E46 Subframe issue, is it across entire model range?
Discussion
I've read this is a problem for M3's, but is it across all E46 ranges, models, engines, i.e. saloons, coupe, convertibles, tourings etc.?
Quick google and Redish do a kit but at £1.4k+VAT!
I also read that those under 100k and under 10 years if lucky had it repaired by BMW under goodwill, but many e46's are becoming above 10years+ now, so if the owner at the time didn't know about it, many E46 would be not repaired?
Was potentially thinking of an early facelift e46 convertible, but with this issue puts me off somewhat.
Quick google and Redish do a kit but at £1.4k+VAT!
I also read that those under 100k and under 10 years if lucky had it repaired by BMW under goodwill, but many e46's are becoming above 10years+ now, so if the owner at the time didn't know about it, many E46 would be not repaired?
Was potentially thinking of an early facelift e46 convertible, but with this issue puts me off somewhat.
Yes, it can happen to any E46 (saloon or coupe, at least, not sure about the estate). Likely to be more common on more powerful models though.
Pretty much every car has got some achilles heel like this, so it's just a question of checking out the car you're intending to buy.
BTW, there is also some doubt about the BMW repair, given that it involves replacing the whole rear floor of the car with exactly the same panel that was used originally. So the car is still prone to the failure in future, plus you have ripped open all the seams at the back and now have much more potential for rust etc. If I ever have the failure on my CSL, I'm not sure I'd be wanting to butcher the car that much to fix it.
Pretty much every car has got some achilles heel like this, so it's just a question of checking out the car you're intending to buy.
BTW, there is also some doubt about the BMW repair, given that it involves replacing the whole rear floor of the car with exactly the same panel that was used originally. So the car is still prone to the failure in future, plus you have ripped open all the seams at the back and now have much more potential for rust etc. If I ever have the failure on my CSL, I'm not sure I'd be wanting to butcher the car that much to fix it.
Edited by outnumbered on Friday 20th June 13:13
The Redish kit is nowhere near that price is it? Just googled and looks like just under £200, or is the price the OP quoted the fitted price?
My E46 328 had a cracked floorplan that I fixed myself in an evening, not a problem if you can weld. If your car's worth peanuts (like mine) any kit is just unnecessary. just cut out some mild steel plates of about 1.6-2.0mm and reinforce it yourself if and when it goes.
If it's something a bit nicer like an E46 M3, maybe factor in the cost of the reinforcement prior to purchase and have it done for peace of mind. It's really not that expensive in the scheme of owning a high performance car. If £1500 on something like this is likely to be an issue then maybe this kind of car is not quite within reach yet.
My E46 328 had a cracked floorplan that I fixed myself in an evening, not a problem if you can weld. If your car's worth peanuts (like mine) any kit is just unnecessary. just cut out some mild steel plates of about 1.6-2.0mm and reinforce it yourself if and when it goes.
If it's something a bit nicer like an E46 M3, maybe factor in the cost of the reinforcement prior to purchase and have it done for peace of mind. It's really not that expensive in the scheme of owning a high performance car. If £1500 on something like this is likely to be an issue then maybe this kind of car is not quite within reach yet.
outnumbered said:
Yes, it can happen to any E46 (saloon or coupe, at least, not sure about the estate). Likely to be more common on more powerful models though.
Pretty much every car has got some achilles heel like this, so it's just a question of checking out the car you're intending to buy.
BTW, there is also some doubt about the BMW repair, given that it involves replacing the whole rear floor of the car with exactly the same panel that was used originally. So the car is still prone to the failure in future, plus you have ripped open all the seams at the back and now have much more potential for rust etc. If I ever have the failure on my CSL, I'm not sure I'd be wanting to butcher the car that much to fix it.
Whilst the replacement floor is the same part as the original, it has additional strengthening resign applied to it to re-enforce the areas that are prone to cracking.Pretty much every car has got some achilles heel like this, so it's just a question of checking out the car you're intending to buy.
BTW, there is also some doubt about the BMW repair, given that it involves replacing the whole rear floor of the car with exactly the same panel that was used originally. So the car is still prone to the failure in future, plus you have ripped open all the seams at the back and now have much more potential for rust etc. If I ever have the failure on my CSL, I'm not sure I'd be wanting to butcher the car that much to fix it.
Edited by outnumbered on Friday 20th June 13:13
In the USA, BMW USA initially replaced all of the affected floors by installing complete new floors in every case.
Eventually, they only replaced the entire floor if the cracks were over a certain size. If the cracks were under the specified size then they carried out repairs to the existing floor using the same strengthening resign.
Two years ago my 328 Ci floor cracked at 70K miles, out of warranty, I suspect it was aggravated by the ESC/ABS during the bad snow and ice a couple of winters ago.
I welded it up myself using home made plates, not too hard to do but time consuming as the subframe and exhaust have to be removed.
As the cracks are initially hard to spot I suspect many cars are affected without the owner knowing, certainly a lot of MOT testers don't know about the issue.
I welded it up myself using home made plates, not too hard to do but time consuming as the subframe and exhaust have to be removed.
As the cracks are initially hard to spot I suspect many cars are affected without the owner knowing, certainly a lot of MOT testers don't know about the issue.
Sardonicus said:
Seen lots of high miler E46 over the years and none of them show signs(same can not be said of the brake hard lines though rusting 
) although I cant comment on the M3's this seems to be the main culprit for failure 
Edited by Sardonicus on Saturday 21st June 10:42
The issue is well documented by owners all over the World (BMW haven't simply been replacing boot floors because they like a challenge!).
Let's put it this way, as a Garage Owner/Motor Mechanic, would you be prepared to personally guarantee that any (non M3) E46 bought by a member of Pistonheads will not suffer the subframe issue and that if it turns out that their car does suffer the issue, you will carry out a free repair for them? - Thought not!
It's easy enough to do a search on the subject, both for in the UK and for around the rest of the World (This Pistonheads thread comes up as one of the first on Google: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... )
I'm currently looking at purchasing an E46 330ci, initially reading up about the boot cracks made me have second thoughts but I can honestly say after a bit more research it really hasn't put me off them:
I know of about 10 E46s that have been owned by family and friends, none of them had suffered from the problem and also having spoken to some mechanic friends only one of them had experienced a car with the cracks. It may well be a design flaw and people on the forums damn well make others aware about it, but from what I've seen personally, there's a massive amount of E46s on the road vs the amount of crack issues I actually see/hear of. In essence you'd be pretty unlucky to actually encounter the issue.
I have also been told the cracks may be more common in cars that are driven aggressively and aren't looked after quite as well as they could've been (not saying this is true, just what I have been told by a mechanic who has fixed cracks). As with any other car, I'll be looking for one with full service history and in the cleanest condition for my budget, also making sure I have a good look underneath! As stated in the above post, all cars have their specific issues and if the cracks do make an appearance, I'll deal with it then rather than worry beforehand, they're generally solid cars and I personally think the chance of cracks appearing (in reality) are rare..
Hope that helps you !
I know of about 10 E46s that have been owned by family and friends, none of them had suffered from the problem and also having spoken to some mechanic friends only one of them had experienced a car with the cracks. It may well be a design flaw and people on the forums damn well make others aware about it, but from what I've seen personally, there's a massive amount of E46s on the road vs the amount of crack issues I actually see/hear of. In essence you'd be pretty unlucky to actually encounter the issue.
I have also been told the cracks may be more common in cars that are driven aggressively and aren't looked after quite as well as they could've been (not saying this is true, just what I have been told by a mechanic who has fixed cracks). As with any other car, I'll be looking for one with full service history and in the cleanest condition for my budget, also making sure I have a good look underneath! As stated in the above post, all cars have their specific issues and if the cracks do make an appearance, I'll deal with it then rather than worry beforehand, they're generally solid cars and I personally think the chance of cracks appearing (in reality) are rare..
Hope that helps you !
helix402 said:
The problem is not as common as some forum doom mongers would have you believe.
This is true..Remember you only hear of the ones that have gone on forums not thousands and thousands that are fine....my 2002 M3 had it checked a few weeks ago and it was all fine and she had 113k on the clock and done track days so plenty of stress on the car.....My local specialist said he has only ever seen one E46 with this issue and that was when in worked for BMW many years ago....A friend who also worked for BMW and now sells cars himself said he had never seen one with this issue and he has sold many M3's and E46 3's.......Now that's not to say its not an issue as it clearly is and for BMW to fix any cars up to 10 years old tells you its a problem they are aware about.....It seems to effect the high performance stuff and certainly cars that have bigger wheels and lowered as it may put extra stress on that part of the car but I could be wrong..That's what it seems to me from reading a lot of threads on certain forums. Best thing to do is just get any potential car checked over before purchase for piece of mind......
I sort of also think that some may be scaremongering ...... All these companies now know offering a fix before it happens.....Hmmmm.....some money to be made there......
Edited by Andyt25 on Sunday 22 June 06:59
I read up on this problem before I bought a 330 Ci a couple of years back. From memory, BMW changed the manufacturing process fairly early on to help address the problem. Maybe Feb 2001? Didn't completely solve the problem, but at the time I remember the advice was that if you're looking at a late 2001 (build date) or newer non-M car, it's much less likely to be an issue.
Sardonicus said:
hats fine ............. but if your not capable of viewing a car and assessing its true condition (inc cracked boot floors etc) then maybe you should pay someone who can I was not stating the cracking/splitting condition does not exist (we know it does) I just meant that it is not as common as people make out inc the ZF autobox loosing/breaking reverse clutch drum 
We're not talking about car nuts here though are we, we're talking in general about ordinary people who just want a car to get in and drive. I was not stating the cracking/splitting condition does not exist (we know it does) I just meant that it is not as common as people make out inc the ZF autobox loosing/breaking reverse clutch drum The general public does not expect BMW with it's reputation for quality (rightly or wrongly!), to be a car that suffers from the boot floor tearing apart!
And so there are two problems:
1) Not everyone does their homework when buying cars and plenty of people are completely unaware of the problem.
2) Unless you can get the car on a lift (how many car dealers have that facility?), or you can pull all of the carpets and trim out of the boot (how many car dealers are going to let you do that?), then the cracks are not that easy to spot! -E46's can hide the cracks pretty well!
Also, how many (non mechanic) people go to look at a car and then crawl all the way underneath it on the ground to check the underside out? - Not many I suspect! They tend to bend down or kneel down, have cursory look to see if it's rusty or not and then leave it at that.
And of those people who do, how many know what to look for?
Like I say, very few car buyers do their homework to that degree!
p1tse said:
When Jeremy clarkson reviewed the csl on top gear I kind of recall him joking about the boot floor made from cardboard or along the lines
Was this him joking about this issue or him saying cls being light weight?
That was different, the rear floor, that goes over the wheel well in a regular E46 is cardboard on the CSL to save weight. Was this him joking about this issue or him saying cls being light weight?
He also said there was no climate or a radio, the car he was in was fitted with both.
Here sone info on the issue from some reputable sources:
https://drivetribe.com/p/Pl7K58qaTcOyY3cDgHPu-Q?ii...
Happy to be a Compact owner 😄
I am however looking at installing the so-called Vince Bar just in case.
https://drivetribe.com/p/Pl7K58qaTcOyY3cDgHPu-Q?ii...
Happy to be a Compact owner 😄
I am however looking at installing the so-called Vince Bar just in case.
Is redish still in business? Their website looks like no one is home!
http://www.redish-motorsport.com/index.html
http://www.redish-motorsport.com/index.html
ian in lancs said:
Is redish still in business? Their website looks like no one is home!
http://www.redish-motorsport.com/index.html
Looks like they have become Redish Automotive:http://www.redish-motorsport.com/index.html
https://www.youtube.com/user/RedishMotorsport
http://www.redish-automotive.co.uk/
From: http://www.redish-automotive.co.uk/news#sthash.gp9... ) :
Redish News
The latest news from Redish Motorsport, including updates regarding our staff projects. Click a headline to view the full news story/press release
KlausH79 said:
Here sone info on the issue from some reputable sources:
https://drivetribe.com/p/Pl7K58qaTcOyY3cDgHPu-Q?ii...
Happy to be a Compact owner ??
I am however looking at installing the so-called Vince Bar just in case.
As said, no E46 is safe. Some periodical checking however can save you a small fortune. While they probably all crack under the subframe mounts you'd have to be very unlucky to need a new floor.https://drivetribe.com/p/Pl7K58qaTcOyY3cDgHPu-Q?ii...
Happy to be a Compact owner ??
I am however looking at installing the so-called Vince Bar just in case.
Mileage is no indicator either. Mine was cracked at 128k but not terribly and only visible once the subframe was dropped. There is at least one E46 M3 out there on 60k where his RACP was fit for the bin. That's on Redish's site.
ETA reinforce them for £700 and also stitch weld the RACP to the inner arch, more than even the later cars came with.
I believe Torque Developments do the same thing in Redditch who have a great reputation in the Mazda and increasingly the BMW circles. Tegiwa race E46s and also do the fix for less than Redish rates.
ian in lancs said:
Is redish still in business? Their website looks like no one is home!
http://www.redish-motorsport.com/index.html
They are. They are very very busy however.http://www.redish-motorsport.com/index.html
Their RACP is possibly the best out there but as said many others do a decent job. Redish's second ever repaired car without the Vince bar is still going strong too.
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