Be careful out there if you have comfort access...
Discussion
This is a post I made on a Porsche forum recently but relates to a BOW as well so I thought worth repeating here...
Yes I’ve heard the stories that these are insecure etc.... but always taken them with a pinch of salt........ until my recent experiences.....
First of all we have had x3 company cars stolen off employee drives in the past 5 weeks, dotted around the country. These where all high value “premium” cars with keyless / comfort access and all stolen from home drives without the keys or access to the house. The thieves apparently simply got into them and drove away.
The police / our insurance have confirmed that they where stolen with “amplifiers” held up to doors. The common thing being that each had the car keys simply left inside the front doors and the cars where parked on a drive close to the front door. Apparently they can also use two amplifiers if the cars are a little further away ie one near the key and one near the car.
I also get monthly police reports by email for my local parish. Its a high profile area of Liverpool (most of the premiership footballers live near me) and in the past 14 days there have been 15 cars stolen only one of which involved access to the keys. In the past 3 months 40 cars have been stolen without keys in one relatively small area
The police have now confirmed that these are directly due to keyless entry “amplifiers” being used.
The police have confirmed that the current levels of car theft are the highest they have ever recorded (even higher than the good old days). They are actively recommending that car keys are stored in Farady bags when not in use.
I’m due to collect a new factory order BMW 740e on Monday. BMW have contacted me today to confirm the collection has been delayed until Thursday. The reason, they are fitting a cat5 Trackstar tracker with 3 year subscription free of charge on delivery to the UK. This is similar to the system I have on my BGTS ie allows remote immobilization, police monitoring on theft and you have to carry a separate ID tag. They can only be doing this for one reason.
So anyone with a comfort / keyless go system on their car these are not just scare stories, there appears to be a massive epidemic and a massive step backwards in car security currently being experienced.
I’m not sure how I’ll deal with this myself yet (currently on holiday) but my thoughts are:
- simply store the keys further from the house boundaries, I live in Victorian house with very thick walls and door. The problem is the convenience of just leaving them on the shelf next to the front door.
- buy faraday bags t o keep them in. Again the issue is convenience of just growing them down and I have x4 sets of keys in use (although only 3 have keyless go and the BGTS is in storage for the winter)
- line a drawer with foil and keep the keys in that. I have a coat rack with small drawers above in the area we currently keep the keys. Effectively create a farady box.
- do nothing, two of the cars have cat5 trackers requiring ID fobs to also be present, but that does not stop them moving, and the 993 is proper old school, its in a high security garage with a thatcham steering wheel lock bar fitted.
I’ll probably line a drawer with foil and try to get in the habit of putting keys in there when not in use. Hopefully the x4 CCTV cameras covering the front of the house will put off Mr thief and his backpack of electronics :dont know:
Ps it may be Mr Thief has already tried at my house but can’t get a signal through the thick walls / door :dont know:
I’m also wondering if keyless go can be turned off. To be honest in terms of opening the cars I still prefer to use the fob button, its just the convenience of not having to get the key out to start I like :frustrated:
Yes I’ve heard the stories that these are insecure etc.... but always taken them with a pinch of salt........ until my recent experiences.....
First of all we have had x3 company cars stolen off employee drives in the past 5 weeks, dotted around the country. These where all high value “premium” cars with keyless / comfort access and all stolen from home drives without the keys or access to the house. The thieves apparently simply got into them and drove away.
The police / our insurance have confirmed that they where stolen with “amplifiers” held up to doors. The common thing being that each had the car keys simply left inside the front doors and the cars where parked on a drive close to the front door. Apparently they can also use two amplifiers if the cars are a little further away ie one near the key and one near the car.
I also get monthly police reports by email for my local parish. Its a high profile area of Liverpool (most of the premiership footballers live near me) and in the past 14 days there have been 15 cars stolen only one of which involved access to the keys. In the past 3 months 40 cars have been stolen without keys in one relatively small area
The police have now confirmed that these are directly due to keyless entry “amplifiers” being used.
The police have confirmed that the current levels of car theft are the highest they have ever recorded (even higher than the good old days). They are actively recommending that car keys are stored in Farady bags when not in use.
I’m due to collect a new factory order BMW 740e on Monday. BMW have contacted me today to confirm the collection has been delayed until Thursday. The reason, they are fitting a cat5 Trackstar tracker with 3 year subscription free of charge on delivery to the UK. This is similar to the system I have on my BGTS ie allows remote immobilization, police monitoring on theft and you have to carry a separate ID tag. They can only be doing this for one reason.
So anyone with a comfort / keyless go system on their car these are not just scare stories, there appears to be a massive epidemic and a massive step backwards in car security currently being experienced.
I’m not sure how I’ll deal with this myself yet (currently on holiday) but my thoughts are:
- simply store the keys further from the house boundaries, I live in Victorian house with very thick walls and door. The problem is the convenience of just leaving them on the shelf next to the front door.
- buy faraday bags t o keep them in. Again the issue is convenience of just growing them down and I have x4 sets of keys in use (although only 3 have keyless go and the BGTS is in storage for the winter)
- line a drawer with foil and keep the keys in that. I have a coat rack with small drawers above in the area we currently keep the keys. Effectively create a farady box.
- do nothing, two of the cars have cat5 trackers requiring ID fobs to also be present, but that does not stop them moving, and the 993 is proper old school, its in a high security garage with a thatcham steering wheel lock bar fitted.
I’ll probably line a drawer with foil and try to get in the habit of putting keys in there when not in use. Hopefully the x4 CCTV cameras covering the front of the house will put off Mr thief and his backpack of electronics :dont know:
Ps it may be Mr Thief has already tried at my house but can’t get a signal through the thick walls / door :dont know:
I’m also wondering if keyless go can be turned off. To be honest in terms of opening the cars I still prefer to use the fob button, its just the convenience of not having to get the key out to start I like :frustrated:
Thanks for this.
I have always hovered over the comfort access option on previous cars, but, for the reasons you outline, I have never gone for it.
We had it on our Zoe and it was great, but I don't regret not getting it on our BMWs. Unsurprisingly, no-one ever tried to steal the Zoe!
I have always hovered over the comfort access option on previous cars, but, for the reasons you outline, I have never gone for it.
We had it on our Zoe and it was great, but I don't regret not getting it on our BMWs. Unsurprisingly, no-one ever tried to steal the Zoe!
I’m not bothered about the car being stolen as its a company car, it was a company insurance requirement so just saves me c£700 in BMW installing it themselves. It explains the delay in new cars once arrived in UK which my dealer had warned me about as recently happening but they did not know why until they queried the cat5 tracker insurance requirement for my car. I’m not sure if BMW are only fitting these on premium cars over a certain price point which is what my dealer implied ie other cars are not getting delayed.
Porsche have been fitting trackers on shipment to UK and pre delivery to customer for years (they use the vodaphone system). The main point Is as making is that it is interesting that BMW are now doing this which to me can only mean that a significant number of premium BMW’s are getting stolen without keys.
My understanding of the cat5 system is that it constantly communciates at regular intervals and if it does not you get a phone call (that’s what happens with my porsche occasionally within 30 secs of me parking it in some multi stories where presumably the signal is lost). If you drive it without the separate ID tag present you also get a call. So if someone tries to block the tracker signal surely that would generate an alert ?
Re the car not being able to be driven away once started with a key amplifier, try it yourself ie you can start the car with the car present, put the keys back in the house and drive away. The car will give you a naughty warning eg key not present but will not stop the car from driving unless the engine is switched off.
I’ve no doubt now that this has been happening for years on a smaller scale / concentrated on maybe London but due to availabliltiy /price of the kit now its in much more widespread use. Would be interesting to see some official analysis of car crime broken down with thefts without keys shown separately. I was genuinely shocked when the police released the local figures to me.
I’m really tempted to just go old school with my BGTS and fit a steering lock as per I use with my old porsche. Soon the car thieves won’t know how to pick a lock lol
Porsche have been fitting trackers on shipment to UK and pre delivery to customer for years (they use the vodaphone system). The main point Is as making is that it is interesting that BMW are now doing this which to me can only mean that a significant number of premium BMW’s are getting stolen without keys.
My understanding of the cat5 system is that it constantly communciates at regular intervals and if it does not you get a phone call (that’s what happens with my porsche occasionally within 30 secs of me parking it in some multi stories where presumably the signal is lost). If you drive it without the separate ID tag present you also get a call. So if someone tries to block the tracker signal surely that would generate an alert ?
Re the car not being able to be driven away once started with a key amplifier, try it yourself ie you can start the car with the car present, put the keys back in the house and drive away. The car will give you a naughty warning eg key not present but will not stop the car from driving unless the engine is switched off.
I’ve no doubt now that this has been happening for years on a smaller scale / concentrated on maybe London but due to availabliltiy /price of the kit now its in much more widespread use. Would be interesting to see some official analysis of car crime broken down with thefts without keys shown separately. I was genuinely shocked when the police released the local figures to me.
I’m really tempted to just go old school with my BGTS and fit a steering lock as per I use with my old porsche. Soon the car thieves won’t know how to pick a lock lol
Edited by jonttt on Friday 27th October 15:27
Well at least I know to avoid 'comfort for criminals access' on a new BMW.
After reading a lot about the USA and how retailers fit trackers and stuff to keep tracks on sub prime car owners, I can't help but think this stuff is BMWs equivalent.
I'd guess 90% of the bmws out there are owned by BMW now.
Keyless access gives BMW unfettered control and associated in-built tracking lets them find their property.
Sadly, like the governments of the West who want encryption backdoors just for 'goodies', BMW are now reaping the reward for having access only for 'goodies' that baddies are now exploiting!
Give it another 10 years and your car will be self-drive stealing itself.
I'd be installing an appropriately set up circuit break.
I suppose the main one you'd most likely get away with is relay at starter motor for sending on main power?
Then hide button in cockpit somewhere?
After reading a lot about the USA and how retailers fit trackers and stuff to keep tracks on sub prime car owners, I can't help but think this stuff is BMWs equivalent.
I'd guess 90% of the bmws out there are owned by BMW now.
Keyless access gives BMW unfettered control and associated in-built tracking lets them find their property.
Sadly, like the governments of the West who want encryption backdoors just for 'goodies', BMW are now reaping the reward for having access only for 'goodies' that baddies are now exploiting!
Give it another 10 years and your car will be self-drive stealing itself.
I'd be installing an appropriately set up circuit break.
I suppose the main one you'd most likely get away with is relay at starter motor for sending on main power?
Then hide button in cockpit somewhere?
jonttt said:
......Re the car not being able to be driven away once started with a key amplifier, try it yourself ie you can start the car with the car present, put the keys back in the house and drive away. The car will give you a naughty warning eg key not present but will not stop the car from driving unless the engine is switched off.....
That is My understanding of the system as well - You can drive off, and if the car does not detect the key/fob/card being present then it will warn you that the key/fob/card is not present, ask if you want to continue driving and then carry on running until you switch off the engine. After that, the car will not re-start due to the lack of a key/fob/card being present, leaving you stranded where you are.I rented a new Ford Mondeo a couple of years ago that had the key-less system. I climbed into the car, dropped the key-fob into the cubby hole just ahead of the gear stick and started to drive along quite happily. After @ 10 miles of driving, the car suddenly displayed a warning on the dashboard that said something along the lines of: "No key detected in the vehicle - Do you want to continue your journey?". I glanced at the key-fob blatantly sat in the cubby hole, so pressed the "OK" button.
When I got to My friends house @ 50 miles away, I switched the engine off, and when I went to switch it back on again, it refused to start, despite the key-fob being inside the car. I climbed out of the car, locked it, walked away, and then walked back to the car, let it unlock itself, and the car started straight up.
When I left My friends house to go home, again after @ 10 miles, the car claimed that the key-fob was not present, even though it was again sitting in front of the gear stick. The car ran for the entire 130 mile trip home, re-starting on the "Start/Stop" system with no issue each time I came to a halt, until I got home, at which point I switched the engine off, and low and behold, it wouldn't start again! I locked the car, walked stepped away, returned to the car, it unlocked itself and started straight up when I pressed the start button!
jonttt said:
I’m really tempted to just go old school with my BGTS and fit a steering lock as per I use with my old porsche. Soon the car thieves won’t know how to pick a lock lol
They'll just go back to car-jacking. Mate got rid of his RS4 Avant after the second time it was taken by force.'The police have confirmed that the current levels of car theft are the highest they have ever recorded'
Police statistics say otherwise, with thefts down 8% according to the latest figures. It may well be that thefts in your area are up, or thefts of a particular model are up, but it's not a general trend.
Comfort access is the 'correlation is not causation' effect. The majority of stolen cars are dark-coloured, but buying a light-coloured car doesn't make it any less likely to be stolen. Similarly, the majority of luxury cars stolen have CA but opting for non-CA doesn't make them any less likely to be stolen.
Police Annual Reports for the last two years conclude that the big trend is towards thefts 'to order' by professional gangs. Whether your car has CA or not is almost irrelevant if it's in the luxury/performance category: The pro gangs have a 'shopping list' with which they survey a potential area; identify targets; watch them for a while; and then sub-contract the actual theft to low-level minions willing to take the risk.
Of course, it makes sense to keep your keys somewhere inside the house, out of view, and away from the hall. Obviously, remote electronic cloning based on comfort access is one method in their portfolio, but there are many others e.g. Police Annual Reports cite an increase in 'but I still have my keys?' thefts - with thieves turning up as bogus meter-readers, doorstep sales reps, bogus utility engineers etc.; taking the keys, quickly cloning them; and then returning them. They then come back in the early hours and take the car leaving the maximum amount of time for them to get away before you realise.
Garaging a car makes it 3x less likely to be stolen than if it's on your drive. Parking it randomly on the street halves the probability of theft. Given the predominance of theft 'to order' putting the car on the drive clearly matches the car against where they keys will be kept.
So practical advice is
A. Is your car in the top#10 stolen list? If it is, then yes, it's definitely worth thinking about security. SUVs in particular remain a popular theft target (X5, Range Rover, Q7, Defender ..) although other models/groups come and go from top#10 each year (e.g. S3 /RS3 ht #1 in 2016)
B. In any event
1. Keep it garaged whenever possible, even during the day.
2. If you can't garage it, park it randomly on the street.
3. Keep the keys inside the house, out of sight, away from the front door and hall. Don't put them where meter readers etc will come across them.
4. Generally, treat you keys like your wallet - if you can't find them, find them ASAP.
5. Don't leave anyone unattended on the doorstep and always supervise utility people/builders.
Police statistics say otherwise, with thefts down 8% according to the latest figures. It may well be that thefts in your area are up, or thefts of a particular model are up, but it's not a general trend.
Comfort access is the 'correlation is not causation' effect. The majority of stolen cars are dark-coloured, but buying a light-coloured car doesn't make it any less likely to be stolen. Similarly, the majority of luxury cars stolen have CA but opting for non-CA doesn't make them any less likely to be stolen.
Police Annual Reports for the last two years conclude that the big trend is towards thefts 'to order' by professional gangs. Whether your car has CA or not is almost irrelevant if it's in the luxury/performance category: The pro gangs have a 'shopping list' with which they survey a potential area; identify targets; watch them for a while; and then sub-contract the actual theft to low-level minions willing to take the risk.
Of course, it makes sense to keep your keys somewhere inside the house, out of view, and away from the hall. Obviously, remote electronic cloning based on comfort access is one method in their portfolio, but there are many others e.g. Police Annual Reports cite an increase in 'but I still have my keys?' thefts - with thieves turning up as bogus meter-readers, doorstep sales reps, bogus utility engineers etc.; taking the keys, quickly cloning them; and then returning them. They then come back in the early hours and take the car leaving the maximum amount of time for them to get away before you realise.
Garaging a car makes it 3x less likely to be stolen than if it's on your drive. Parking it randomly on the street halves the probability of theft. Given the predominance of theft 'to order' putting the car on the drive clearly matches the car against where they keys will be kept.
So practical advice is
A. Is your car in the top#10 stolen list? If it is, then yes, it's definitely worth thinking about security. SUVs in particular remain a popular theft target (X5, Range Rover, Q7, Defender ..) although other models/groups come and go from top#10 each year (e.g. S3 /RS3 ht #1 in 2016)
B. In any event
1. Keep it garaged whenever possible, even during the day.
2. If you can't garage it, park it randomly on the street.
3. Keep the keys inside the house, out of sight, away from the front door and hall. Don't put them where meter readers etc will come across them.
4. Generally, treat you keys like your wallet - if you can't find them, find them ASAP.
5. Don't leave anyone unattended on the doorstep and always supervise utility people/builders.
Edited by msej449 on Sunday 29th October 11:31
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