Evo 4 or Celica GT4 ST205 – Track / Project Car
Discussion
Hi Folks,
As the title suggests... Any thoughts between an Evo 4 and a Celica GT4 ST205?
I’m really looking for a good value project car. I’ll try to do as much work on the car as possible myself.
It’s really something to tweak, tune and improve upon, I am not after a show queen or indeed the fastest car ever. However I still want something fairly robust, hence I haven’t really looked at the Impreza’s (do correct me if I should consider them).
Apart from both cars tune-ability, the fact that they are also four wheel drive will help as a “practical” solution in the winter… Defending the second toy car to myself… A stripped, bucket seated, harnessed rally refugee will be really practical
.
I’ll be looking to do things like service and maintain the car. Rebuild callipers, refresh belts, re-bush… A learning project you could say.
Now between the two cars, the Evo may automatically jump to be the obvious choice. However it seems from research the Celica is a little more robust, potentially easier to work on too?
Of course the Evo has it on the handling front and the available parts over the Celica.
The Celica is reputed to have cheaper insurance over the Evo’s/Impreza’s.
Once brought up to a reasonable level, it will move to a fast road car and then a track car. It would be a case of tweak something, drive it, learn, realise I’ve ruined it and set it back
.
Please do let me know your realistic thoughts
.
Thanks in advance!
Neil
As the title suggests... Any thoughts between an Evo 4 and a Celica GT4 ST205?
I’m really looking for a good value project car. I’ll try to do as much work on the car as possible myself.
It’s really something to tweak, tune and improve upon, I am not after a show queen or indeed the fastest car ever. However I still want something fairly robust, hence I haven’t really looked at the Impreza’s (do correct me if I should consider them).
Apart from both cars tune-ability, the fact that they are also four wheel drive will help as a “practical” solution in the winter… Defending the second toy car to myself… A stripped, bucket seated, harnessed rally refugee will be really practical
.I’ll be looking to do things like service and maintain the car. Rebuild callipers, refresh belts, re-bush… A learning project you could say.
Now between the two cars, the Evo may automatically jump to be the obvious choice. However it seems from research the Celica is a little more robust, potentially easier to work on too?
Of course the Evo has it on the handling front and the available parts over the Celica.
The Celica is reputed to have cheaper insurance over the Evo’s/Impreza’s.
Once brought up to a reasonable level, it will move to a fast road car and then a track car. It would be a case of tweak something, drive it, learn, realise I’ve ruined it and set it back
.Please do let me know your realistic thoughts
.Thanks in advance!
Neil
The classic Imprezas are cheap as the others and fairly plentiful too. I had heard they were fairly robust, apart from the P1 which allegedly had some engine troubles running on the UKs lower RON petrols than what Japan get - not that you'd want to fiddle with a P1!
I looked into Celica GT4 ST205 WRC editions before I got my Seat Cupra R, they are fairly cheap and indeed, pretty tough. I really wanted a Carlos Sainz limited edition, but could not find a good one at the time I was buying. Again, like the P1 the Sainz is probably a bit special to strip back and modify into a track car. The Celica Not the fastest car in the world in a straight line, but pretty steady in the corners. It also has a bit of kudos as the less obvious rally rep choice than an Impreza or an Evo. Indeed, they are cheaper to insure (in my experience at least) than Evos and Imprezas too, probably partly because they are not as quick, but it's probable that less of them have been crashed. Also, being a bit more "under the radar" than the other two would make it less attractive to thieves.
I looked into Celica GT4 ST205 WRC editions before I got my Seat Cupra R, they are fairly cheap and indeed, pretty tough. I really wanted a Carlos Sainz limited edition, but could not find a good one at the time I was buying. Again, like the P1 the Sainz is probably a bit special to strip back and modify into a track car. The Celica Not the fastest car in the world in a straight line, but pretty steady in the corners. It also has a bit of kudos as the less obvious rally rep choice than an Impreza or an Evo. Indeed, they are cheaper to insure (in my experience at least) than Evos and Imprezas too, probably partly because they are not as quick, but it's probable that less of them have been crashed. Also, being a bit more "under the radar" than the other two would make it less attractive to thieves.
if its going to be a purley track car then id go for the st205 personally driven both and i think with a good suspension set up they are better in corners, although they are quite heavy but once stripped i have seen them taken down to a little over a tonne, but that serious stripping, be wary of the fron suspension arms as they are prone to wearing out at around 80k and are expensive to replace although it is possible to convert to normal wish bone from the non turbo celica's, clutches are expensive and time consuming jobs on them but very capable engines and good strong gearboxes perfectly capable of good power depending on your goals, stock internals are good for around 360-370bhp, parts are redily avaliable and the gt4oc are a very helpfull bunch.
Thanks for the replies folks, most appreciated !
Mastodon2, you are quite right regarding slipping under the radar. That sure has its advantages at times.
The P1 is a ledgendary car, however it may be a little out of budget for this
.
Good choice on the Cupra R, great value cars!
However the Celica with 240 horsies would be pokey enough. Especially if its easily exploited on the road and can put all of that down mid corner too.
essexgt4, thanks for all the info. I don't see the figure 8s as that big a problem, hey they have to be replaced so be it, likewise with the arms that go with them. I haven't became a paid member of the GT4OC... yet...
I'm glad to see neither produce big negatives.
!Mastodon2, you are quite right regarding slipping under the radar. That sure has its advantages at times.
The P1 is a ledgendary car, however it may be a little out of budget for this
.Good choice on the Cupra R, great value cars!
However the Celica with 240 horsies would be pokey enough. Especially if its easily exploited on the road and can put all of that down mid corner too
.essexgt4, thanks for all the info
. I don't see the figure 8s as that big a problem, hey they have to be replaced so be it, likewise with the arms that go with them. I haven't became a paid member of the GT4OC... yet... I'm glad to see neither produce big negatives
.AWD cars make s
t track cars IMO. They're heavy, go through pads, disks, tyres, brake fluid like nothing on earth. Servicing, which if you're tracking it, you'll need to do very very frequently is also expensive. They're not even that much fun when you get them on track.
If I were you, I would get a cheap MX5, kit car, pug 205 as your track toy and a daily snotter on winters for winter.
Oh and as most Evos and Scoobies run summer tyres, they're generally crap in the winter too - don't be fooled by the AWD thing.
They're better left as b-road toys. If you don't believe me compare the 100-150k+ time attack car lap times to those of the RGB series cars, which typically cost 20k.
t track cars IMO. They're heavy, go through pads, disks, tyres, brake fluid like nothing on earth. Servicing, which if you're tracking it, you'll need to do very very frequently is also expensive. They're not even that much fun when you get them on track.If I were you, I would get a cheap MX5, kit car, pug 205 as your track toy and a daily snotter on winters for winter.
Oh and as most Evos and Scoobies run summer tyres, they're generally crap in the winter too - don't be fooled by the AWD thing.
They're better left as b-road toys. If you don't believe me compare the 100-150k+ time attack car lap times to those of the RGB series cars, which typically cost 20k.
rhinochopig said:
AWD cars make st track cars IMO. They're heavy, go through pads, disks, tyres, brake fluid like nothing on earth. Servicing, which if you're tracking it, you'll need to do very very frequently is also expensive. They're not even that much fun when you get them on track.
If I were you, I would get a cheap MX5, kit car, pug 205 as your track toy and a daily snotter on winters for winter.
Oh and as most Evos and Scoobies run summer tyres, they're generally crap in the winter too - don't be fooled by the AWD thing.
They're better left as b-road toys. If you don't believe me compare the 100-150k+ time attack car lap times to those of the RGB series cars, which typically cost 20k.
Hi rhinochopig thanks for the reply t track cars IMO. They're heavy, go through pads, disks, tyres, brake fluid like nothing on earth. Servicing, which if you're tracking it, you'll need to do very very frequently is also expensive. They're not even that much fun when you get them on track.If I were you, I would get a cheap MX5, kit car, pug 205 as your track toy and a daily snotter on winters for winter.
Oh and as most Evos and Scoobies run summer tyres, they're generally crap in the winter too - don't be fooled by the AWD thing.
They're better left as b-road toys. If you don't believe me compare the 100-150k+ time attack car lap times to those of the RGB series cars, which typically cost 20k.
.The MX5 etc while I appreciate it, is not for me. I'm after something with a bit of grunt to be honest. I know you can supercharge / turbocharge them to your hears content though.
Don't worry the winter months would bring winter tyres. The joys of working in the tyre industry for quite a few years, mates rates also help.
It will be a b-road toy too. I'm not looking to be the quickest round the track, I just think the EVO and GT4 are more my bag. I may get passed by an MX5, horses for courses as they say
. Arguably better value for tinkering with too.Neil_M said:
rhinochopig said:
AWD cars make st track cars IMO. They're heavy, go through pads, disks, tyres, brake fluid like nothing on earth. Servicing, which if you're tracking it, you'll need to do very very frequently is also expensive. They're not even that much fun when you get them on track.
If I were you, I would get a cheap MX5, kit car, pug 205 as your track toy and a daily snotter on winters for winter.
Oh and as most Evos and Scoobies run summer tyres, they're generally crap in the winter too - don't be fooled by the AWD thing.
They're better left as b-road toys. If you don't believe me compare the 100-150k+ time attack car lap times to those of the RGB series cars, which typically cost 20k.
Hi rhinochopig thanks for the reply t track cars IMO. They're heavy, go through pads, disks, tyres, brake fluid like nothing on earth. Servicing, which if you're tracking it, you'll need to do very very frequently is also expensive. They're not even that much fun when you get them on track.If I were you, I would get a cheap MX5, kit car, pug 205 as your track toy and a daily snotter on winters for winter.
Oh and as most Evos and Scoobies run summer tyres, they're generally crap in the winter too - don't be fooled by the AWD thing.
They're better left as b-road toys. If you don't believe me compare the 100-150k+ time attack car lap times to those of the RGB series cars, which typically cost 20k.
.The MX5 etc while I appreciate it, is not for me. I'm after something with a bit of grunt to be honest. I know you can supercharge / turbocharge them to your hears content though.
Don't worry the winter months would bring winter tyres. The joys of working in the tyre industry for quite a few years, mates rates also help.
It will be a b-road toy too. I'm not looking to be the quickest round the track, I just think the EVO and GT4 are more my bag. I may get passed by an MX5, horses for courses as they say
. Arguably better value for tinkering with too.Importantly, I also don't wake up on a Sunday morning itching to go for a blast in it like I did with the Westy. A kit car will run rings around an AWD car in the driver involvement stakes. I used to love playing with the yaw of my westy on track with the throttle - lift off into a corner, wait for the back to come around and then hold the slip angle on the throttle. You could do it all day. You simply can't with an Evo - yes it will over-steer, but because you lose boost when you lift off, you simply can't play in the same way as you can with a light NA RWD car.
For the cost of a set of Evo pads and disks I could run my Westy for 3 or 4 trackdays. And if you want fast, you can pick up a Megabird / Busa for circa £8k with all the race options ticked, which will crack 0-100 in ~ 9 seconds, and lap Donny with an average driver as fast as a slick-shod carrera cup car.
Before you commit, cross post this in the kit-car section and see if you can blag a ride in one because I guarantee if you do, your money will be spent on a kit-car rather than an Subarishiota. If I didn't have the need for a child seat capable vehicle, I would be back in one (or an Elise) in a shot.
rhinochopig said:
Oh and as most Evos and Scoobies run summer tyres, they're generally crap in the winter too - don't be fooled by the AWD thing.
I was 5 years in Evo's and found them to be excellent in the wintertime and I live in the Highlands so disagree with your comment.If you do go for a IV try and get one with a newer engine as they were pretty bad for crank walk
craig2003 said:
rhinochopig said:
Oh and as most Evos and Scoobies run summer tyres, they're generally crap in the winter too - don't be fooled by the AWD thing.
I was 5 years in Evo's and found them to be excellent in the wintertime and I live in the Highlands so disagree with your comment.If you do go for a IV try and get one with a newer engine as they were pretty bad for crank walk
My old scoob was far less tail happy I have to say.
rhinochopig said:
craig2003 said:
rhinochopig said:
Oh and as most Evos and Scoobies run summer tyres, they're generally crap in the winter too - don't be fooled by the AWD thing.
I was 5 years in Evo's and found them to be excellent in the wintertime and I live in the Highlands so disagree with your comment.If you do go for a IV try and get one with a newer engine as they were pretty bad for crank walk
My old scoob was far less tail happy I have to say.
Neil_M said:
Thanks for the replies folks, most appreciated !
Mastodon2, you are quite right regarding slipping under the radar. That sure has its advantages at times.
The P1 is a ledgendary car, however it may be a little out of budget for this.
Good choice on the Cupra R, great value cars!
I don't have the Cupra R now, sold it for a Civic Type R, and could not be happier!!Mastodon2, you are quite right regarding slipping under the radar. That sure has its advantages at times.
The P1 is a ledgendary car, however it may be a little out of budget for this
.Good choice on the Cupra R, great value cars!
As for the comment about Imprezas and Evos being crap in the snow, my dad said his Impreza was great, and I saw the local Evos out and about last winter in the worst of it, they didn't seem to be having any problems. There is even a GT4 ST205 just down the road from where I live, he was coming and going in the snow too. None of these cars seem left wanting for traction, but I suppose if you think you are going to be flying sideways through corners in controlled slides like Sebastien Loeb on a Swedish snow stage, winters tyres or not you've got another thing coming!
As a track toy, as suggested already you don’t really want the heavy 4wd. Have you considered a mr2 turbo (same engine as celica GT4 but in a fair bit lighter car with less transmission power loses makes for a considerably quicker car, with engine weight over the driven wheels it doesn’t have a problem getting power down despite only being 2wd.
The Celica or mr2 turbo both run a lot lower standard boost pressure than Evos, Toyota played it very safe out of the factory but it’s widely considered safe to turn boost to 1.1/1.2bar on a cheap MBC, this is then similar to the evo boost level and it then it makes a similar 280bhp so there is not much in it performance wise.
The Celica or mr2 turbo both run a lot lower standard boost pressure than Evos, Toyota played it very safe out of the factory but it’s widely considered safe to turn boost to 1.1/1.2bar on a cheap MBC, this is then similar to the evo boost level and it then it makes a similar 280bhp so there is not much in it performance wise.
Mastodon2 said:
I don't have the Cupra R now, sold it for a Civic Type R, and could not be happier!
As for the comment about Imprezas and Evos being crap in the snow, my dad said his Impreza was great, and I saw the local Evos out and about last winter in the worst of it, they didn't seem to be having any problems. There is even a GT4 ST205 just down the road from where I live, he was coming and going in the snow too. None of these cars seem left wanting for traction, but I suppose if you think you are going to be flying sideways through corners in controlled slides like Sebastien Loeb on a Swedish snow stage, winters tyres or not you've got another thing coming!
I guess its like all things... I managed in the snow with very dry weather, low profile tyres, shy of racing rubber... but I managed. AWD partnered with appropriate tyres would be a force to be reckoned with As for the comment about Imprezas and Evos being crap in the snow, my dad said his Impreza was great, and I saw the local Evos out and about last winter in the worst of it, they didn't seem to be having any problems. There is even a GT4 ST205 just down the road from where I live, he was coming and going in the snow too. None of these cars seem left wanting for traction, but I suppose if you think you are going to be flying sideways through corners in controlled slides like Sebastien Loeb on a Swedish snow stage, winters tyres or not you've got another thing coming!
.I'm no Loeb though, so I will be a little restrained.. perhaps!
mikey P 500 said:
As a track toy, as suggested already you don’t really want the heavy 4wd. Have you considered a mr2 turbo (same engine as celica GT4 but in a fair bit lighter car with less transmission power loses makes for a considerably quicker car, with engine weight over the driven wheels it doesn’t have a problem getting power down despite only being 2wd.
The Celica or mr2 turbo both run a lot lower standard boost pressure than Evos, Toyota played it very safe out of the factory but it’s widely considered safe to turn boost to 1.1/1.2bar on a cheap MBC, this is then similar to the evo boost level and it then it makes a similar 280bhp so there is not much in it performance wise.
Thanks for the reply Mikey.The Celica or mr2 turbo both run a lot lower standard boost pressure than Evos, Toyota played it very safe out of the factory but it’s widely considered safe to turn boost to 1.1/1.2bar on a cheap MBC, this is then similar to the evo boost level and it then it makes a similar 280bhp so there is not much in it performance wise.
It will also be a fast road car, b-road blaster, the AWD is also appealing where I live, for the winter months. I do think it would be a draw back not having the AWD to be honest.
I'll take a modest stance, and say the Mr2 is an awesome car, however its twitchy reputation may be a little much for me.
Anything I have read agree with what you say about the boost levels and power outputs. It does seem that the Celica isn't quite as"on the edge" as the Evos etc.
Neil_M said:
mikey P 500 said:
As a track toy, as suggested already you don’t really want the heavy 4wd. Have you considered a mr2 turbo (same engine as celica GT4 but in a fair bit lighter car with less transmission power loses makes for a considerably quicker car, with engine weight over the driven wheels it doesn’t have a problem getting power down despite only being 2wd.
The Celica or mr2 turbo both run a lot lower standard boost pressure than Evos, Toyota played it very safe out of the factory but it’s widely considered safe to turn boost to 1.1/1.2bar on a cheap MBC, this is then similar to the evo boost level and it then it makes a similar 280bhp so there is not much in it performance wise.
Thanks for the reply Mikey.The Celica or mr2 turbo both run a lot lower standard boost pressure than Evos, Toyota played it very safe out of the factory but it’s widely considered safe to turn boost to 1.1/1.2bar on a cheap MBC, this is then similar to the evo boost level and it then it makes a similar 280bhp so there is not much in it performance wise.
It will also be a fast road car, b-road blaster, the AWD is also appealing where I live, for the winter months. I do think it would be a draw back not having the AWD to be honest.
I'll take a modest stance, and say the Mr2 is an awesome car, however its twitchy reputation may be a little much for me.
Anything I have read agree with what you say about the boost levels and power outputs. It does seem that the Celica isn't quite as"on the edge" as the Evos etc.
Modifying a Scoob or an Evo is an absolute money pit once you start, and you'll see a fraction of your 'investment' back when you come to change.
The other advice is that you really do need to decide whether it's either a b road car or a track car as one set-up for one environment will generally be poor on the other.
On a b-road car really needs something akin to a grp-n tarmac set-up so you want to be looking at either standard dampers and springs - you need the compliance - or a set of quality coilovers such as Exe TC, Intrax, Ohlins, etc. and the ride height needs to be set on the high side.
Do not, whatever you do, buy a car that has been fitted with lowering springs - it will be terrible down a b-road and will not hold a line through a corner - my VII RS came lowered from Japan and it was utterly s
te on anything other than a smooth road. On the standard springs it was much much better. That said, softer springs, higher ride height makes the car less adept on track. Evos and scoobs are also sensitive to geo, so you should make sure that you get it set up by someone who knows their game and will give you a set-up that suits how you want to drive the car. You'd be amazed at the number of threads I've read where people have fitted new dampers or springs themselves and then not bothered to get a laser alignment done afterwards.
You should also be aware that there are a worrying amount of shysters in the world of Evo and Impreza - as ever, Caveat Emptor, with both private sales and dealers. That said, there are also some really really superb outfits who will go way beyond the norm to help you out.
My final piece of advice would be that certainly in my experience (like for like), the Scoob is generally a better all rounder than the Evo, but the Evo makes a much better weekend toy. Just my opinion though, drive them and make your own mind up.
As an aside to dispel a few myths, my Westy was much much faster down a b-road than my Evo, even in the wet. Our old sportka on winter tyres was also much much better than my Evo on summers in the winter months on the NY moors (This year past we had several feet of snow in places - easily as bad as the highlands in places).
craig2003 said:
rhinochopig said:
Oh and as most Evos and Scoobies run summer tyres, they're generally crap in the winter too - don't be fooled by the AWD thing.
I was 5 years in Evo's and found them to be excellent in the wintertime and I live in the Highlands so disagree with your comment.If you do go for a IV try and get one with a newer engine as they were pretty bad for crank walk
rhinochopig said:
AWD cars make st track cars IMO. They're heavy, go through pads, disks, tyres, brake fluid like nothing on earth. Servicing, which if you're tracking it, you'll need to do very very frequently is also expensive. They're not even that much fun when you get them on track.
Also disagree with all that, they are heavy compared to what? Mine has not gone through any of the consumables you have mentioned, and servicing is no more expensive than any other car, filters and oil job done, unless you do the cambelt.t track cars IMO. They're heavy, go through pads, disks, tyres, brake fluid like nothing on earth. Servicing, which if you're tracking it, you'll need to do very very frequently is also expensive. They're not even that much fun when you get them on track.I have seen plenty of people having loads of fun in them on track too.
rb5er said:
craig2003 said:
rhinochopig said:
Oh and as most Evos and Scoobies run summer tyres, they're generally crap in the winter too - don't be fooled by the AWD thing.
I was 5 years in Evo's and found them to be excellent in the wintertime and I live in the Highlands so disagree with your comment.If you do go for a IV try and get one with a newer engine as they were pretty bad for crank walk
rb5er said:
craig2003 said:
rhinochopig said:
Oh and as most Evos and Scoobies run summer tyres, they're generally crap in the winter too - don't be fooled by the AWD thing.
I was 5 years in Evo's and found them to be excellent in the wintertime and I live in the Highlands so disagree with your comment.If you do go for a IV try and get one with a newer engine as they were pretty bad for crank walk
The issue of AWD in snow has been covered to death on PH, and there is a simple way to end this argument. Evo conclusively (well enough for me anyway) closed this debate a while ago. They tested a Jag and an Evo X in the snow and the Jag XJR on winter tyres was 25 seconds a lap faster a lap than an Evo 10 on summer tyres at Bedford autodrome in the snow. http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/248524/winter_ty...
The fact is that AWD is not the panacea many think it is. A 2WD on winters is much much better in snow than a 4WD.
Regarding your other point, I notice from your garage that you have no experience of running Elises, MX5s, Caterfields, etc. as track cars, so your argument doesn't really hold water. Also nowhere do I say that you can't have fun in one on track. My point is that as a track car there are myriad better suited cars for track work that will offer more fun, for less cost, than a turbo charged AWD car. Don't take my word for it, have a look at what the TD companies use for their rentals and you won't find many AWD cars on their fleet because they are expensive to run and are simply not as much fun on track.
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