mild tuning of an impreza rb5 wr sport/
Discussion
Getting it properly remapped by a reputable mapper would be a good start. Will easily beat a PPP map, and also be safer due to being exactly tailored to the strengths and weaknesses of your particular engine.
Can't remember exactly what turbo the RB5 runs with but I suspect it'll run out of puff before 300, so you'll probs need to upgrade it. You'll also need to improve the airflow through the car so should consider a full or partial exhaust replacement for one with a wider bore.
Whereabouts in the country are you...?
Can't remember exactly what turbo the RB5 runs with but I suspect it'll run out of puff before 300, so you'll probs need to upgrade it. You'll also need to improve the airflow through the car so should consider a full or partial exhaust replacement for one with a wider bore.
Whereabouts in the country are you...?
Edited by NorthDownsScooby on Tuesday 16th November 10:42
Sounds like you are in the coverage area for Simon, the Jolly Green Monster. He does most of our cars daaan Saaarf..and a lot oop Nurth too. Drop him a line...say what your looking to do and he'll give you a definitive idea of what will be needed.
http://www.jollygreenmonster.com/
http://www.jollygreenmonster.com/
and if you're looking for someone to do the work then consider TFS Racing or Greenwood Racing Developments in Surreyville.
http://www.greenwoodracing.co.uk/ (James)
http://www.tfsracing.co.uk/ (Stew)
http://www.greenwoodracing.co.uk/ (James)
http://www.tfsracing.co.uk/ (Stew)
You run a TD04 turbo so with the standard injectors and intercooler it should be good for 270-280bhp. You'll need a decent fully decat 68mm exhaust system right through (don't go for 3" which is 76mm or you'll lose torque), quality high flow air filter, walbro 255lph fuel pump, and a remap.
The key to making your car much quicker without pushing too hard at the top end, and possibly making it unreliable, is torque. With the above setup you should be seeing over 300-310ft/lb torque which is enough to make your car considerably quicker than it is now.
Horsepower doesn't make quick cars, torque does and that's where your mapper should be concentrating his efforts. Torque is much more difficult to extract than horsepower on a petrol car, even with a turbo, but that's what makes the difference between a car that drives really well and wants to pull strongly from low down and a car which is peaky and only ever wants to go when you floor it, which is not so nice to drive every day.
Unfortunately you are limited to an EcuTek remap which isn't cheap because there is no Open Source solution for 99/00 cars.
Look at paying £600-£700+vat just for the remap.
ETA: Far too many scooby drivers are hung up on engine bhp numbers when actually it means feck all. What you should be more concerned about is the amount of power your car is putting down on the road. In terms of HP the only one that matters is WHP (wheel horsepower) and is probably the most accurate measure of genuinely how much power your car makes.
If you have a car that makes 600bhp but is only putting down 300-400 of that bhp then the original engine bhp figure becomes insignificant. Because it sounds more than 300 or 400whp car manufacturers for decades have conditioned the general public and used bhp to make their cars out to sound more powerful than they really are, and that sells cars.
Just to emphasize how important torque is. A professionally built Group N rally car i saw recently only ran 300 engine bhp. Not very much you think however, it did have over 528ft/lb torque. It's the torque that makes it an ultra quick car and capable of some impossibly fast 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, not bhp.
The key to making your car much quicker without pushing too hard at the top end, and possibly making it unreliable, is torque. With the above setup you should be seeing over 300-310ft/lb torque which is enough to make your car considerably quicker than it is now.
Horsepower doesn't make quick cars, torque does and that's where your mapper should be concentrating his efforts. Torque is much more difficult to extract than horsepower on a petrol car, even with a turbo, but that's what makes the difference between a car that drives really well and wants to pull strongly from low down and a car which is peaky and only ever wants to go when you floor it, which is not so nice to drive every day.
Unfortunately you are limited to an EcuTek remap which isn't cheap because there is no Open Source solution for 99/00 cars.
Look at paying £600-£700+vat just for the remap.
ETA: Far too many scooby drivers are hung up on engine bhp numbers when actually it means feck all. What you should be more concerned about is the amount of power your car is putting down on the road. In terms of HP the only one that matters is WHP (wheel horsepower) and is probably the most accurate measure of genuinely how much power your car makes.
If you have a car that makes 600bhp but is only putting down 300-400 of that bhp then the original engine bhp figure becomes insignificant. Because it sounds more than 300 or 400whp car manufacturers for decades have conditioned the general public and used bhp to make their cars out to sound more powerful than they really are, and that sells cars.
Just to emphasize how important torque is. A professionally built Group N rally car i saw recently only ran 300 engine bhp. Not very much you think however, it did have over 528ft/lb torque. It's the torque that makes it an ultra quick car and capable of some impossibly fast 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, not bhp.
Edited by ScoobieWRX on Tuesday 16th November 11:24
well i dont want to change the prodrive exhaust system as i like the tailpipe and dont want it too noisy, i went in a p1 the other day with a ninja system and it really was terrible, did my head in after a 15 minute drive, just so loud.
i wont be paying £600-£700 for a remap either so looks like it will be staying as is, its plenty quick anyway but im just being greedy.
all the mods suggested would probably add up to over £2k which to me is too much and id rather spend on a full respray/wheel refurb, the 300bhp p1 did not feel £2k quicker than mine. oh well.
i wont be paying £600-£700 for a remap either so looks like it will be staying as is, its plenty quick anyway but im just being greedy.
all the mods suggested would probably add up to over £2k which to me is too much and id rather spend on a full respray/wheel refurb, the 300bhp p1 did not feel £2k quicker than mine. oh well.
A standard diameter size exhaust system, fuel pump and panel air filter can be had for less than £500. Figure in the cost of a remap as well and you're looking at around £1200-£1400 including VAT. As you already have a part Prodrive exhaust fitted you won't have to replace the Prodrive bits and it will wrok out even cheaper.
The reason you're exploring more power is the same as everyone else's. You are either well used to the car and would like some more, or someone blew you away from the lights while laughing hysterically at you or on a circuit, or both, and you don't want that to happen again because it's embarrasing.
Well, you can have more but you will have to dip into your savings.
The reason you're exploring more power is the same as everyone else's. You are either well used to the car and would like some more, or someone blew you away from the lights while laughing hysterically at you or on a circuit, or both, and you don't want that to happen again because it's embarrasing.
Well, you can have more but you will have to dip into your savings.
ScoobieWRX said:
A standard diameter size exhaust system, fuel pump and panel air filter can be had for less than £500. Figure in the cost of a remap as well and you're looking at around £1200-£1400 including VAT. As you already have a part Prodrive exhaust fitted you won't have to replace the Prodrive bits and it will wrok out even cheaper.
The reason you're exploring more power is the same as everyone else's. You are either well used to the car and would like some more, or someone blew you away from the lights while laughing hysterically at you or on a circuit, or both, and you don't want that to happen again because it's embarrasing.
Well, you can have more but you will have to dip into your savings.
i thought my prodrive exhaust was a full cat-back system, is this not right? my car has a pipercross panel filter anyway.The reason you're exploring more power is the same as everyone else's. You are either well used to the car and would like some more, or someone blew you away from the lights while laughing hysterically at you or on a circuit, or both, and you don't want that to happen again because it's embarrasing.
Well, you can have more but you will have to dip into your savings.
and i am yet to be blown away by anything at the lights and not had it on a track yet, so only hysterical laughing is by me so far, im used to the power but still think it plenty quick eough for road use anyway but would perhaps like it to be decent on track for when i do think about tracking it next year.
i have put uprated pads and discs on it with dot5.1 fluid and i dont fancy the suspension being changed as i think its pretty much perfect for the roads so thought id look into possible power upgrades, but then like i said i think i might just spend the money on making it 100% mint rather than feel slightly more powerful.
NorthDownsScooby said:
PPP usually only replaces the backbox section of the exhaust, but this may have been different for the RB5.
Well it is certainly made of stainless steel unless its very well galvanised as it is original and has no corrosion at all. Another reason for not wanting to replace it.I used to have a MY99 with PPP, so mechanically the same as yours OP. Once out of warranty I wanted to up the power without spending a fortune and I ended up with a car which was much better to drive due to the big increase in mid-range torque.
As far as I can remember I did the following:
Decat downpipe and centre pipe (kept the Prodrive backbox) - £250?
Green Panel filter - £40?
Walbro 255 fuel pump plus an adjustable regulator - £150?
Manual boost controller (Dawes device) set to just below fuel-cut - £40
I also had an HKS dump valve as I loved the huge pops and ridiculous flames I used to get
.
I guess it was running around 270/280bhp with a similar torque figure and it was very reliable (car had done over 130,000 miles when I sold it).
As others have said, you need a remap to take full advantage of these mods but I didn't bother and it was a fantastic car.
Don't forget to sort the brakes and suspension out too!!!!
Dibs
As far as I can remember I did the following:
Decat downpipe and centre pipe (kept the Prodrive backbox) - £250?
Green Panel filter - £40?
Walbro 255 fuel pump plus an adjustable regulator - £150?
Manual boost controller (Dawes device) set to just below fuel-cut - £40
I also had an HKS dump valve as I loved the huge pops and ridiculous flames I used to get
.I guess it was running around 270/280bhp with a similar torque figure and it was very reliable (car had done over 130,000 miles when I sold it).
As others have said, you need a remap to take full advantage of these mods but I didn't bother and it was a fantastic car.
Don't forget to sort the brakes and suspension out too!!!!
Dibs
I would just like to point out that regardless of what add-ons you fit to your engine, with exception of a higher flowing air filter that sometimes will send the MAF scaling off a bit, for you car to run efficiently you need to remap. As soon as you make a physical change it sends everything else out of kilter so you have to recalibrate the ECU to compensate and make best use of those changes.
Upping boost on a TD04 to a point just before fuel cut is not adviseable as you're then operating very close to the outside of it's normal operating parameters and potentially run the risk of turning it into a flame thrower if you go much further. 17psi max is all you need on a TD04 to make 270-280bhp and that's very close to factory fuel cut.
Doing this via a dawes device means that you're not making appropriate changes via the ECU to fuelling and timing as well, and it's likely that you were not only running much leaner than standard but likely getting some detonation as well in part due to the higher timing in places the standard car runs over a remapped car.
Your exhaust flames during a gearchange just go to show how much fuel is being dumped through the exhaust at that precise moment due to your aftermarket BOV creating a rich state at gearchange time which means all that excess fuel is regularly washing your cylinder bores of valuable lubrication before it's expelled and burned in a hot exhaust.
Not such a good thing. The standard factory recirculating BOV is a cracking good bit of kit, good for well over 400bhp, and doesn't do flames because it works in harmony with everything else Subaru provided. Not required on any Subaru car unless you're making big power or possibly runing an FMIC although you can run a factory BOV with a frontmount and the right pipework adapter. Works very well indeed and keeps things smooth.
You were very lucky to have a car that remained reliable, and likely you drove it with some mechanical sympathy in mind but a lot of Subaru both classic and newage, modded like yours, become unreliable and don't last that long, specially when driven hard regularly as a lot of Subaru are.
Upping boost on a TD04 to a point just before fuel cut is not adviseable as you're then operating very close to the outside of it's normal operating parameters and potentially run the risk of turning it into a flame thrower if you go much further. 17psi max is all you need on a TD04 to make 270-280bhp and that's very close to factory fuel cut.
Doing this via a dawes device means that you're not making appropriate changes via the ECU to fuelling and timing as well, and it's likely that you were not only running much leaner than standard but likely getting some detonation as well in part due to the higher timing in places the standard car runs over a remapped car.
Your exhaust flames during a gearchange just go to show how much fuel is being dumped through the exhaust at that precise moment due to your aftermarket BOV creating a rich state at gearchange time which means all that excess fuel is regularly washing your cylinder bores of valuable lubrication before it's expelled and burned in a hot exhaust.
Not such a good thing. The standard factory recirculating BOV is a cracking good bit of kit, good for well over 400bhp, and doesn't do flames because it works in harmony with everything else Subaru provided. Not required on any Subaru car unless you're making big power or possibly runing an FMIC although you can run a factory BOV with a frontmount and the right pipework adapter. Works very well indeed and keeps things smooth.
You were very lucky to have a car that remained reliable, and likely you drove it with some mechanical sympathy in mind but a lot of Subaru both classic and newage, modded like yours, become unreliable and don't last that long, specially when driven hard regularly as a lot of Subaru are.
Edited by ScoobieWRX on Tuesday 16th November 14:00
NorthDownsScooby said:
and if you're looking for someone to do the work then consider TFS Racing or Greenwood Racing Developments in Surreyville.
http://www.greenwoodracing.co.uk/ (James)
http://www.tfsracing.co.uk/ (Stew)
Top marks for Stew http://www.greenwoodracing.co.uk/ (James)
http://www.tfsracing.co.uk/ (Stew)
he has just returned my Scooby to full fitness. It will be back with him for a little fettling in febuary as well.ScoobieWRX said:
I would just like to point out that regardless of what add-ons you fit to your engine, with exception of a higher flowing air filter that sometimes will send the MAF scaling off a bit, for you car to run efficiently you need to remap. As soon as you make a physical change it sends everything else out of kilter so you have to recalibrate the ECU to compensate and make best use of those changes.
Upping boost on a TD04 to a point just before fuel cut is not adviseable as you're then operating very close to the outside of it's normal operating parameters and potentially run the risk of turning it into a flame thrower if you go much further. 17psi max is all you need on a TD04 to make 270-280bhp and that's very close to factory fuel cut.
Doing this via a dawes device means that you're not making appropriate changes via the ECU to fuelling and timing as well, and it's likely that you were not only running much leaner than standard but likely getting some detonation as well in part due to the higher timing in places the standard car runs over a remapped car.
Your exhaust flames during a gearchange just go to show how much fuel is being dumped through the exhaust at that precise moment due to your aftermarket BOV creating a rich state at gearchange time which means all that excess fuel is regularly washing your cylinder bores of valuable lubrication before it's expelled and burned in a hot exhaust.
Not such a good thing. The standard factory recirculating BOV is a cracking good bit of kit, good for well over 400bhp, and doesn't do flames because it works in harmony with everything else Subaru provided. Not required on any Subaru car unless you're making big power or possibly runing an FMIC although you can run a factory BOV with a frontmount and the right pipework adapter. Works very well indeed and keeps things smooth.
You were very lucky to have a car that remained reliable, and likely you drove it with some mechanical sympathy in mind but a lot of Subaru both classic and newage, modded like yours, become unreliable and don't last that long, specially when driven hard regularly as a lot of Subaru are.
I have some eggs if you'd like a go sucking on them Upping boost on a TD04 to a point just before fuel cut is not adviseable as you're then operating very close to the outside of it's normal operating parameters and potentially run the risk of turning it into a flame thrower if you go much further. 17psi max is all you need on a TD04 to make 270-280bhp and that's very close to factory fuel cut.
Doing this via a dawes device means that you're not making appropriate changes via the ECU to fuelling and timing as well, and it's likely that you were not only running much leaner than standard but likely getting some detonation as well in part due to the higher timing in places the standard car runs over a remapped car.
Your exhaust flames during a gearchange just go to show how much fuel is being dumped through the exhaust at that precise moment due to your aftermarket BOV creating a rich state at gearchange time which means all that excess fuel is regularly washing your cylinder bores of valuable lubrication before it's expelled and burned in a hot exhaust.
Not such a good thing. The standard factory recirculating BOV is a cracking good bit of kit, good for well over 400bhp, and doesn't do flames because it works in harmony with everything else Subaru provided. Not required on any Subaru car unless you're making big power or possibly runing an FMIC although you can run a factory BOV with a frontmount and the right pipework adapter. Works very well indeed and keeps things smooth.
You were very lucky to have a car that remained reliable, and likely you drove it with some mechanical sympathy in mind but a lot of Subaru both classic and newage, modded like yours, become unreliable and don't last that long, specially when driven hard regularly as a lot of Subaru are.
Edited by ScoobieWRX on Tuesday 16th November 14:00
rb5230 said:
NorthDownsScooby said:
PPP usually only replaces the backbox section of the exhaust, but this may have been different for the RB5.
Well it is certainly made of stainless steel unless its very well galvanised as it is original and has no corrosion at all. Another reason for not wanting to replace it.Typing on phone so wont be as complete as a typed reply
Dump to atmpsphere dump valve - where does the air on the original go? Into the inlet pipe, the throttle is shut so it cannot enter the engine on a gearchange same as with atmospheric dump valve, no dump valve, recirculate dumpvalve. Due to overrun cut off there is no fuel injected on overrun so no bore wash at this point.
Dump to atmosphere working perfectly causes no issue, but they do often open on high speed cruise, full throttle and ease off throttle slowly and you can hear the valve stay open and then it runs rich and risks bore wash.
Flames from exhaust - when the exhaust gas is hot ie. Leaner you get flames on gearchange, usually over fueling gives pops and bangs but rarely flames as the exhaust gas is cooled by the extra fuel, remove the transient fuelling and on gearchange you will often see a pop of flame along with a jolt due to a lean spot on gearchange.
Rally cars run more torque due to having to run a restrictor in the inlet and make high bhp impossible so all you can get is torque. Always interesting to do with and without restrictor maps so owner can do both evens with and without. Same torque but 40bhp more and believe me quicker with extra 40bhp.
Ecutek remap is 550+vat with free dyno time and printouts if you go to the right place. I am not aware of anyone charging 700+vat.
Simon
Dump to atmpsphere dump valve - where does the air on the original go? Into the inlet pipe, the throttle is shut so it cannot enter the engine on a gearchange same as with atmospheric dump valve, no dump valve, recirculate dumpvalve. Due to overrun cut off there is no fuel injected on overrun so no bore wash at this point.
Dump to atmosphere working perfectly causes no issue, but they do often open on high speed cruise, full throttle and ease off throttle slowly and you can hear the valve stay open and then it runs rich and risks bore wash.
Flames from exhaust - when the exhaust gas is hot ie. Leaner you get flames on gearchange, usually over fueling gives pops and bangs but rarely flames as the exhaust gas is cooled by the extra fuel, remove the transient fuelling and on gearchange you will often see a pop of flame along with a jolt due to a lean spot on gearchange.
Rally cars run more torque due to having to run a restrictor in the inlet and make high bhp impossible so all you can get is torque. Always interesting to do with and without restrictor maps so owner can do both evens with and without. Same torque but 40bhp more and believe me quicker with extra 40bhp.
Ecutek remap is 550+vat with free dyno time and printouts if you go to the right place
. I am not aware of anyone charging 700+vat. Simon
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