Brake issues on a 2013 330d
Discussion
Just posting on here to see if anyone has had similar issues really and vent a bit! I bought my AUC 330d touring earlier on this year from a BMW dealer. 2013 car 46,000 miles was very happy intially ( and still love the car !) however after only about 3 weeks noticed I was getting a fair bit of judder when braking , couldn't tell whether it was front or rear so took it in to my nearest BMW dealer. They had it up on the ramps and I get called down into the workshop after about 10 mins and the technician proceeds to show me the rear discs which were very badly corroded , the supplying dealer had put new pads on which were a waste of time with the discs in the state they were. I ring up supplying dealer and have a bit of a go at the them and they agree to new disc and pads on the rear! No apologies or explanation but at least the brakes were sorted........
Fast forward another 3-4 weeks and less than a thousand miles, starts doing it again! Back it goes and they check the rear discs and find they are warped ...after 3 weeks! They suggest maybe they were faulty and put new ones on free of charge , off I go again happy as Larry........
Another 4 weeks go by and I notice it's doing it again !! Back I go and now the front discs are warped ! I pay for new front discs and pads (am still trying to get supplying dealer to make a contribution but that's a whole other thread). Great it's finally fixed......
Apart from now some 2-3 months and 2,000 miles it's starting to do it again! It's booked to go back in again soon for them to look at it again.
I guess the front or rear discs are warped again and my real question is what would be causing this and has anyone had similar issues with their car ? Obviously I do want them to simply change the discs again as there must be something causing the issue in the first place .
Fast forward another 3-4 weeks and less than a thousand miles, starts doing it again! Back it goes and they check the rear discs and find they are warped ...after 3 weeks! They suggest maybe they were faulty and put new ones on free of charge , off I go again happy as Larry........
Another 4 weeks go by and I notice it's doing it again !! Back I go and now the front discs are warped ! I pay for new front discs and pads (am still trying to get supplying dealer to make a contribution but that's a whole other thread). Great it's finally fixed......
Apart from now some 2-3 months and 2,000 miles it's starting to do it again! It's booked to go back in again soon for them to look at it again.
I guess the front or rear discs are warped again and my real question is what would be causing this and has anyone had similar issues with their car ? Obviously I do want them to simply change the discs again as there must be something causing the issue in the first place .
I had a similar experience on my E91. Had 3 new sets of front brake discs in the space of 3 or 4 months, replaced by the garage at no cost to me after the first set start juddering under braking after a few weeks. Different make of discs made no difference and the 3rd set were going the same way when I sold the car. Never really got to the bottom of it, but I suspect that either the discs were never seated properly on the hub when fitted, or the vibration was to do with something else entirely - a worn suspension bush perhaps?
Tron1 said:
Just posting on here to see if anyone has had similar issues really and vent a bit! I bought my AUC 330d touring earlier on this year from a BMW dealer. 2013 car 46,000 miles was very happy intially ( and still love the car !) however after only about 3 weeks noticed I was getting a fair bit of judder when braking , couldn't tell whether it was front or rear so took it in to my nearest BMW dealer. They had it up on the ramps and I get called down into the workshop after about 10 mins and the technician proceeds to show me the rear discs which were very badly corroded , the supplying dealer had put new pads on which were a waste of time with the discs in the state they were. I ring up supplying dealer and have a bit of a go at the them and they agree to new disc and pads on the rear! No apologies or explanation but at least the brakes were sorted........
Fast forward another 3-4 weeks and less than a thousand miles, starts doing it again! Back it goes and they check the rear discs and find they are warped ...after 3 weeks! They suggest maybe they were faulty and put new ones on free of charge , off I go again happy as Larry........
Another 4 weeks go by and I notice it's doing it again !! Back I go and now the front discs are warped ! I pay for new front discs and pads (am still trying to get supplying dealer to make a contribution but that's a whole other thread). Great it's finally fixed......
Apart from now some 2-3 months and 2,000 miles it's starting to do it again! It's booked to go back in again soon for them to look at it again.
I guess the front or rear discs are warped again and my real question is what would be causing this and has anyone had similar issues with their car ? Obviously I do want them to simply change the discs again as there must be something causing the issue in the first place .
I've been going round in the same circle with my E61 over the past 8-9 months - only happens under braking.Fast forward another 3-4 weeks and less than a thousand miles, starts doing it again! Back it goes and they check the rear discs and find they are warped ...after 3 weeks! They suggest maybe they were faulty and put new ones on free of charge , off I go again happy as Larry........
Another 4 weeks go by and I notice it's doing it again !! Back I go and now the front discs are warped ! I pay for new front discs and pads (am still trying to get supplying dealer to make a contribution but that's a whole other thread). Great it's finally fixed......
Apart from now some 2-3 months and 2,000 miles it's starting to do it again! It's booked to go back in again soon for them to look at it again.
I guess the front or rear discs are warped again and my real question is what would be causing this and has anyone had similar issues with their car ? Obviously I do want them to simply change the discs again as there must be something causing the issue in the first place .
The rear discs and pads needed doing a short while after purchase so I did them initially, then started to get judder around a month later. At that time, the fronts were about due so replaced those also. I used Brembo discs and pads in both cases, so not cheap rubbish. Around a month later, the judder/vibration slowly started coming back, and I just put up with it for a while.
I was coming up to set off for a 2000+ mile drive down into Europe, and wanted it sorting. I noticed the vibration/judder was actually worse when braking on a downhill road from speed, so decided to replace the front suspension components as the car was coming up to around 100k. I did the thrust arms, control arms and droplinks. This actually made it worse. I ended up putting another set of discs on the front just before leaving.... and the problem went away.
The car was faultless for the trip, but around a month after changing the suspension components and discs for a second time, the judder/vibration was back. At this point I started searching for people with a similar issue. No help anywhere really, I never got replies on forums even with details of what I'd already done, seems people on the 5er boards are only interested in HIDs and wheels. I put up with it for a while longer, then it gradually started getting even worse... so the only real option I had was to start replacing other front end components. I am convinced its the front as its felt through the steering wheel/front of the car.
Its probably worth mentioning I'm on the standard wheels, with Michelin Pilot Sport 4s, non run flat. All wheels run true and balance fine. Just last weekend I replaced both front wheel bearings, which made no difference whatsoever. The judder/vibration is still present and I'm no further. The only parts I've not replaced now are suspension top mounts, shock absorbers, brake calipers... but where do you stop? When the pads were fitted the brake calipers were completely free, not sticking or sized, so I'm reluctant to rebuild them. The same with the shock absorbers, there are no leaks and the ride is great. I'm very close to just not bothering with it any further, selling the car and moving to an Fx model.... which is a shame because the car does everything I need it to and when its functioning correctly its great, but when you are just spending on it to sort silly faults it becomes tiresome. I'm lucky in light I do the labour myself... but its not the point.
I'm convinced if I replace the front discs (AGAIN for the 3rd time!) again the problem will go away, and it will be fine for a month. This then makes me think maybe one of the calipers is actually sticking when warm and causing deposits on the disc... tough one to prove without refurbishing the calipers, and does not explain why the judder/vibration is worse on downhill roads.
Lots of suggestions and all could be viable IMO.
My own experience with a 5 series, on which this is a common issue:
The car was fine for almost two years until it was left unused outside for 3 weeks or so last February, when it developed brake judder (It's normally garaged when not being used). Visual inspection showed no rust or anything. Tried the heavy braking 'cure' which didn't seem to help, though the judder wasn't so noticeable when braking very heavily.
Fully intended to take the car to the dealer but just didn't get round to it. After a couple of months the judder became less and less and is now gone.
This, to me, supports the theory that a variation in pad surface, because the the pads protect an area while the exposed disc corrodes, is the main cause of this judder. Subsequent issues may be down to poor assembly of replacement parts or just further incidents of corrosion.
BMW certainly seems to have an issue with this, maybe partly down to calliper design. I've found our 5 wears the rear pads more than the front and much quicker than I would have expected.
My own experience with a 5 series, on which this is a common issue:
The car was fine for almost two years until it was left unused outside for 3 weeks or so last February, when it developed brake judder (It's normally garaged when not being used). Visual inspection showed no rust or anything. Tried the heavy braking 'cure' which didn't seem to help, though the judder wasn't so noticeable when braking very heavily.
Fully intended to take the car to the dealer but just didn't get round to it. After a couple of months the judder became less and less and is now gone.
This, to me, supports the theory that a variation in pad surface, because the the pads protect an area while the exposed disc corrodes, is the main cause of this judder. Subsequent issues may be down to poor assembly of replacement parts or just further incidents of corrosion.
BMW certainly seems to have an issue with this, maybe partly down to calliper design. I've found our 5 wears the rear pads more than the front and much quicker than I would have expected.
Thanks for all the replies and seems it could be a few different things. It's going back into BMW on 14 th Nov so will see where I get to but I'm very much in the same boat as the previous poster where the new discs and pads seem to sort things for a month or 2 then it comes back but I'll keep you updated as to what BMW say
I would be more inclined to think you have a brake caliper problem.
Has it had a recent brake fluid change at all? It could have an air lock in the system - it could be causing the caliper not to grip the disc at the correct time or actually constantly rub against the disk which in turn gets them too hot and wrap OR get so hot that the pad material transfers to the disc and stays there.
Take it back - its not a common problem - its just poor workmanship or a fault. On a car that new it wont be any suspension parts.
Has it had a recent brake fluid change at all? It could have an air lock in the system - it could be causing the caliper not to grip the disc at the correct time or actually constantly rub against the disk which in turn gets them too hot and wrap OR get so hot that the pad material transfers to the disc and stays there.
Take it back - its not a common problem - its just poor workmanship or a fault. On a car that new it wont be any suspension parts.
Both front calipers rebuilt (they are the alu/alloy versions, with alu/alloy pistons). The old pistons and seals looked fine, replaced everything anyway.
No difference whatsoever.
The issue is significantly worse on downhill roads (always has been), as much to the fact the dashboard vibrates, not just the steering wheel.
On flat roads and uphill, less so, and its just through the steering wheel.
Maybe the old calipers were actually originally sticking, and in turn damaged my 4 month old discs? Visually they look fine with no deposits, but you never know.
Do I risk changing the front discs AGAIN now the calipers have been rebuilt, and hope the issue doesn't return within a matter of weeks? Im not so sure.
No difference whatsoever.
The issue is significantly worse on downhill roads (always has been), as much to the fact the dashboard vibrates, not just the steering wheel.
On flat roads and uphill, less so, and its just through the steering wheel.
Maybe the old calipers were actually originally sticking, and in turn damaged my 4 month old discs? Visually they look fine with no deposits, but you never know.
Do I risk changing the front discs AGAIN now the calipers have been rebuilt, and hope the issue doesn't return within a matter of weeks? Im not so sure.
I think the issue is that the calipers are seized on their pins and don't slide when applying the brakes means the pads only push on one side causing heat on one side of the disks and Distortion. This is the issue with single sided calipers. 4 ports don't do this.
I think leaving the car out causes the rust which makes them seize. Especially on alloy calipers.
It's not the pistons in the calipers that are seizing, but obviously changing the calipers means they are free to slide.
I've had this on a number of previous BMW's
I think leaving the car out causes the rust which makes them seize. Especially on alloy calipers.
It's not the pistons in the calipers that are seizing, but obviously changing the calipers means they are free to slide.
I've had this on a number of previous BMW's
Edited by andrewr on Sunday 6th November 01:43
Well I thought I would update you all and ask for more advice! Car has been in BMW all week. Needed another set of rear discs and pads as they were warped again! Supplying dealer agreed to pay . I have wheels that are painted black . They are BMW wheels but were painted by the previous owner but checked and sold on to me by the supplying BMW dealer. My local dealer who has been doing all the repairs and checks have finally decided it's the amount of paint on the wheels which are not letting enough heat out and so making the discs overheat and thus warp.
Apprently this is a known issue and so they spoke to supplying dealership who have said that the inside of the wheels can just be cleaned and this should sort out the problem. Fixing dealer thought they needed to be dipped back to bare metal and re powder coated. Supplying dealer didn't agree and refused to pay for that . The workshop managers have both then spoken to each other after lots of twoing and froing mainly by me to try and resolve it . They have both then agreed that the cleaning should sort it out and that has now been done .
I've got the car back and am basically now concerned that it's going to happen again . Main real question is who does the responsibility to fix it properly lie with . I live 170 miles away from supplying dealer so to keep returning it there is not really an option . Both dealerships are BMW main dealers but different franchises . The car is still under AUC warranty and this fault has been there almost since I bought the car on 31st March . If it happens again then obviously the car will need to go back in but is there any point taking it to the fixing dealer or should I take it back to the supplying dealership?
Apprently this is a known issue and so they spoke to supplying dealership who have said that the inside of the wheels can just be cleaned and this should sort out the problem. Fixing dealer thought they needed to be dipped back to bare metal and re powder coated. Supplying dealer didn't agree and refused to pay for that . The workshop managers have both then spoken to each other after lots of twoing and froing mainly by me to try and resolve it . They have both then agreed that the cleaning should sort it out and that has now been done .
I've got the car back and am basically now concerned that it's going to happen again . Main real question is who does the responsibility to fix it properly lie with . I live 170 miles away from supplying dealer so to keep returning it there is not really an option . Both dealerships are BMW main dealers but different franchises . The car is still under AUC warranty and this fault has been there almost since I bought the car on 31st March . If it happens again then obviously the car will need to go back in but is there any point taking it to the fixing dealer or should I take it back to the supplying dealership?
'Warped discs' is an utterly bulls
t explanation for this. I've never seen anyone give any evidence that discs were ever warped or a credible explination as to why discs would 'warp' by even aggressive road use, let alone pootling along a motorway. Discs cool primarily by convection. So unless the extra paint manages to create a vacuum around the disc. That's not it.
I'm convinced it's primarily a suspension/steering linkage issue (some play somewhere) with the forcing caused by minor disc variation/runout.
ie Minor variation in brakes/runout excites the suspensions with worn bushes. The same minor variation on good suspension doesn't do it. It's why brakes seems to fix it tempraroly, then it comes back as they settle in.
Was never able to convince anyone else though. So I ended up getting rid of mine as I didn't fancy doing the entire suspension as a diagnostic.
If it's AUC just keep throwing it back and telling them to fix it. Then get onto BMW UK after it's been back several times.
t explanation for this. I've never seen anyone give any evidence that discs were ever warped or a credible explination as to why discs would 'warp' by even aggressive road use, let alone pootling along a motorway. Discs cool primarily by convection. So unless the extra paint manages to create a vacuum around the disc. That's not it. I'm convinced it's primarily a suspension/steering linkage issue (some play somewhere) with the forcing caused by minor disc variation/runout.
ie Minor variation in brakes/runout excites the suspensions with worn bushes. The same minor variation on good suspension doesn't do it. It's why brakes seems to fix it tempraroly, then it comes back as they settle in.
Was never able to convince anyone else though. So I ended up getting rid of mine as I didn't fancy doing the entire suspension as a diagnostic.
If it's AUC just keep throwing it back and telling them to fix it. Then get onto BMW UK after it's been back several times.
Edited by xxChrisxx on Friday 18th November 16:27
Yep it sounded a bit strange to me but apparently there is a PUMA ?? Notice about it being a known fault . It's now on it's 3rd set of rear discs and pads and second set of fronts since I bought it ! At what point will they have exhausted the chance to fix it and I can look at further options then ?
Tron1 said:
Yep it sounded a bit strange to me but apparently there is a PUMA ?? Notice about it being a known fault . It's now on it's 3rd set of rear discs and pads and second set of fronts since I bought it ! At what point will they have exhausted the chance to fix it and I can look at further options then ?
I'd say it's more than fair to escalate to BMW UK. Stating a car should not go back and need to have the brakes changes 5 times. It's unacceptable for a safety critical component.Either
A: If the dealers diagnosis is correct, the brakes they have designed are beyond s
t.B: The dealers diagnosis of the root cause is wrong. Could they please tell them what the real cause is.
As 'warped bakes' is just a lazy diagnosis, and you hear enough stories that BMW must have done a study into warranty claims on it and actually worked out the real root cause.
I think I will contact BMW UK on Monday and see where I go from here because guess what ? Yep it's already doing it again , turns out fixing dealer chanhged rear discs and pads but only checked wear on front pads and didn't check for any front disc issues so it's going back in on Monday .....again ! It shouldn't be this hard work owing a car that I bought from the AUC scheme and spent what is for me a massive amount of money on. It's completely ruined the ownership experience for me I'm afraid , which is a real shame as when there isn't an issue I love the car !
Tron1 said:
I think I will contact BMW UK on Monday and see where I go from here because guess what ? Yep it's already doing it again , turns out fixing dealer chanhged rear discs and pads but only checked wear on front pads and didn't check for any front disc issues so it's going back in on Monday .....again ! It shouldn't be this hard work owing a car that I bought from the AUC scheme and spent what is for me a massive amount of money on. It's completely ruined the ownership experience for me I'm afraid , which is a real shame as when there isn't an issue I love the car !
It's pretty awful that they haven't sorted this out. I hope BMW uk respond as they should and I for one would like to know how you get on.
With all the similar reports you'd think they would have a firm grip on this issue and sort problems like yours, even if it took all new brakes, wheels and tyres to do it.
For what it's worth, my problem, reported above, just went away, before I could be bothered to take it in. Brakes are fine now which leads me to believe that it was being stood outside unused for a few weeks that caused my issue. Minor compared to your problem but again something that just shouldn't happen.
xxChrisxx, totally agree - 'warped' discs is a myth, I'm unsure why so many people think its possible... maybe they dont realise how much heat it takes to manufacture a brake disc. Yes you can get runout/poor wear/pad deposits which causes the symptom, but not 'warped' as people try to claim.
Never heard anything like that from a main dealer about the wheels... absolutely terrible excuse. You will NEVER generate enough continual heat on the road to cause anything like that, ever. I run BMWs on track to put it in perspective. with 16" (Style 5) wheels, which do not help cooling to say the least. This is on a 315mm x 23mm disc, slightly smaller than my E61, with very aggressive pads, and get hammered lap after lap. I have never had a single issue with vibration/judder or 'warping'.
The brake sizings are more than capable for the car, both caliper and disc, and as xxChrisxx said it has to be initially caused by something else.
Going back to my (similar) issue above, I rebuilt the calipers so I knew they were hydraulically fine/not sticking, and the issue was still there. This proved it was the discs. I got a new pair of discs two weeks ago, and just fitted one side before taking it for a drive. The vibration/judder halved as expected. When I fitted the other side it was completely eliminated. Now as the case has been above, this was fine for a couple of months/few thousand miles, then it would be back - so time will tell.
Maybe the other sets of discs had some sort of runout, and I've cured the root problem by rebuilding the calipers and replacing wheel bearings over the past months. I will know if it comes back by the end of the year............ hopefully not.
Never heard anything like that from a main dealer about the wheels... absolutely terrible excuse. You will NEVER generate enough continual heat on the road to cause anything like that, ever. I run BMWs on track to put it in perspective. with 16" (Style 5) wheels, which do not help cooling to say the least. This is on a 315mm x 23mm disc, slightly smaller than my E61, with very aggressive pads, and get hammered lap after lap. I have never had a single issue with vibration/judder or 'warping'.
The brake sizings are more than capable for the car, both caliper and disc, and as xxChrisxx said it has to be initially caused by something else.
Going back to my (similar) issue above, I rebuilt the calipers so I knew they were hydraulically fine/not sticking, and the issue was still there. This proved it was the discs. I got a new pair of discs two weeks ago, and just fitted one side before taking it for a drive. The vibration/judder halved as expected. When I fitted the other side it was completely eliminated. Now as the case has been above, this was fine for a couple of months/few thousand miles, then it would be back - so time will tell.
Maybe the other sets of discs had some sort of runout, and I've cured the root problem by rebuilding the calipers and replacing wheel bearings over the past months. I will know if it comes back by the end of the year............ hopefully not.
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