ZF8 killed the DCT?
Discussion
From what I've read the new M5 will have a ZF8 speed gearbox fitted, the first full fat M car to have a traditional autobox fitted I think. Have ZF created such a good gearbox that this the death of the twin clutch DCT box? Or maybe BMW are planning to continue to fit the twin clutch to the smaller, more sporty models (M2/3/4 etc) and fit the ZF to the larger more GT type models?
CaptainMorgan said:
From what I've read the new M5 will have a ZF8 speed gearbox fitted, the first full fat M car to have a traditional autobox fitted I think. Have ZF created such a good gearbox that this the death of the twin clutch DCT box? Or maybe BMW are planning to continue to fit the twin clutch to the smaller, more sporty models (M2/3/4 etc) and fit the ZF to the larger more GT type models?
The ZFs are that good. Economies of scale probably are another reason.How good?
Here is an M2 vs an M240i. It's a surprising result
https://youtu.be/cphuMPNcdTY?t=35m48s
I have had the BMW DCT in 2 Z4 35iS's ... and the 8 speed in a 120d (Wife's) and now my M240i Convertible ... which would I take - the 8 speed auto !!
The DCT is good for what it is but it suffers as they all do when a multiple change down is needed and it takes an age compared to the 8 speed. The 8 speed auto beats it hands down for me and I believe is less costly if there are issues as DCT / DSG boxes are massively expensive to sort when there are issues.
The DCT is good for what it is but it suffers as they all do when a multiple change down is needed and it takes an age compared to the 8 speed. The 8 speed auto beats it hands down for me and I believe is less costly if there are issues as DCT / DSG boxes are massively expensive to sort when there are issues.
I’ve got an M4 with DCT.
I previously had a 330d with ZF 8-speed.
I much prefer the DCT for feel - it feels like a manual changing gear automatically (which is what it is, essentially) - as the ZF feels like exactly what it is: an auto.
The ZF is a great gearbox but I don’t think it suits performance cars, myself.
Maybe I’ll change my mind when I’ve tried the M5 but in all the incarnations I’ve tried, in various BMWs and Audis, it’s just not what I like in a performance car.
I previously had a 330d with ZF 8-speed.
I much prefer the DCT for feel - it feels like a manual changing gear automatically (which is what it is, essentially) - as the ZF feels like exactly what it is: an auto.
The ZF is a great gearbox but I don’t think it suits performance cars, myself.
Maybe I’ll change my mind when I’ve tried the M5 but in all the incarnations I’ve tried, in various BMWs and Audis, it’s just not what I like in a performance car.
I doubt I’ll ever drive a M5, but the DCT in the E92 M3 felt like I had a racing driver doing the changes for me ; exciting.
I drove it after a M135i with ZF, that just felt like a very fast auto.
I had DCT in 335i , still felt more involving than ZF particularly in manual mode.
I daily drive a X1 , ZF feels the same , good but ordinary auto.
I drove it after a M135i with ZF, that just felt like a very fast auto.
I had DCT in 335i , still felt more involving than ZF particularly in manual mode.
I daily drive a X1 , ZF feels the same , good but ordinary auto.
SebringMan said:
CaptainMorgan said:
From what I've read the new M5 will have a ZF8 speed gearbox fitted, the first full fat M car to have a traditional autobox fitted I think. Have ZF created such a good gearbox that this the death of the twin clutch DCT box? Or maybe BMW are planning to continue to fit the twin clutch to the smaller, more sporty models (M2/3/4 etc) and fit the ZF to the larger more GT type models?
The ZFs are that good. Economies of scale probably are another reason.How good?
Here is an M2 vs an M240i. It's a surprising result
https://youtu.be/cphuMPNcdTY?t=35m48s
Mike335i said:
I've driven both ZF8 (various diesels) and DCT (M4) and the DCT feels the better box for sporting applications, but frankly neither appeal much.
That's the same for me and I think the ZF8 does the slushy bit better, and the DCT does the full on gunning it bit better...I'd still rather use a three pedal manual over both of them though. travel is dangerous said:
SebringMan said:
CaptainMorgan said:
From what I've read the new M5 will have a ZF8 speed gearbox fitted, the first full fat M car to have a traditional autobox fitted I think. Have ZF created such a good gearbox that this the death of the twin clutch DCT box? Or maybe BMW are planning to continue to fit the twin clutch to the smaller, more sporty models (M2/3/4 etc) and fit the ZF to the larger more GT type models?
The ZFs are that good. Economies of scale probably are another reason.How good?
Here is an M2 vs an M240i. It's a surprising result
https://youtu.be/cphuMPNcdTY?t=35m48s
How about they just did a 10 second video where the only line spoken was: "The BMW M240i and M2...........Pretty much the same car!"?
I watched the whole video and found it quite interesting. One thing I would criticise it for though, is that the cars were being driven on stretches of roads that were either dual carriageways, or A-roads with long straights and sweeping curves, giving the impression as you suggest, that both cars are "near identical" (and actually showing that in some circumstances, the M240i can actually have the legs on the M2!).
Had they have driven both cars on some decent twisty B-roads, then I suspect the differences between the two cars would have been highlighted a lot better.
Watching the video as it is, it seems hard to justify spending an extra £10K+ on the M2 when the M240i seems to be 98%* the same car, with a fraction of the running costs.
(*Completely guessed percentage)
Had they shown the cars on much more twisty roads, then I suspect it would have been easier to see why it is worth spending the additional £10K+ for the M2.
The M-DCT is best driven manually, I like the raw changes and the fact you have to at least do a little something to get the best out of it, never had or driven a ZF8 that gets angry, they are efficient, quick but anodyne and well, in the background just doing its thing, great for the morning commute though.
The DCT is bloody awful as an auto box. Audi's DSG works a lot better in auto mode so it's not just the fact it's dual clutch that makes it bad.
With that said the DCT is what you want when caning it, the ZF8 is almost too smooth, the lack of snaps on upshifts or flare of revs from downshifts takes away a bit of the experience.
Will be a shame if it makes its way into other M cars but I wouldn't be surprised either.
For the rest of the range it's an ideal gearbox. It can even make a small diesel engine feel responsive.
With that said the DCT is what you want when caning it, the ZF8 is almost too smooth, the lack of snaps on upshifts or flare of revs from downshifts takes away a bit of the experience.
Will be a shame if it makes its way into other M cars but I wouldn't be surprised either.
For the rest of the range it's an ideal gearbox. It can even make a small diesel engine feel responsive.
Edited by Brainpox on Saturday 11th November 16:47
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