xDrive verses 2WD - 3 series

[lambo911]

I thought I’d start a bit of a debate on the 4wd v 2wd question and try to offer my thoughts about the two approaches and explain why I went for the xDrive version of this model (330d M Sport Touring with Adaptive suspension, Variable Sports Steering and M Sport + pack) and why I’m now an advocate for AWD.

F31 Touring xDrive verses RWD

Cons
1. Heavier
2. Uses more fuel
3. Uses standard suspension even for M Sport version
4. Ride height looks too high
5. Costs more new, could cost more to maintain over time
6. Perceived muted driving experience

Pros
1. Faster 0-60 for the 330d
2. Quicker under damp/wet conditions
3. Generally safer
4. Should have a better residual the RWD
5. It doesn’t act like a 4wd car
6. Able to go places the RWD can’t – muddy fields, snow etc

The general perception of BMW is that they produce well-made finely balanced drivers cars which is favoured by sporting drivers. In reality they are mainly bought by people that either a) think they are sporty drivers or b) view the BMW brand as a status symbol. They are also the cars which along with Mercedes always star in any news report where snow and ice are causing traffic problems.

My BMW is used by my wife on a day to day basis ferrying our 3 year old around and it’s also used for longer trips at the weekends etc. when I take the wheel. I’ve done circuit racing for 20 years (Porsche mainly) so I have big expectations on a cars handling and when I drive it I drive the car hard and use all its performance.

When deciding between the two my thought process was;
1. Car would be used by my missis who has not driving talent at all so for a performance car traction and surefootedness were important
2. Point to point the car would be quicker than a RWD version
3. I’d be able to use more of the performance more of the time because the traction control won’t need to intervene
4. I’m never going to track the car and even if I did I wouldn’t want to drive it like they do on Top Gear (does anyone?)
5. If the weather does get bad then hopefully the car won’t get stuck

I’ve now had the car for 2 months and I’m confident I’ve made the right decision because;
1. Traction is amazing, I rarely feel the traction control cutting in. in the wet it will still do 0-60 in just over 5 seconds.
2. I can use all the power, all the time
3. I’ve had 4wd cars before (Impreza Turbo) and they tend to do a four wheel skate across the road when you break traction however in the BMW the rear still steps out before the stability control steps in.
4. The adaptive suspension is amazing, giving a comfortable ride usually then firming up automatically when it needs to.
5. Finally, the wife hasn’t complained once about it being too fast or scary !

At the end of the day it's personal choice but for a powerful family wagon, I think 4wd is a no brainer. If it's a coupe belonging to a single guy and they are an exceptional driver then perhaps the 2wd makes sense....

Edited by lambo911 on Monday 13th January 15:58

[M3greg]

Good analysis. If they did an X-drive 328i I'd have probably gone for that too. Just wish they could put the lower suspension on.

[pedrotunes]

Agreed, good post.

I have a 330d X Drive at the moment and echo the comments. Doesn't feel like a typical 4WD saloon, and has performed excellently in all the recent wet weather, no loss of traction and very quick.

Agreed with the ride height, compared with a RWD on the M Sport suspension it does look a tad too high, however I do find the ride pretty good. Mine is also on 19s with the + pack.

[nickfrog]

lambo911 said:

If it's a coupe belonging to a single guy and they are an exceptional driver then perhaps the 2wd makes sense....

I totally understand the reasons for your choice. I however think the above is quite an exaggeration.

Modern BMWs handling is very very user friendly, they're set up to understeer through modest front camber and big rear tyres. It really doesn't take much skill NOT to crash one, and I promise you my wife is a carp driver but she never got the TC light on my 260ps car, albeit a more progressive and "heavy boot friendlier" engine than a turbo petrol or diesel. Besides, if you indeed use all the lateral grip, 2wd or 4wd, there's no adhesion left for traction anyway, by definition.

I am really surprised you can use all the power all of the time on the public road, irrespective of conditions. Are you saying you're at 10/10ths ? Do you still have a driving licence ? ;-)

Edited by nickfrog on Monday 13th January 22:22

[4rephill]

lambo911 said:

......Pros

6. Able to go places the RWD can’t – muddy fields, snow etc

So it's your belief that on snow, an X-Drive on four summer tyres is automatically going to be better than a 2WD wearing four winter tyres?

lambo911 said:

They are also the cars which along with Mercedes always star in any news report where snow and ice are causing traffic problems.

And how many of these cars in the news reports causing traffic problems are still fitted with summer tyres?

Parts of your argument are flawed because they do not allow for all of the viable parameters involved!

In your driving on snow example, chances are that on snow, an X-Drive with four summer tyres fitted is simply going to sit there spinning all four wheels and struggle to get anywhere, whilst a 2WD on the same surface, fitted with proper winter tyres, will struggle a lot less!

Put them both on winter tyres and the X-drive will be easier to drive, but that doesn't automatically mean the 2WD will be impossible to drive!

There are plenty of drivers in Germany and all around the Scandinavian countries who get around in their 2WD Mercedes and BMW's on ice and snow with no problems whatsoever! - Why?: Because they have the correct tyres fitted for the conditions!

[lambo911]

nickfrog said:

I totally understand the reasons for your choice. I however think the above is quite an exaggeration.

I was being flippant to try and get a bit of a reaction but I was trying to make a point in that only a small number of BMW drivers can really utilise the full potential of its rear wheel drive characteristics. And generally you wouldn't do it with a girlfriend/wife in the car because they'll be shouting at you to slow down as they'll be complaining they are feeling sick......

Regarding using the full power all the time, I wasn't saying that I have my foot planted wherever I go but that I don't really have to worry (too much) about applying full throttle because of the way the car transmits the power to the road. I've been driving 911's for the last 20 years including a GT3 (all pre traction control) and throttle control and the seat of the pants feeling are absolutely key to driving them quickly and the car is totally on the edge. You could argue that BMW have lost this aspect which is a bad thing however now anyone can drive one and I think that’s a good thing, it’s a quick family car and needs to be safe and that’s why I trust my wife to drive it. The 2WD version is also safe but the xDrive moreso.

4rephill said:

And how many of these cars in the news reports causing traffic problems are still fitted with summer tyres?

True, and I still expect the xDrive to suffer traction problems, but how many people actually have a set of wheels with winter tyres? A tiny proportion and I can’t see that changing in the future. On regular tyres the xdrive will get the car places the RWD can’t and for me that’s good enough. I have a Navara pickup if it get’s really bad so I’ve got my bases covered.

[JNW1]

I do see the potential benefits of four-wheel drive but the question is whether enough of your driving is done in conditions that make it worthwhile; put another way, if you don't see the traction control light very often in your rear-drive BMW what advantage does four-wheel drive give you? You could just end-up with the disadvantage of the inferior fuel consumption and extra weight all of the time in order to gain a traction advantage that you exploit for only a small percentage of the time. I'd consider an X-drive F31 but I certainly wouldn't regard four-wheel drive as essential given how I drive and where I do my driving!

[anonymous-user]

lambo911 said:

nickfrog said:

I totally understand the reasons for your choice. I however think the above is quite an exaggeration.

I was being flippant to try and get a bit of a reaction but I was trying to make a point in that only a small number of BMW drivers can really utilise the full potential of its rear wheel drive characteristics. And generally you wouldn't do it with a girlfriend/wife in the car because they'll be shouting at you to slow down as they'll be complaining they are feeling sick......

Regarding using the full power all the time, I wasn't saying that I have my foot planted wherever I go but that I don't really have to worry (too much) about applying full throttle because of the way the car transmits the power to the road. I've been driving 911's for the last 20 years including a GT3 (all pre traction control) and throttle control and the seat of the pants feeling are absolutely key to driving them quickly and the car is totally on the edge. You could argue that BMW have lost this aspect which is a bad thing however now anyone can drive one and I think that’s a good thing, it’s a quick family car and needs to be safe and that’s why I trust my wife to drive it. The 2WD version is also safe but the xDrive moreso.

4rephill said:

And how many of these cars in the news reports causing traffic problems are still fitted with summer tyres?

True, and I still expect the xDrive to suffer traction problems, but how many people actually have a set of wheels with winter tyres? A tiny proportion and I can’t see that changing in the future. On regular tyres the xdrive will get the car places the RWD can’t and for me that’s good enough. I have a Navara pickup if it get’s really bad so I’ve got my bases covered.

I think you're wrong about winter tyres. Having had a set on my VW CC over the winter since 2010, I am quite convinced of their benefits. Never had a moments concern, never stuck etc. (I appreciate a CC on summer tyres will be better than a RWD BMW in the first place).

Last month I order a 530D which should arrive sometime next month. With it I have another set of alloys with winter tyres coming. At less than £1500 for the set, that's a no brainer for me and it seems it's becoming quite common with cars that are actually bought as opposed to hired.

We'll never know but I would think there'll be more BMWs with winter tyres than there will be 4WD in the future. It makes sense on so many levels. (Unless you really can't trust the missus!)

[JNW1]

REALIST123 said:

I think you're wrong about winter tyres. Having had a set on my VW CC over the winter since 2010, I am quite convinced of their benefits. Never had a moments concern, never stuck etc. (I appreciate a CC on summer tyres will be better than a RWD BMW in the first place).

Last month I order a 530D which should arrive sometime next month. With it I have another set of alloys with winter tyres coming. At less than £1500 for the set, that's a no brainer for me and it seems it's becoming quite common with cars that are actually bought as opposed to hired.

We'll never know but I would think there'll be more BMWs with winter tyres than there will be 4WD in the future. It makes sense on so many levels. (Unless you really can't trust the missus!)

To be fair to Lambo I don't think he was questioning the merits of winter tyres, I think he was more suggesting that on summer tyres (which is what most people use) the X-drive would be able to keep going in places where a rear-drive BMW couldn't. Hard to disagree with that but equally I take your point that a rear-drive BMW on winters will almost certainly perform better on snow that an X-drive on summers!

[M3greg]

I used to have great fun in a 3.0d X5 coming out of the office - the x-drive meant I could boot it out sideways and when the camber changed it would just grip and rocket (relatively) off down the dual carriageway.

I like RWD though, and 4WD. Not so keen of FWD so try to avoid that. I will get some winters at some point, but haven't had a problem on the summers yet in the 328i RWD. No snow though yet.

[anonymous-user]

JNW1 said:

REALIST123 said:

I think you're wrong about winter tyres. Having had a set on my VW CC over the winter since 2010, I am quite convinced of their benefits. Never had a moments concern, never stuck etc. (I appreciate a CC on summer tyres will be better than a RWD BMW in the first place).

Last month I order a 530D which should arrive sometime next month. With it I have another set of alloys with winter tyres coming. At less than £1500 for the set, that's a no brainer for me and it seems it's becoming quite common with cars that are actually bought as opposed to hired.

We'll never know but I would think there'll be more BMWs with winter tyres than there will be 4WD in the future. It makes sense on so many levels. (Unless you really can't trust the missus!)

To be fair to Lambo I don't think he was questioning the merits of winter tyres, I think he was more suggesting that on summer tyres (which is what most people use) the X-drive would be able to keep going in places where a rear-drive BMW couldn't. Hard to disagree with that but equally I take your point that a rear-drive BMW on winters will almost certainly perform better on snow that an X-drive on summers!

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was only saying I thought he was wrong about there only being a tiny proportion on winters and that not changing, which I feel it will do. My feeling is that over the last few years, a lot more winters are being sold. Most major manufacturers now prominently market spare sets of rims and tyres, which didn't happen a few years ago. IMO.

[JNW1]

REALIST123 said:

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was only saying I thought he was wrong about there only being a tiny proportion on winters and that not changing, which I feel it will do. My feeling is that over the last few years, a lot more winters are being sold. Most major manufacturers now prominently market spare sets of rims and tyres, which didn't happen a few years ago. IMO.

I'm sure that, following the bad winter in 2010, there's been a significant increase in the proportion of people using winter tyres. However, that usage was starting from a very low base and personally I'd still be very surprised if the number of cars fitted with winter tyres amounts to more than 10% of all cars on the road. That proportion may be higher amongst relatively affluent owners of newish BMW's but the reality is that many people simply can't afford a second set of wheels and tyres (and I suspect a lot of owners of older BMW's may fall into that category).

[msej449]

I see this AWD vs 2WD+Winter Tyres argument a lot and I think it confuses the arguments for winter tyres and for All-wheel Drive (AWD). We have two cars and both get shod in winter tyres in the winter. For the little car, the wheels take winters, so this basically doesn't cost me anything, as the unused tyres sit in the garage. For the BMW, given I'm spending List £47K, another £1200 for winter wheels and tyres is something that seems in proportion to the capital cost, given their superiority even in a standard UK winter (it's nothing to do with snow, 'though that's a benefit - it's to do with commuting on wet/cold roads when the temperature is under 7C).

I appreciate that for people who basically leave their car in the garage if it's snowing / commute on the train / etc then the benefit of winters may well not justify the extra cost. But it's incontrovertible that winters are better in winter. No one is arguing with that - although they may opt not to use them if they can't afford or don't need to.

I went for xDrive because I basically missed the 'neutral' handling I had on my 3.0L V6 Jaguar X-Type. I've had FWD and RWD, and done track driving, and I can handle both oversteer and understeer. But on public roads, in a performance car, for much of the UK's wet and cold winters, I just prefer the way that AWD handles in terms of traction and the driving line. So I have both xDrive and winters on my 330d Touring.

In the UK, like the USA, BMW has traditionally tried to persuade potential customers that RWD is a 'pure' form of driving, because they simply didn't ship AWD models. Ditto Mercedes. This was the only way to compete with Audi Quattro. Rather like their traditional side-swipes at hatchbacks: until, that is, they started selling the GTs. Similarly, now that they do sell AWD in the UK, they have to quietly do a U-turn.

I know that mine is only a particular viewpoint, but I can't see the point of opting for a new RWD or FWD performance car when an AWD is available (and I can afford it). I don't want to over/understeer on public roads. But I know that many people don't agree.

[chiark]

Good thread. There's no right or wrong answer , only what works best for your own individual situation.
I'm waiting on an F31 330D RWD to get here from Munich - it was built last week . I don't think I'm a driving god, but I don't see the need for AWD. I've had 2 Imprezas, and 2 330s (yeah, I'm boring, but I like what I like) and this time around I had the choice of AWD but decided not to take it. The OP eloquently put the arguments for/against, but for me I valued the weight saving, etc, above the very limited times I'd benefit from it.

I had winter tyres on my E91, and on my 996 911: those both got anywhere, and both drove past 4x4s that were stuck in the snow... What converted me was working for a Finnish company for 5 years, as 50% of taxis in Helsinki are E class mercs with winter rubber on - not studded tyres, just winter cut & compound...

You pays yer money, and takes yer choice. By gum we're privileged to be having this discussion!

[JNW1]

Saw a new 335d coupe at a local dealer yesterday and the higher ride height that goes with the X-drive was really quite noticeable. I've no doubt it will drive well but combined with the "Superman" colour combination of Estoril Blue and red leather the overall visual effect of this particular car was like something off a children's cartoon IMO......

[GBR1]

I agree with the winter tyres thing and of course its true that a 2WD on winters will be safer than a 4WD on summers in the snow as the car can stop better for one.

I just got an X Drive and could have had a RWD, my reasons were that in my old 116i (F21) I had the traction light on all the time pulling out of junctions in the wet. I live in the country so different reasons to those who live in the city, I even had my 116i stuck 5/6 times this winter where I had to pull over on a single lane road on to the small passing lanes which have turned to mud this winter, I pull over into these most days!

I don't want a conventional 4X4 and this is a good compromise. Basically in the wet (we live in England) the car is more sure footed than a RWD car..

GBR1

[aberdeeneuan]

I've had a few BMW RWD (currently have a F31) and an A4 quattro. Where the quattro surprised me was on the motorway in horrid wet conditions. It always felt sure footed, through any kind of standing or run off water it was solid, whereas the BMWs you would be anxious about what was perhaps about to happen. It was great in the snow, but I tend to leave the BMW at home when it snows (all 5 days in the 18 months I've had it). As an all round family car, I get why people like quattro/xDrive for it's all year ability.

I'm currently weighing up my next car. If I had free choice, the 330d xDrive would be a no brainer, but not because of it's snow ability. As it is, the tax impact of it on my company scheme mean will likely mean I don't. Time will tell.

[lambo911]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Of course one should only drive within the conditions, I'm not advocating driving in a reckless way at all. But we all know roads where(in the right conditions) you can pretty much do whatever speed you want.

It's the surefootedness of 4WD that is the key point, 2WD will rely on the traction control more to keep it in check, which will blunt it's abilities.

[msej449]

On the one hand, you get the proposition that RWD is some sort of sporty ideal and reference to RWD design on F1, most track racing cars, most sports roadsters and most supercars. Then you get the observation that road driving is mostly at relatively low speeds, in mainstream road cars, in the dry, not in snow - and so RWD oversteering isn't an issue unless you're a Bad Driver. Sooner or later, someone also makes the irrelevant observation that they'd "rather have a RWD with winters than an xDrive on summers" when no one is suggesting that AWD obviates the value of winters. Then there's the inconsistency that while RWD proponents accept the superiority of AWD for straight line acceleration, this is classed as some sort of uncommon activity: as if overtaking wasn't a case in point.

What AWD proponents are usually arguing is that (i) they have a relatively high-performance vehicle and (ii) a lot of their driving is in the wet. So this alone swings them away from an oversteering RWD towards a neutral steering AWD. If proponents do a lot of miles and overtaking, they may also (iii) feel that AWD acceleration is better and more stable, especially in the wet. Secondarily, there's (iv) the plus that AWD will be better in snow than RWD (when both are shod with the same tyre type).

RWD induces oversteer and it's this that gives the performance RWD its sporty character. I can understand that an AWD by comparison is relatively boring, if boring means predictable and manageable. With 254BHP on tap, AWD makes a positive contribution to my wet drives. In the dry, I prefer the handling.

But I appreciate that for someone who leaves their car in the garage if things look dodgy, switches to winter tyres as appropriate, never pushes the vehicle and rarely misjudges, then RWD is all that's needed. What I don't accept is that if I'm in the 'sporty' driving situation, then RWD is better. For me, that's exactly when I want to be in an AWD.

[nickfrog]

msej449 said:

RWD induces oversteer and it's this that gives the performance RWD its sporty character. I can understand that an AWD by comparison is relatively boring, if boring means predictable and manageable. With 254BHP on tap, AWD makes a positive contribution to my wet drives. In the dry, I prefer the handling.

But I appreciate that for someone who leaves their car in the garage if things look dodgy, switches to winter tyres as appropriate, never pushes the vehicle and rarely misjudges, then RWD is all that's needed. What I don't accept is that if I'm in the 'sporty' driving situation, then RWD is better. For me, that's exactly when I want to be in an AWD.

I can see where you're coming from. My views and experience are quite literally the opposite though:

- oversteer or understeer is not necessarily linked to what wheels are driven. Most RWD cars are set up to be inherently understeery, particularly BMWs, their lateral acceleration characteristics mean that the front will usually lose adhesion first in a steady state throttle position.

- What you're saying is that traction oversteer can be an issue. And you're quite right. Personally, that's the primary reason why I prefer RWD. I like to do my own throttle modulation, it's the essence of driving for me. And however slow that makes me.

- On the other hand, if one is after a safe point and squirt and uses the throttle as an on/off switch, AWD is perfect.

- predictability : I find RWD far more predictable. I know precisely what is going to happen if I ask a rear loaded tyre to also apply too much longitudinal force. I'll probably lose rear adhesion and can safely predict that / react accordingly. On the other hand, if I do the same thing in a AWD car with all 4 tyres loaded to their max lat acceleration leaving no spare tractive adhesion, I have NO IDEA if the front or the rear or both axles are going to slide first, not great.

- for the record, I drive a 260ps RWD BMW and I can honestly say that I only really enjoy it in the wet on the road. It's far too tractable in the dry to generate any excitement as sane speeds. And don't get me wrong, I don't drift nor purposely power slide but the car is simply much more lively in the wet, without ever being unsafe. I would call my car absolutely benign to drive in the wet, providing one uses smooth enough input (which seems to have become the exception rather than the norm).

- sportyness. I genuinely don't know what that means but the only sport I associate with cars is motorsport / track work. And on a typical track day, RWD seem to be the norm compared to AWD, maybe 20 to 1. An uncorrupted front end, better balance, less tranny losses and less weight are massive pluses for a "sporty" car.

- I don't believe the typical RWD driver that you describe really exists, I would have associated the description that you make to a AWD road driver who needs a (perceived) safety net.

Edited by nickfrog on Friday 14th March 01:54