the CTR (Honda I assume?) were less than amazing. The travel of the pedal was very short and seemed to have a hell of a lot of resistance. The stopping power was not amazing either, I found even a decent step on the pedal would leave me having to brake much earlier than I would have otherwise expected.
For the handling, I could not say a great deal other than the steering was very light, especially notable at slow speeds where the car felt near-weightless and the turn in was very sharp, it feels like the car has quite a tight turning circle. Both qualities again, are opposites of the Cupra R, which has quite weighty steering at low speeds and a turning circle that could rival a saloon car!
So, I'm left to reflect on the experience now. I don't think the car has the quality design inside that the Seat does, not does it look quite so menacing and aggressive. However, for the brilliance of that engine and the purity of the distilled hooligan experience I think I could be tempted. However, I need to know, are the brakes supposed to be like that? I had not expected such a stiff feel, or such a lack of stopping power in a performance car. Perhaps I have been spoiled by the Brembos, who are admittedly among the class leaders in braking for road cars and bikes?
Also, the exhaust on the one I drove today was incredibly fruity, it had a very tuned, toneful sound to it, but the tips looked standard. Likely to be an aftermarket back-box with standard tips, or do they all sound so loud and tuneful?
Yeah I can see how the RX8 is a sort of continuation of what the CTR does, with the high revving NA engine that the rest of the driving experience is centred around. Unfortunately things like horrendous fuel consumption and the possibility of some serious mechanical problems (damaged rotor teeth by 40,000 miles on some cars!) are what put me off. As much as I love the concept, and I'll bet they are thrilling to drive too, to run one would simply cost more than I am willing to spend on a car at the moment!
Interesting write up there.
Couple of observations here. The exhaust you mention, if it is that fruity there might have been some aftermarket work, not sure though as I'd expect non standard back pipe(s). We have had two EP3s now and neither sounds anything remarkable.
I always found the brakes very nice, stopping quite well, but then alot of that will have to do with the rubber you have. Between my Brembo kitted evo and the Civic, I prefer the feel of the Civics brakes! Stops just fine as I once had to find out on a gritty narrow back country road (BIG tractor owning the whole lot).
I like the handling, reasonable and sprightly I would say.
Would we have another one when the current one goes? Nope. To be fair I really liked the Vtec when I first experienced it, but these days I'm getting tired of having to cane the life out of the engine just to get a bit more oompf.
The Civic is her motor really and she's now talking about 350Z/R32 territory. We've had our fun, time to move on....
Couple of observations here. The exhaust you mention, if it is that fruity there might have been some aftermarket work, not sure though as I'd expect non standard back pipe(s). We have had two EP3s now and neither sounds anything remarkable.
I always found the brakes very nice, stopping quite well, but then alot of that will have to do with the rubber you have. Between my Brembo kitted evo and the Civic, I prefer the feel of the Civics brakes! Stops just fine as I once had to find out on a gritty narrow back country road (BIG tractor owning the whole lot).
I like the handling, reasonable and sprightly I would say.
Would we have another one when the current one goes? Nope. To be fair I really liked the Vtec when I first experienced it, but these days I'm getting tired of having to cane the life out of the engine just to get a bit more oompf.
The Civic is her motor really and she's now talking about 350Z/R32 territory. We've had our fun, time to move on....
Chuck328 said:
Couple of observations here. The exhaust you mention, if it is that fruity there might have been some aftermarket work, not sure though as I'd expect non standard back pipe(s). We have had two EP3s now and neither sounds anything remarkable.
That was my expectation too, I've seen a lot of CTRs with obvious aftermarket back boxes, but this one looked standard yet was loud and had a great rasp to it. I was caning it around with the window down the whole time just to hear it! As EP3 CTRs are so ubiquitous, I'm used to seeing them getting hooned about, yet I've never heard one on a known standard exhaust that sounded quite as lively as this one. I'm a total exhaust junkie, to me, the noise a car makes is one of the most important things about it. If I did buy a CTR I'd probably still want a really high quality aftermarket exhaust on it, and given that it's Japanese I'd imagine that there would be a lot of options available from the usual suspects such as Buddy Club, Fujitsubo, Apexi etc, and probably some cool but hard to source options from less known companies like Ganador.
Maybe they have de-resonated the exhaust (a common thing to do with Scoobys)... I love a decent exhaust sound too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoxxAi74Pi8 - any excuse to post this
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoxxAi74Pi8 - any excuse to post this
.The CTR will not feel as quick as the Cupra R as it has much less torque and its the torque you feel. Even in its vtec zone once the initial kick is over the delivery is very linear so still no fireworks. Still I've seen a well driven type R out do more powerful turbo hot hatches like scoobies, Focus STs and the like. The lower weight and linear power delivery is the key to it. The higher torque and the nature of the way it comes in on the turbo hatches combined with FWD often breaks traction and slows you down.
stargazer30 said:
The CTR will not feel as quick as the Cupra R as it has much less torque and its the torque you feel. Even in its vtec zone once the initial kick is over the delivery is very linear so still no fireworks. Still I've seen a well driven type R out do more powerful turbo hot hatches like scoobies, Focus STs and the like. The lower weight and linear power delivery is the key to it. The higher torque and the nature of the way it comes in on the turbo hatches combined with FWD often breaks traction and slows you down.
EFA
stargazer30 said:
The CTR will not feel as quick as the Cupra R as it has much less torque and its the torque you feel. Even in its vtec zone once the initial kick is over the delivery is very linear so still no fireworks. Still I've seen a well driven type R out do more powerful turbo hot hatches like scoobies, Focus STs and the like. The lower weight and linear power delivery is the key to it. The higher torque and the nature of the way it comes in on the turbo hatches combined with FWD often breaks traction and slows you down.
Well I have two points to respond to that:1. I have no interest in fantasy road racing, I just want a car that is fast and fun. I'm not bothered if it can "outdo a Scooby" because in real life, no one does that.
2. If you can't drive a turbo car without breaking traction "often" then you need to assess your driving technique and whether you have any business in driving a car fast if you can't control it.
Now, back to the real world. I'm loving the CTR, have to find a way to get one on my drive.
Ref the brakes, they must shot! out of all the hot hatch's I've driven I've found the CTR's brakes to be brilliant. Yes the pedal has a fairly short travel and is quite stiff so you will find you have to stamp on them a bit harder than normal but my god do they bite. Newer cars brakes are well over assisted, I cant speak for the brakes on the Cupra but I'm guessing they might be 'easy' to press in comparrison.
The turning circle on a CTR is shocking, but then again it is on most hot hatches, its something you get used to.
Something fast and fun, the best car for that is a clio, but as you said its living with a car thats pants on the inside and will fall apart sooner rather than later.
Cant really fault the handling on the CTR, yes its crap in the wet but arent all hot hatches, in the dry its impressive. Some might say the back ends can let go but thats down to the lack of talent of the person driving it. Good rubber is essential.
As for coming from a turbo to NA you might struggle, really depends how quickly you can adapt to the driving style and learn how to exploit the CTR's engine, it can be a steep learning curve, but once mastered you will get a very rewarding drive. Yes it will naturally feel slower than the Cupra but in reality it wont be, its all in the mindset. One thing you will find you get is throttle response (its not drive by wire), once youve mastered what gear to be in at what time you will get such a rewarding drive down a nice twisty road
As for the haters, so what? you get used to them whatever you drive. Yes people will always say DC2 but the trouble is they are getting long in the tooth and its very difficult to find a decent one.
Yes I own an EP3, but im not biased, I have tried so many cars but I wanted to stick with the NA, I've always had high reving cars, I chose the CTR as it suited me, its cheap to run and service, mine has proven to be very reliable. I will end up going the turbo route in the near future with the next car but only becuase it will be forced upon me due to emissions etc, hence Im making the most out of mine while I can.
If your still thinking about it then go drive a few other CTR's, you will get duff ones, but the beauty of them being common is that you will all find some cracking genuine examples.
The turning circle on a CTR is shocking, but then again it is on most hot hatches, its something you get used to.
Something fast and fun, the best car for that is a clio, but as you said its living with a car thats pants on the inside and will fall apart sooner rather than later.
Cant really fault the handling on the CTR, yes its crap in the wet but arent all hot hatches, in the dry its impressive. Some might say the back ends can let go but thats down to the lack of talent of the person driving it. Good rubber is essential.
As for coming from a turbo to NA you might struggle, really depends how quickly you can adapt to the driving style and learn how to exploit the CTR's engine, it can be a steep learning curve, but once mastered you will get a very rewarding drive. Yes it will naturally feel slower than the Cupra but in reality it wont be, its all in the mindset. One thing you will find you get is throttle response (its not drive by wire), once youve mastered what gear to be in at what time you will get such a rewarding drive down a nice twisty road
As for the haters, so what? you get used to them whatever you drive. Yes people will always say DC2 but the trouble is they are getting long in the tooth and its very difficult to find a decent one.
Yes I own an EP3, but im not biased, I have tried so many cars but I wanted to stick with the NA, I've always had high reving cars, I chose the CTR as it suited me, its cheap to run and service, mine has proven to be very reliable. I will end up going the turbo route in the near future with the next car but only becuase it will be forced upon me due to emissions etc, hence Im making the most out of mine while I can.
If your still thinking about it then go drive a few other CTR's, you will get duff ones, but the beauty of them being common is that you will all find some cracking genuine examples.
VAG brakes are too sensitive for my liking. EP3 brakes are the opposite and need to be worked so the first time you drive the car and look to scrub off speed, the amount of imput required is far greater. Uprating the OEM pads makes a difference, or it could just be that the car you drove had tired brakes. It is an area that can be improved but the DC5 Brembos aren't much of an upgrade.
Ride height wise, if your car is lowered, it will feel different. IIRC facelift EP3's are slightly lower (53 plate onwards). A lot of people go for the fast road setup which has a big impact on how the car turns in. Well worth the money.
The Cupra and EP3 are very different cars. The Cupra is a quick comfortable hot hatch, the EP3 is raw, more involving and less comfortable. It really depends what you want from the car? I don't do big mileage and like the involvement the car offers. The throttle response, rifle like action of the exceptional gearbox and the jekyll and hyde nature of what I think is one of the best 4 cylinder N/A engines around.
My only dislikes of a car I've owned nearly five years, is the paint is very soft so used examples often have peppered front ends. The turning circle is poor and the steering feel isn't brilliant.
Those points are more than made up for by the fact that these cars are pretty bullet proof. I've been amazed at the low running costs, especially if you are fortunate enough to live near to a reputable independent Honda garage.
Ride height wise, if your car is lowered, it will feel different. IIRC facelift EP3's are slightly lower (53 plate onwards). A lot of people go for the fast road setup which has a big impact on how the car turns in. Well worth the money.
The Cupra and EP3 are very different cars. The Cupra is a quick comfortable hot hatch, the EP3 is raw, more involving and less comfortable. It really depends what you want from the car? I don't do big mileage and like the involvement the car offers. The throttle response, rifle like action of the exceptional gearbox and the jekyll and hyde nature of what I think is one of the best 4 cylinder N/A engines around.
My only dislikes of a car I've owned nearly five years, is the paint is very soft so used examples often have peppered front ends. The turning circle is poor and the steering feel isn't brilliant.
Those points are more than made up for by the fact that these cars are pretty bullet proof. I've been amazed at the low running costs, especially if you are fortunate enough to live near to a reputable independent Honda garage.
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