New cars too competent?
Discussion
I recently moved from an 09 330d msport (e90 - LCi) with 120k on the clock to a 17 330d msport - non-xdrive (f30) with 9k on the clock.
The f30 is 'improved' in every measurable way. Slightly larger, quieter, smoother, more powerful, way better 8speed box, connectivity and toys, fuel economy etc. It's also plenty fast enough for 99.9% of the time.
Despite this, I'm struggling to gel with it in the way I did with the e90. Maybe it's the 19inch rims, maybe the electric steering, maybe the overall uplift in capability? It made me think that for 90% of the time is it just too competent, too efficient and effective at what it does and too bland as a result unless you're really pushing on?
I'm just back from a 3,000+ mile euro jaunt in it and it was predictably effortless.
But irritating as some of the e90's occasional faults were and increasing crashiness of its chassis (wear and tear - although it never left the main dealer network and was always fitted with good rubber and anything sorted that needed doing), I find myself regretting the change.
There's plenty of posts on here lamenting the 335d for its sloppy suspension so not interesting in one of those (the reason I chose a rwd 330d) but I'm seriously considering biting the bullet and seeking out an Alpina D3/D4 based on the general consensus that around the subtleties of driving feel, they really have it nailed.
The f30 is 'improved' in every measurable way. Slightly larger, quieter, smoother, more powerful, way better 8speed box, connectivity and toys, fuel economy etc. It's also plenty fast enough for 99.9% of the time.
Despite this, I'm struggling to gel with it in the way I did with the e90. Maybe it's the 19inch rims, maybe the electric steering, maybe the overall uplift in capability? It made me think that for 90% of the time is it just too competent, too efficient and effective at what it does and too bland as a result unless you're really pushing on?
I'm just back from a 3,000+ mile euro jaunt in it and it was predictably effortless.
But irritating as some of the e90's occasional faults were and increasing crashiness of its chassis (wear and tear - although it never left the main dealer network and was always fitted with good rubber and anything sorted that needed doing), I find myself regretting the change.
There's plenty of posts on here lamenting the 335d for its sloppy suspension so not interesting in one of those (the reason I chose a rwd 330d) but I'm seriously considering biting the bullet and seeking out an Alpina D3/D4 based on the general consensus that around the subtleties of driving feel, they really have it nailed.
Pretty much matches my opinion of my 340i xdrive. It's very comfortable on the motorway and (with the MSPK) fast enough but I really am disappointed with the steering. It's pretty much the first car I've owned for as long as I can remember which I don't want to take out to drive - and I have some truly stunning roads minutes away.
I too regret not making more effort to get an Alpina (B3s).
I also wonder whether I should have got the E class estate (E400 or E43) which was really the only other car I seriously considered. Whilst they wouldn't have been more enjoyable to drive, they would have been even more comfortable on long journeys.
I too regret not making more effort to get an Alpina (B3s).
I also wonder whether I should have got the E class estate (E400 or E43) which was really the only other car I seriously considered. Whilst they wouldn't have been more enjoyable to drive, they would have been even more comfortable on long journeys.
Thats a shocker re maybe my next car the 40i ...in sport the steering feels awful so much so I do not use in my 330d f30....it would be the same in an Alpina. And that 40i.....think for 40i type car you have to look at a jag xe s as an alternative
Edited by smashy on Friday 3rd August 16:17
In the same situation as you, currently have a facelift E60 535D which is remapped, love the way it drives and handles, have driven a 335d xDrive but nowhere near feels the same in terms of quality or handling. Then again this is comparing the 3 series to a 5 series but it felt really plastic to me compare to my 10 year old car.
Also the performance wasn't as enjoyable as I though it would be, but then again mine is currently remapped to 370 BHP and 750nm torque. The xDrive is terrible, I much prefer the RWD setup but majority of the new beemers are being produced with xDrive which is a shame really. The steering is so much lighter being electric which takes away so much from the handling, they should have kept the normal power steering like the E series!
The only good thing about the new 3/5 series that really has me thinking about an upgrade is the economy, the fresher look, and the 8 speed gearbox however other than that I may consider keeping mine a little longer as there is nothing hugely attracting me towards them YET, there seems to me more drawbacks than positives tbh.
Also the performance wasn't as enjoyable as I though it would be, but then again mine is currently remapped to 370 BHP and 750nm torque. The xDrive is terrible, I much prefer the RWD setup but majority of the new beemers are being produced with xDrive which is a shame really. The steering is so much lighter being electric which takes away so much from the handling, they should have kept the normal power steering like the E series!
The only good thing about the new 3/5 series that really has me thinking about an upgrade is the economy, the fresher look, and the 8 speed gearbox however other than that I may consider keeping mine a little longer as there is nothing hugely attracting me towards them YET, there seems to me more drawbacks than positives tbh.
Edited by Iddz on Friday 3rd August 15:42
biggles330d said:
I recently moved from an 09 330d msport (e90 - LCi) with 120k on the clock to a 17 330d msport - non-xdrive (f30) with 9k on the clock.
The f30 is 'improved' in every measurable way. Slightly larger, quieter, smoother, more powerful, way better 8speed box, connectivity and toys, fuel economy etc. It's also plenty fast enough for 99.9% of the time.
Despite this, I'm struggling to gel with it in the way I did with the e90. Maybe it's the 19inch rims, maybe the electric steering, maybe the overall uplift in capability? It made me think that for 90% of the time is it just too competent, too efficient and effective at what it does and too bland as a result unless you're really pushing on?
I'm just back from a 3,000+ mile euro jaunt in it and it was predictably effortless.
But irritating as some of the e90's occasional faults were and increasing crashiness of its chassis (wear and tear - although it never left the main dealer network and was always fitted with good rubber and anything sorted that needed doing), I find myself regretting the change.
There's plenty of posts on here lamenting the 335d for its sloppy suspension so not interesting in one of those (the reason I chose a rwd 330d) but I'm seriously considering biting the bullet and seeking out an Alpina D3/D4 based on the general consensus that around the subtleties of driving feel, they really have it nailed.
I had a 2009 335i E92 between 10/2014 and 5/2016 for 25k miles and on the occasions it was in with BMW I got various F series cars as loaners.The f30 is 'improved' in every measurable way. Slightly larger, quieter, smoother, more powerful, way better 8speed box, connectivity and toys, fuel economy etc. It's also plenty fast enough for 99.9% of the time.
Despite this, I'm struggling to gel with it in the way I did with the e90. Maybe it's the 19inch rims, maybe the electric steering, maybe the overall uplift in capability? It made me think that for 90% of the time is it just too competent, too efficient and effective at what it does and too bland as a result unless you're really pushing on?
I'm just back from a 3,000+ mile euro jaunt in it and it was predictably effortless.
But irritating as some of the e90's occasional faults were and increasing crashiness of its chassis (wear and tear - although it never left the main dealer network and was always fitted with good rubber and anything sorted that needed doing), I find myself regretting the change.
There's plenty of posts on here lamenting the 335d for its sloppy suspension so not interesting in one of those (the reason I chose a rwd 330d) but I'm seriously considering biting the bullet and seeking out an Alpina D3/D4 based on the general consensus that around the subtleties of driving feel, they really have it nailed.
I disliked, strongly, due to the lack of steering feel in particular.
This negativity includes the much lauded M135i (now M140) which made me think ;-
Owners of these cars seem to be able to vastly improve the driving experience with LSD, various suspension mods etc. maybe you could improve your F/330d rather sell it?
Love my nasp petrol 3.0 f10 now.. but it took me a long time to warm to it especially the steering. Not sure if it's got better with age or if ive softened as i got older. It's still too floaty up front at low speed but higher speed is spot on. I'd fit an LSD if one was available. Guess my point is there is a lot of truth in "better the devil you know" and "grass is greener".
I think turbo has a lot to answer for tbh. I'm not a fan of diesel never will be, and I find blown petrol engines dull dull dull. Interesting that pistonheads often bemoan having to rev out an engine but that's part of the experience IMO. A point and shoot will never be a DSLR for reasons beyond picture quality.
I think turbo has a lot to answer for tbh. I'm not a fan of diesel never will be, and I find blown petrol engines dull dull dull. Interesting that pistonheads often bemoan having to rev out an engine but that's part of the experience IMO. A point and shoot will never be a DSLR for reasons beyond picture quality.
Jag XE or Alfa Guila?
Jag - I don't like the shape much
Alfa - soooo tempted, but not sure I'm brave enough.
And the 30d diesel 6 is, in my view, a masterpiece of an engine in terms of performance and economy and smoothness. It's my 3rd and nothing comes close to being similarly appealing.
Why doesn't anyone build something with the Alfa's looks, the BMW engine-gearbox-idrive system, the Jag's handling. I'd be sold.
Gut feeling is it's the electric steering. The e90 had heavier steering for sure but you'd get back from a long time behind the wheel and it just felt so together, fluid and connected. The f30 is light and sharp in standard mode but hasn't the organic feel. In sport mode it just feels like the system forces increased resistance into to. It's wooden.
I'm tempted to downsize to 18 inch rims and see if it makes a difference.
Jag - I don't like the shape much
Alfa - soooo tempted, but not sure I'm brave enough.
And the 30d diesel 6 is, in my view, a masterpiece of an engine in terms of performance and economy and smoothness. It's my 3rd and nothing comes close to being similarly appealing.
Why doesn't anyone build something with the Alfa's looks, the BMW engine-gearbox-idrive system, the Jag's handling. I'd be sold.
Gut feeling is it's the electric steering. The e90 had heavier steering for sure but you'd get back from a long time behind the wheel and it just felt so together, fluid and connected. The f30 is light and sharp in standard mode but hasn't the organic feel. In sport mode it just feels like the system forces increased resistance into to. It's wooden.
I'm tempted to downsize to 18 inch rims and see if it makes a difference.
bmwmike said:
Love my nasp petrol 3.0 f10 now.. but it took me a long time to warm to it especially the steering. Not sure if it's got better with age or if ive softened as i got older. It's still too floaty up front at low speed but higher speed is spot on. I'd fit an LSD if one was available. Guess my point is there is a lot of truth in "better the devil you know" and "grass is greener".
I think turbo has a lot to answer for tbh. I'm not a fan of diesel never will be, and I find blown petrol engines dull dull dull. Interesting that pistonheads often bemoan having to rev out an engine but that's part of the experience IMO. A point and shoot will never be a DSLR for reasons beyond picture quality.
I agree to an extent, there are some great turbo petrols though. Its all about how they are configured though, too much mid range punch makes them dull, but no mid range punch makes them feel lacking. A well tuned engine that maintains a linear power curve is possible with a turbo, but seemingly less popular. I think turbo has a lot to answer for tbh. I'm not a fan of diesel never will be, and I find blown petrol engines dull dull dull. Interesting that pistonheads often bemoan having to rev out an engine but that's part of the experience IMO. A point and shoot will never be a DSLR for reasons beyond picture quality.
Diesels are not my thing, been there done that. Effective, just not that interesting.
I went from a 335d E91 Touring to an F36 440i.
The 440GC is my first car in many years that I DO go out in, just for a drive. I have pushed it a little, but not seriously on the great scale of things. Yes, it is very competent - too competent for my mediocre driving skills.
Overall driving experience is better in every aspect than the dirty diesel. Even the fuel consumption is better in most cases.
Handles and rides better. Smoother, more comfortable. Quieter in the cruise, but a proper noise when the loud pedal is pressed.
Even the wife likes it!
I loved my Tourings (Had 2 x 335d and 2 x E46 330d), but the GC is better.
Much has been said of the ZF 8 speed box - it's an absolute peach. And I don't like auto's!
The 440GC is my first car in many years that I DO go out in, just for a drive. I have pushed it a little, but not seriously on the great scale of things. Yes, it is very competent - too competent for my mediocre driving skills.
Overall driving experience is better in every aspect than the dirty diesel. Even the fuel consumption is better in most cases.
Handles and rides better. Smoother, more comfortable. Quieter in the cruise, but a proper noise when the loud pedal is pressed.
Even the wife likes it!
I loved my Tourings (Had 2 x 335d and 2 x E46 330d), but the GC is better.
Much has been said of the ZF 8 speed box - it's an absolute peach. And I don't like auto's!
My cars are a generation behind, but I have the same feeling!
I swapped my 325ti for an E91 325i earlier this year and compared to the 325ti it feels a bit too refined, too quiet, too competent, and just a bit detached.
But I suppose that is what people in focus groups were asking for!
I swapped my 325ti for an E91 325i earlier this year and compared to the 325ti it feels a bit too refined, too quiet, too competent, and just a bit detached.
But I suppose that is what people in focus groups were asking for!
Mr Tidy said:
My cars are a generation behind, but I have the same feeling!
I swapped my 325ti for an E91 325i earlier this year and compared to the 325ti it feels a bit too refined, too quiet, too competent, and just a bit detached.
But I suppose that is what people in focus groups were asking for!
Don't drive an F or G generation BMW then, the current 5 series is so devoid of excitement it could be an Audi, Peugeot, Hyundai or anything. You can barely tell what wheels are driven as the steering is so lifeless. The car is so refined speed seems to be irrelevant and the autobox makes it point and squirt simple to drive. I swapped my 325ti for an E91 325i earlier this year and compared to the 325ti it feels a bit too refined, too quiet, too competent, and just a bit detached.
But I suppose that is what people in focus groups were asking for!
Very comfortable and refined though, lovely thing to waft on a motorway with. But I reckon a Skoda Superb would be too, or a Volvo S90 for that matter.
biggles330d said:
It made me think that for 90% of the time is it just too competent, too efficient and effective at what it does and too bland as a result unless you're really pushing on?
I feel the same. This is the direction where Audi have led and BMW have now followed. I spent some time in a brand new 530d x-drive recently. They have a twin turbo engine now and the 535d is no longer available.
The car was faultless, effortless brisk wafty acceleration at all speeds, light controls, comfortable, relaxing ...
But .. also a bit 'bland'.
If I have a quick car, I want it to feel quick. I want some character, a little bit of noise and perhaps the odd bit of drama.
We have somehow got to a point where everyone seems to want cars to be fast and boring!
I feel the same actually.
Last year I brought my 1st BMW a E46 touring 318i sport. Which you had to rev the tits off to get anywhere but that made you keep the speed in the corners. It had a lovely steering feel and I always made an excuse for a drive.
Now I am around 2 months into owning a 14 plate f30 touring 320d m sport auto. Which is fully loaded and a better car in everyway but I do not make excuses to go for a drive. It lacks any steering feel.
I dont know if it is because I have 19" wheels with run flat tyres where as the E46 had 17" wheels with non run flats. The car basically had new tyres when I brought it so once it is time for new tyres I will swap the set up.
Last year I brought my 1st BMW a E46 touring 318i sport. Which you had to rev the tits off to get anywhere but that made you keep the speed in the corners. It had a lovely steering feel and I always made an excuse for a drive.
Now I am around 2 months into owning a 14 plate f30 touring 320d m sport auto. Which is fully loaded and a better car in everyway but I do not make excuses to go for a drive. It lacks any steering feel.
I dont know if it is because I have 19" wheels with run flat tyres where as the E46 had 17" wheels with non run flats. The car basically had new tyres when I brought it so once it is time for new tyres I will swap the set up.
The Fiesta ST is a peach of a car for what it is.
I had a bit of a hoon in my 335xd today (live in the Yorks Dales so decent driving roads), and it was ok to do so.
I think the LCI SE suspension is quite ok.
I like sport steering too, deffo more feel, but also some weight.
In normal there is nothing there, you’d have to be a 5 year old child to need steering so light.
What is missing imo is a decent soundtrack. A proper exhaust and diesel noise should come through. A 6 cylinder modern tractor has more charm and a decent bellow and is full of character.
The seats could be firmer, the M3 seats are better.
A lot of info missing in the steering could come via the seat.
My old Z4 had similar steering feel but felt alive and much better with firm decent seats (they were still comfy after several hundred motorway miles so no real cost imo)
The power delivery is still diesely. If it had less torque/more power so you had a reason to rev it then great.
A remap to 360bhp with OEM torque held to higher rpm would be great imo.
I’m curious how Alpina make them so much better.
Steering is still electric? Is geometry the same on suspension?
I think you could make a 335xd etc pretty nice with the right mods (not what you can find out there)
But just buy an M3.
Or an older V8 M3 saloon.
Job done.
I had a bit of a hoon in my 335xd today (live in the Yorks Dales so decent driving roads), and it was ok to do so.
I think the LCI SE suspension is quite ok.
I like sport steering too, deffo more feel, but also some weight.
In normal there is nothing there, you’d have to be a 5 year old child to need steering so light.
What is missing imo is a decent soundtrack. A proper exhaust and diesel noise should come through. A 6 cylinder modern tractor has more charm and a decent bellow and is full of character.
The seats could be firmer, the M3 seats are better.
A lot of info missing in the steering could come via the seat.
My old Z4 had similar steering feel but felt alive and much better with firm decent seats (they were still comfy after several hundred motorway miles so no real cost imo)
The power delivery is still diesely. If it had less torque/more power so you had a reason to rev it then great.
A remap to 360bhp with OEM torque held to higher rpm would be great imo.
I’m curious how Alpina make them so much better.
Steering is still electric? Is geometry the same on suspension?
I think you could make a 335xd etc pretty nice with the right mods (not what you can find out there)
But just buy an M3.
Or an older V8 M3 saloon.
Job done.
I was really tempted with the G31 520d M-Sport Touring deals at £400 a month on interest free finance from BMW last month.
However, I knew within 10 mins in one that they are not for me.
I was thinking I would live with the 4cyl diesel as it is a car for wafting in and getting decent MPG, and we had that in our X3, once tuned to 220hp it is fine if a little unrefined, but in the new G30 even less of an issue in that respect.
But it was the steering, or complete lack of any feeling that put me off.
Much, much prefer the LCI E61 530d Touring I bought as a stop gap recently, so much so I think I am just going to keep it and get out of the whole new car game.
Sold the E350 estate recently too to buy a 1970s classic SL350, and was let down on that car, so in desperation bought a c220cdi estate locally for a grand and have to say that has amazed me at how good it is.
A few years back I had the M3 CSL, 535d Sport Touring and a 123d M-Sport on the drive, the best part of what? £100,000 worth of cars, and can't say I will ever do that again now looking at what I have now for what? £6k?
I could go and buy a toy, a cheap bit of Pork for £10k and still have a hoot.
New cars need to get more exciting, all they seem to be doing is getting more refined with better infotainment systems, hardly making you want to get your wallet out.
However, I knew within 10 mins in one that they are not for me.
I was thinking I would live with the 4cyl diesel as it is a car for wafting in and getting decent MPG, and we had that in our X3, once tuned to 220hp it is fine if a little unrefined, but in the new G30 even less of an issue in that respect.
But it was the steering, or complete lack of any feeling that put me off.
Much, much prefer the LCI E61 530d Touring I bought as a stop gap recently, so much so I think I am just going to keep it and get out of the whole new car game.
Sold the E350 estate recently too to buy a 1970s classic SL350, and was let down on that car, so in desperation bought a c220cdi estate locally for a grand and have to say that has amazed me at how good it is.
A few years back I had the M3 CSL, 535d Sport Touring and a 123d M-Sport on the drive, the best part of what? £100,000 worth of cars, and can't say I will ever do that again now looking at what I have now for what? £6k?
I could go and buy a toy, a cheap bit of Pork for £10k and still have a hoot.
New cars need to get more exciting, all they seem to be doing is getting more refined with better infotainment systems, hardly making you want to get your wallet out.
Yep genuinely appealing daily sporty cars are thin on the ground.
I could sink £40,000 into an M3 but know I’d find it a waste of money.
Even the ‘amazing’ E46 M3 was a bit of a let down imo.
Even that was too fast to enjoy the engine properly.
I’d agree that BMW are just starting to feel like any other bland car.
They’ve gone turbo and now starting fwd, won’t be long till they dump S6 engines and we’re stuck with a generic POS.
I could sink £40,000 into an M3 but know I’d find it a waste of money.
Even the ‘amazing’ E46 M3 was a bit of a let down imo.
Even that was too fast to enjoy the engine properly.
I’d agree that BMW are just starting to feel like any other bland car.
They’ve gone turbo and now starting fwd, won’t be long till they dump S6 engines and we’re stuck with a generic POS.
I have a 330d Touring X Drive thing on a 17 plate.
19’s and big brakes, it’s perfectly predictable once you understand it, and will bash miles out all day long while acting as a van/office. I also have a new M4 Vert, and always put the steering on normal, all other settings are to artificial.
The 330d is not a lot slower in the real world.
19’s and big brakes, it’s perfectly predictable once you understand it, and will bash miles out all day long while acting as a van/office. I also have a new M4 Vert, and always put the steering on normal, all other settings are to artificial.
The 330d is not a lot slower in the real world.
Mr Whippy said:
The Fiesta ST is a peach of a car for what it is.
I had a bit of a hoon in my 335xd today (live in the Yorks Dales so decent driving roads), and it was ok to do so.
I think the LCI SE suspension is quite ok.
I like sport steering too, deffo more feel, but also some weight.
In normal there is nothing there, you’d have to be a 5 year old child to need steering so light.
What is missing imo is a decent soundtrack. A proper exhaust and diesel noise should come through. A 6 cylinder modern tractor has more charm and a decent bellow and is full of character.
The seats could be firmer, the M3 seats are better.
A lot of info missing in the steering could come via the seat.
My old Z4 had similar steering feel but felt alive and much better with firm decent seats (they were still comfy after several hundred motorway miles so no real cost imo)
The power delivery is still diesely. If it had less torque/more power so you had a reason to rev it then great.
A remap to 360bhp with OEM torque held to higher rpm would be great imo.
I’m curious how Alpina make them so much better.
Steering is still electric? Is geometry the same on suspension?
I think you could make a 335xd etc pretty nice with the right mods (not what you can find out there)
But just buy an M3.
Or an older V8 M3 saloon.
Job done.
I have an F30 LCI 335d x-drive. Had it for 18 months now. Occasionally I feel it is a bit too competent, but overall I have no complaints. I don’t have any steering feel issues, nor issues with runflats (Pirelli P zero 20k miles, just over half worn), nor on standard suspension. In auto or manual the ZF8 box is superb, the only thing I would like is more engine-braking, guess I need a Nat asp for that (or an EV). Never lost grip in cornering, braking, or flooring it. Maybe drama suits some people - I just want it to quietly and quickly go about its job, snatching decent overtakes here and there, and completing journeys swiftly and comfortably. I had a bit of a hoon in my 335xd today (live in the Yorks Dales so decent driving roads), and it was ok to do so.
I think the LCI SE suspension is quite ok.
I like sport steering too, deffo more feel, but also some weight.
In normal there is nothing there, you’d have to be a 5 year old child to need steering so light.
What is missing imo is a decent soundtrack. A proper exhaust and diesel noise should come through. A 6 cylinder modern tractor has more charm and a decent bellow and is full of character.
The seats could be firmer, the M3 seats are better.
A lot of info missing in the steering could come via the seat.
My old Z4 had similar steering feel but felt alive and much better with firm decent seats (they were still comfy after several hundred motorway miles so no real cost imo)
The power delivery is still diesely. If it had less torque/more power so you had a reason to rev it then great.
A remap to 360bhp with OEM torque held to higher rpm would be great imo.
I’m curious how Alpina make them so much better.
Steering is still electric? Is geometry the same on suspension?
I think you could make a 335xd etc pretty nice with the right mods (not what you can find out there)
But just buy an M3.
Or an older V8 M3 saloon.
Job done.
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