Discuss - Does BMW make decent driving cars any more?
Discussion
Does BMW actually make interesting cars any more? Whilst they are reasonable to drive they do not drive a lot better than key rivals if at all (think the latest Mercs and Jags do a better job).
The M Cars are good (1M particularly), but even the M3 is not much better than the competition. And I would prefer a CSL or E46 CS to the current car.
Styling is average too. A long way from the good old days of the 70s-90s..
We have a new 330D - decent car but does it excite me? No. It is a tool and no more. Is BMW living on its reputation?
The M Cars are good (1M particularly), but even the M3 is not much better than the competition. And I would prefer a CSL or E46 CS to the current car.
Styling is average too. A long way from the good old days of the 70s-90s..
We have a new 330D - decent car but does it excite me? No. It is a tool and no more. Is BMW living on its reputation?
I'm sure they have both.
Modern cars including BMW's tend to do everything so well they are perceived to "lack character".
This was my criticism of my 2010 635D that I ran for a year. It did everything without fault but proved somewhat forgettable. Not a bad car, just not one that you would drive for the hell of it.
Dare say the M cars are very different!
Likewise your rep-special 3 series are there to do a job, munch miles at low cost. In that context they are very very good.
Modern cars including BMW's tend to do everything so well they are perceived to "lack character".
This was my criticism of my 2010 635D that I ran for a year. It did everything without fault but proved somewhat forgettable. Not a bad car, just not one that you would drive for the hell of it.
Dare say the M cars are very different!
Likewise your rep-special 3 series are there to do a job, munch miles at low cost. In that context they are very very good.
I may be blinkered here but try driving a current model A4 and E90 3 series back to back then ask this question
I did this on Saturday and I actually hated the A4, it was god awful, i couldn't praise one single thing about it, it was a relief to get back into my E91
FWIW I think BMW do make a better driving product than their rivals, I haven't driven a Merc nor a Jag that I have warmed to
I did this on Saturday and I actually hated the A4, it was god awful, i couldn't praise one single thing about it, it was a relief to get back into my E91
FWIW I think BMW do make a better driving product than their rivals, I haven't driven a Merc nor a Jag that I have warmed to
I would hope that BMWs are better to drive than Audis - they are some of the dullest cars around!
But whilst they are not bad, they are not class leading and for me, fail to excite. The X1 is ugly and miserable. As is the X6, 5 GT and new 6. The current 5 and 7 are technologically advanced but not great to drive.
I do think the 1 and 3 are pretty good for what they are (did enjoy thrashing a 1 series I had a while back) but "the Ultimate driving machine" tag seems a bit optimistic! As does this joy thing they seem to be banging on about of late.
I do like our 330D (though it is my mum's) and seems well suited for her needs of comfort and reliability. But I personally would be pretty disappointed if i had shelled out a large wad of cash on a new Beemer as my sole form of transport..
But whilst they are not bad, they are not class leading and for me, fail to excite. The X1 is ugly and miserable. As is the X6, 5 GT and new 6. The current 5 and 7 are technologically advanced but not great to drive.
I do think the 1 and 3 are pretty good for what they are (did enjoy thrashing a 1 series I had a while back) but "the Ultimate driving machine" tag seems a bit optimistic! As does this joy thing they seem to be banging on about of late.
I do like our 330D (though it is my mum's) and seems well suited for her needs of comfort and reliability. But I personally would be pretty disappointed if i had shelled out a large wad of cash on a new Beemer as my sole form of transport..
AtomMan said:
I would hope that BMWs are better to drive than Audis - they are some of the dullest cars around!
But whilst they are not bad, they are not class leading and for me, fail to excite. The X1 is ugly and miserable. As is the X6, 5 GT and new 6. The current 5 and 7 are technologically advanced but not great to drive.
I do think the 1 and 3 are pretty good for what they are (did enjoy thrashing a 1 series I had a while back) but "the Ultimate driving machine" tag seems a bit optimistic! As does this joy thing they seem to be banging on about of late.
I do like our 330D (though it is my mum's) and seems well suited for her needs of comfort and reliability. But I personally would be pretty disappointed if i had shelled out a large wad of cash on a new Beemer as my sole form of transport..
We bought a new F11 and after 10 weeks it is gone, it was a work horse and still found it seriously boring, dumbed down to fBut whilst they are not bad, they are not class leading and for me, fail to excite. The X1 is ugly and miserable. As is the X6, 5 GT and new 6. The current 5 and 7 are technologically advanced but not great to drive.
I do think the 1 and 3 are pretty good for what they are (did enjoy thrashing a 1 series I had a while back) but "the Ultimate driving machine" tag seems a bit optimistic! As does this joy thing they seem to be banging on about of late.
I do like our 330D (though it is my mum's) and seems well suited for her needs of comfort and reliability. But I personally would be pretty disappointed if i had shelled out a large wad of cash on a new Beemer as my sole form of transport..
k. Swapped it for a 5 GT, much more "BMW' like.
Looks are all personal, and nothing to do with how they feel, though the F11 looked great, but after driving it and finding it boring to drive then found it boring to look at too.
And I love the look of the X1, in dark colours with the X-Line pack anyway.
And we ended up buying one of them too a couple of weeks back and go nothing but praise for it.
My main car is an E320cdi estate, and personally I find it a more enjoyable car then my 535d touring was, but then I expect different things from it, and expectation is half of it imho.
The E87 (1-Series) is the new E36. IMO, naturally.
The E46 went too far towards comfort; the E87 has captured the well-balanced 'sports saloon' ethos again. Another year or two and they'll be at the right price for hobbyists to strip 'em, bolt on aftermarket suspension and they'll be appearing regularly on trackdays.
The E46 went too far towards comfort; the E87 has captured the well-balanced 'sports saloon' ethos again. Another year or two and they'll be at the right price for hobbyists to strip 'em, bolt on aftermarket suspension and they'll be appearing regularly on trackdays.
martin mrt said:
So what in each of their classes drives better?
The fact that the X1 isn't a great looker nor the X6 doesnt bear much on the topic here?
True, I was talking about the pure driving element, however a great car has to appeal to all senses and quite frankly I feel that many BMWs don't appeal to any.The fact that the X1 isn't a great looker nor the X6 doesnt bear much on the topic here?
As for what drives better, I am not going to go into all of them now but I would expect a BMW to be much better than the rest but don't think they are or have been for many years unfortunately.
I would prefer to drive an XF over a 5 and think the C Class runs the 3 rather too close...Or maybe the competition has just caught up and in a number of instances bettered BMWs offering.
They do sell well and if they can get away with selling cars the way they are, why bother to incur the expense of creating great cars?
I'm afraid that the "Ultimate Driving Machine" is no more. BMW are now aiming at far more sales and in fact the 3-Series now outsells the Ford Mondeo so the BMW brand has also lost its exclusivity.
The cars are now designed to satisfy the requirements of the Marketing and Accounts dept and are no longer built with the passion of the previous cars.
Everyone has their opinions on the looks of the new cars but that is irrelevant on the driving experience. I feel the need to add more and more gadgets to satisfy buyer expectations and the ride quality to satisfy the bulk of the motoring public has softened the cars. I would like to return to the base car and you add the extras you want so the car could be ordered more specific to the owner.
I for one as an enthusiast know to turn my lights on when its dark, use the wipers in the rain and use buttons to set the radio and heater. The last thing I want is i-drive complicating my operation of the car. No need for sat nav anymore, its on most mobile phones.
This has also led to the horrific depreciation of the higher model cars as the costs to keep all this unneccessary jumble working escalates, this makes the cars almost disposable after 5 years should they develop a major fault.
Service intervals are deliberately extended to increase wear on the car and reduce costs for the new car buyer, increasing the sales of parts to the later owners. Quality is poorer (coil springs, suspension bushes, camchains/tensioners, Valvetronic heads etc) to generate workshop and aftermarket sales.
All this however is now starting to see the dealers suffer as the cars are only returned for remedial work under warranty and forcing their labour rates up. My local dealer OUTSIDE the M25 is now £155.00 + VAT per hour and they are struggling with no work apart from non paying warranty work. The aftermarket has now got 3 years from release of the cars to identify the faults and manufacture replacement parts and thats where the work is now going.
Owners are taking the cars in for the minimum service work required to "stamp the book" then getting all/any other work supposedly required done elsewhere.
I think BMW and most of the other manufacturers have shot themselves in the foot.
I digressed slightly so apologies for that!
8Tech.
The cars are now designed to satisfy the requirements of the Marketing and Accounts dept and are no longer built with the passion of the previous cars.
Everyone has their opinions on the looks of the new cars but that is irrelevant on the driving experience. I feel the need to add more and more gadgets to satisfy buyer expectations and the ride quality to satisfy the bulk of the motoring public has softened the cars. I would like to return to the base car and you add the extras you want so the car could be ordered more specific to the owner.
I for one as an enthusiast know to turn my lights on when its dark, use the wipers in the rain and use buttons to set the radio and heater. The last thing I want is i-drive complicating my operation of the car. No need for sat nav anymore, its on most mobile phones.
This has also led to the horrific depreciation of the higher model cars as the costs to keep all this unneccessary jumble working escalates, this makes the cars almost disposable after 5 years should they develop a major fault.
Service intervals are deliberately extended to increase wear on the car and reduce costs for the new car buyer, increasing the sales of parts to the later owners. Quality is poorer (coil springs, suspension bushes, camchains/tensioners, Valvetronic heads etc) to generate workshop and aftermarket sales.
All this however is now starting to see the dealers suffer as the cars are only returned for remedial work under warranty and forcing their labour rates up. My local dealer OUTSIDE the M25 is now £155.00 + VAT per hour and they are struggling with no work apart from non paying warranty work. The aftermarket has now got 3 years from release of the cars to identify the faults and manufacture replacement parts and thats where the work is now going.
Owners are taking the cars in for the minimum service work required to "stamp the book" then getting all/any other work supposedly required done elsewhere.
I think BMW and most of the other manufacturers have shot themselves in the foot.
I digressed slightly so apologies for that!
8Tech.
driver67 said:
130i is an excellent drivers car.
Agreed, with normal rubber. Most new BMW's come with runflats, kills the ride/handling/nvh. I've just had a very fast blat back from Norfolk on a quiet A10 in my tractor on normal tyres, it was enjoyable. Wouldn't get thatin the equivalent Audi, maybe in a C class.I'm really not sure BMW do. If they did, I would buy one; but beyond the E39 I reallly haven't actually enjoyed anything I've tried worth a damn. Certainly not worth the £35K+ worth a damn I'd have to spend to get the kind of shove I'd like.
And yes, I've been similarly unimpressed with the obvious other German equivalents.
And as for the s/hand 'have an E60 M5 for £10-15K' idea - no, heck no way. It does only one thing well; for everything else... I'l keep my Mastercard balance at zero, thanks. Unimpressed in a sad way.
And yes, I've been similarly unimpressed with the obvious other German equivalents.
And as for the s/hand 'have an E60 M5 for £10-15K' idea - no, heck no way. It does only one thing well; for everything else... I'l keep my Mastercard balance at zero, thanks. Unimpressed in a sad way.
BMW are quite clearly positioning their cars to appeal to a broader audience rather than the enthusiast driver...with the F11 5 series being a prime example of that. They are after all in the game of selling as many cars as possible....volume of sales is absolutely key to BMW's ability to survive as an independent manufacturer. Obviously they will still try and make the M/// cars great drivers car.
Having sad that given the current bloated weight of cars with the demands of safety equipment and ever more gadgetry I think the cars currently on the market will always struggle to be genuine drivers cars. Given the new and necessary focus on emissions and economy I suspect in ten years time we'll be driving much lighter cars which will be that much better to drive. Cars with current engine outputs but 10 to 20% lighter could make great drivers cars....
Having sad that given the current bloated weight of cars with the demands of safety equipment and ever more gadgetry I think the cars currently on the market will always struggle to be genuine drivers cars. Given the new and necessary focus on emissions and economy I suspect in ten years time we'll be driving much lighter cars which will be that much better to drive. Cars with current engine outputs but 10 to 20% lighter could make great drivers cars....
BMW make a wide enough range cars that they can cater for the enthusiast driver, the rep mobile driver, the shopping run mum, drug buggy, golf club poser and the exec' cruiser.
And if you think that this is diluting the marque, just remember that it wasn't so long ago Ford wanted to buy them, think that might have blunted the driving machine a bit.
And if you think that this is diluting the marque, just remember that it wasn't so long ago Ford wanted to buy them, think that might have blunted the driving machine a bit.
8Tech said:
I'm afraid that the "Ultimate Driving Machine" is no more. BMW are now aiming at far more sales and in fact the 3-Series now outsells the Ford Mondeo so the BMW brand has also lost its exclusivity.
Yes the 3 series sells well, but BMW sells plentyof other cars, 1, 5, 6, 7, 8 etc etc.
Don't be taken in by the results of the marketing dept.
Drive the cars and form your own opinion.
8Tech said:
Service intervals are deliberately extended to increase wear on the car ...
My local dealer OUTSIDE the M25 is now £155.00 + VAT per hour and they are struggling with no work apart from non paying warranty work.
I think I'm right in saying you can't have your cake My local dealer OUTSIDE the M25 is now £155.00 + VAT per hour and they are struggling with no work apart from non paying warranty work.
and eat it.
Either the cars break down a lot and so the dealers
are busy OR the cars are pretty reliable and the dealers
don't seem them very often apart from routine servicing.
8Tech said:
I think BMW and most of the other manufacturers have shot themselves in the foot.
Fair opinion - should they form an orderly queueat your door to find out how to do it right ? ;->
8Tech said:
I'm afraid that the "Ultimate Driving Machine" is no more. BMW are now aiming at far more sales and in fact the 3-Series now outsells the Ford Mondeo so the BMW brand has also lost its exclusivity.
With respect, bks, BMW are just moving with the times, the 1 series is one of the sweetest handling cars around in that sector with divine steering, I only had the 120d and can only imagine what the 1M must be like. 'BMW are now aiming at far more sales' wtf where they doing before? running a charity?
Apache said:
With respect, bks, BMW are just moving with the times, the 1 series is one of the sweetest handling cars around in that sector with divine steering, I only had the 120d and can only imagine what the 1M must be like.
'BMW are now aiming at far more sales' wtf where they doing before? running a charity?
If your idea of quality is a plastic 1-Series diesel, an excuse of a car to fit a BMW badge to, than you are poorly positioned to comment on the quality of cars such as the E39 or E30 of recent times. I have and still owned numerous BMW's and drive all variants almost daily and I can tell you, the cars are getting less involving, less fun and less reliable.ks, BMW are just moving with the times, the 1 series is one of the sweetest handling cars around in that sector with divine steering, I only had the 120d and can only imagine what the 1M must be like. 'BMW are now aiming at far more sales' wtf where they doing before? running a charity?
No, not running a charity, producing high quality cars at a premium price. That may not have been a great solution to profits but thats not the discussion here.
dcb said:
8Tech said:
I'm afraid that the "Ultimate Driving Machine" is no more. BMW are now aiming at far more sales and in fact the 3-Series now outsells the Ford Mondeo so the BMW brand has also lost its exclusivity.
Yes the 3 series sells well, but BMW sells plentyof other cars, 1, 5, 6, 7, 8 etc etc.
Don't be taken in by the results of the marketing dept.
Drive the cars and form your own opinion.
My point exactly, selling in huge numbers dilutes the cars quality and the brand exclusivity. You no longer get the type of ownership that takes care of their cars, and this means there are cheapskates now buying the cars, not servicing them or looking after them and this reduces the overall value of all the cars when in the used car market.
8Tech said:
Service intervals are deliberately extended to increase wear on the car ...
My local dealer OUTSIDE the M25 is now £155.00 + VAT per hour and they are struggling with no work apart from non paying warranty work.
I think I'm right in saying you can't have your cake My local dealer OUTSIDE the M25 is now £155.00 + VAT per hour and they are struggling with no work apart from non paying warranty work.
and eat it.
Either the cars break down a lot and so the dealers
are busy OR the cars are pretty reliable and the dealers
don't seem them very often apart from routine servicing.
We are talking service interval periods here extended to reduce first owner running costs. Longlife oils might stay in grade longer but they still get contaminated increasing wear. Lifetime oils are another joke, BMW state lifetime fill on some applications because their concern is the lifetime of the first owner having the car and not getting a bill to replace it. The gearbox manufacturer stipulates oil and filter changes at around 50,000m. Thats also a lot cheaper than a replacement transmission.
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