E90 325i - intermittent EML, BMW quoting £6-10k!!
Discussion
Hi all,
This is my first post on here, so be gentle please ;-).
I bought an E90 325i back in Feb. It has 93k miles on the clock, is fully loaded and generally in great condition. More or less as soon as I bought it however, the EML light started to come on intermittently (the diagonally half-filled light). Because the fault has been there since I bought the car, I can't say with any conviction whether the car is running on reduced power and I don’t know if it’s misfiring (what does that feel like?). It certainly seems to perform OK, although is rough on idle sometimes. The history I’ve detailed below on the car shows that this has been an ongoing issue for the last 16,000 miles!
I took it to my local garage who plugged it into their generic diagnostics and could see no faults - no surprise there. They said it could just be an old code and reset the system - to no effect.
Anyway, after my local garage couldn't help - I bit the bullet and went to BMW themselves. They could see the fault codes and diagnosed a Cam Shaft sensor fault, fixed at a cost of £400. On the way home... EML light...! They looked again and told me the following: "we carried out function tests on the Vano’s and both working correctly via test plan. We removed vanos solenoid and carried out inspection found no contamination. We suspect a fault with the timing and will require further diagnostic to remove the rocker cover and check it may also require camshaft removal to check interment. This was quoted at £800+ just for labour time, and on the phone they told me that "if it is what they think it is, you could be looking at £6-10k for a new engine. I only paid £5k for the car!!
Rightly or wrongly, I’m sceptical about BMW’s position and so it's just been to a non-brand BMW specialist who did some work. I’m waiting for the details (it’s through the garage I bought it from). It was extensively test driven after this, with no light showing and returned to me. I also took it for a spin on delivery, pushed it to the limits etc etc, and no light. Then the next morning I was barely out of the drive and… ping, it comes on. When I drove it later on, nothing. My wife has driven it, nothing. And I drove it this morning – nothing. To say I’m frustrated is an understatement!!
My biggest worry is that by continuing to drive it, I’m setting myself up for a big issue down the line, or that BMW are right and it needs a new engine. I have the option to reject the car under sale of goods, but I’m reluctant because every other aspect of the car is great and it’s been looked after, new brakes, tyres etc as you can see below. Plus I haven’t seen one of this spec for sale since I bought it. Obviously all of this is irrelevant if the car is going to go bang on me in a few months!
Looking through the old paperwork, it’s had the following work done before I bought it:
May 2019, 93000 miles – work TBC
April 2019, 92500 miles – new cam shaft sensor (BMW) - £400
Jan 2019, 92000 miles – new rocker cover gasket - £452
Sept 2017, 85875 miles – went in for misfire and EML, new ignition coils on C3 & C4 - £92
Aug 2017, 85411 miles – went in for misfire when cold, remove and refit of fuel injector on C 6, 4 & 3. Fuel injector replaced - £700
Feb 2017, 83107 miles – Water pump, front and rear brake pads - £766
Sept 2016, 80635 miles – Oil service, heater motor, tyres - £750
Dec 2015, 76800 miles – went in for intermittent EML, power loss, erratic idle! Ignition coil C5, new spark plugs C5 - £180
I know it’s a long one – thanks for reading this far and for any help or advice you can offer. Cheers
This is my first post on here, so be gentle please ;-).
I bought an E90 325i back in Feb. It has 93k miles on the clock, is fully loaded and generally in great condition. More or less as soon as I bought it however, the EML light started to come on intermittently (the diagonally half-filled light). Because the fault has been there since I bought the car, I can't say with any conviction whether the car is running on reduced power and I don’t know if it’s misfiring (what does that feel like?). It certainly seems to perform OK, although is rough on idle sometimes. The history I’ve detailed below on the car shows that this has been an ongoing issue for the last 16,000 miles!
I took it to my local garage who plugged it into their generic diagnostics and could see no faults - no surprise there. They said it could just be an old code and reset the system - to no effect.
Anyway, after my local garage couldn't help - I bit the bullet and went to BMW themselves. They could see the fault codes and diagnosed a Cam Shaft sensor fault, fixed at a cost of £400. On the way home... EML light...! They looked again and told me the following: "we carried out function tests on the Vano’s and both working correctly via test plan. We removed vanos solenoid and carried out inspection found no contamination. We suspect a fault with the timing and will require further diagnostic to remove the rocker cover and check it may also require camshaft removal to check interment. This was quoted at £800+ just for labour time, and on the phone they told me that "if it is what they think it is, you could be looking at £6-10k for a new engine. I only paid £5k for the car!!
Rightly or wrongly, I’m sceptical about BMW’s position and so it's just been to a non-brand BMW specialist who did some work. I’m waiting for the details (it’s through the garage I bought it from). It was extensively test driven after this, with no light showing and returned to me. I also took it for a spin on delivery, pushed it to the limits etc etc, and no light. Then the next morning I was barely out of the drive and… ping, it comes on. When I drove it later on, nothing. My wife has driven it, nothing. And I drove it this morning – nothing. To say I’m frustrated is an understatement!!
My biggest worry is that by continuing to drive it, I’m setting myself up for a big issue down the line, or that BMW are right and it needs a new engine. I have the option to reject the car under sale of goods, but I’m reluctant because every other aspect of the car is great and it’s been looked after, new brakes, tyres etc as you can see below. Plus I haven’t seen one of this spec for sale since I bought it. Obviously all of this is irrelevant if the car is going to go bang on me in a few months!
Looking through the old paperwork, it’s had the following work done before I bought it:
May 2019, 93000 miles – work TBC
April 2019, 92500 miles – new cam shaft sensor (BMW) - £400
Jan 2019, 92000 miles – new rocker cover gasket - £452
Sept 2017, 85875 miles – went in for misfire and EML, new ignition coils on C3 & C4 - £92
Aug 2017, 85411 miles – went in for misfire when cold, remove and refit of fuel injector on C 6, 4 & 3. Fuel injector replaced - £700
Feb 2017, 83107 miles – Water pump, front and rear brake pads - £766
Sept 2016, 80635 miles – Oil service, heater motor, tyres - £750
Dec 2015, 76800 miles – went in for intermittent EML, power loss, erratic idle! Ignition coil C5, new spark plugs C5 - £180
I know it’s a long one – thanks for reading this far and for any help or advice you can offer. Cheers
I seriously doubt it will need a new engine from what you have described. Hopefully the specialist will come up with a less vague and more substantial answer than the dealer.
If it’s logged can sensor fault code ( worth finding out exactly what the fault code was) then you could be looking at a problem with the vanos hubs, or the vanos solenoids(they may have checked them for contamination but that doesn’t rule out if they are faulty and not just clogged up), if you no the exact fault code , you could try swapping the two solenoids around and see if the fault code changes- it’s a 5 minute job.
You may also have scored oil seals on camshaft seats - these supply the oil pressure to the vanos hubs and when they are scored the oil pressure leaks off.
Or even a stretched chain- retiming with the stretched chain back to what it should be is one way to fix it and cheaper then replacing.
If it’s logged can sensor fault code ( worth finding out exactly what the fault code was) then you could be looking at a problem with the vanos hubs, or the vanos solenoids(they may have checked them for contamination but that doesn’t rule out if they are faulty and not just clogged up), if you no the exact fault code , you could try swapping the two solenoids around and see if the fault code changes- it’s a 5 minute job.
You may also have scored oil seals on camshaft seats - these supply the oil pressure to the vanos hubs and when they are scored the oil pressure leaks off.
Or even a stretched chain- retiming with the stretched chain back to what it should be is one way to fix it and cheaper then replacing.
the_g_ster said:
That's some pretty eyewatering bills for not many miles.
Live code reading help?
I know, right. Fortunately I haven't paid for any of them as they were pre-ownership and the most recent ones are covered by the dealer. I just don't want my future bills to look the same going forward!! Live code reading help?
Working on live codes. Currently in central London without the car so I'll report back ASAP.
N53 then
I see it had new injectors on 3 cylinders only. They are supposed to be replaced in banks (1-3, 4-6) or entirely (1-6) depending on index number. You need to find out what the index is fitted across all cylinders but my bet is it needs injectors.
You mention not knowing if it's misfiring but then mention rough running. That's exactly how misfiring feels.
Being an early n53 there may be other issues. Needs someone who knows what they are doing with this engine and sadly they are hard to come by - bmw dealers are typically fitters/grunts and just follow the computers-says mentality, and don't understand how the engine actually works. On that note bimmerprofs are offering online diagnostics but you'll need to get a cable and get it plugged in. Check out their website and perhaps email them - really helpful.
Btw I'm assuming when it's running right it sounds OK, and not knocking etc. Timing chains stretching are not a known thing on this engine. Vanos issues are rare and usually just a solenoid. Injectors are the weak spot and also require strong spark (plugs and coils but sounds like they've been replaced).
I see it had new injectors on 3 cylinders only. They are supposed to be replaced in banks (1-3, 4-6) or entirely (1-6) depending on index number. You need to find out what the index is fitted across all cylinders but my bet is it needs injectors.
You mention not knowing if it's misfiring but then mention rough running. That's exactly how misfiring feels.
Being an early n53 there may be other issues. Needs someone who knows what they are doing with this engine and sadly they are hard to come by - bmw dealers are typically fitters/grunts and just follow the computers-says mentality, and don't understand how the engine actually works. On that note bimmerprofs are offering online diagnostics but you'll need to get a cable and get it plugged in. Check out their website and perhaps email them - really helpful.
Btw I'm assuming when it's running right it sounds OK, and not knocking etc. Timing chains stretching are not a known thing on this engine. Vanos issues are rare and usually just a solenoid. Injectors are the weak spot and also require strong spark (plugs and coils but sounds like they've been replaced).
ALEX115 said:
BFleming said:
Where is the car located (county / general area)? I'll help with code reading if I can.
Hey there. We're in Oxfordshire - Witney way...If it's come up with the half engine light it should store the codes. You just need someone to read it. Or buy yourself an OBD cable and install INPA on a laptop.
It definitely doesn't sound like something serious. In fact, when it comes on on my 335i I clear it on the go to get all my power back. Lol.
It definitely doesn't sound like something serious. In fact, when it comes on on my 335i I clear it on the go to get all my power back. Lol.
ALEX115 said:
Sept 2017, 85875 miles – went in for misfire and EML, new ignition coils on C3 & C4 - £92
Aug 2017, 85411 miles – went in for misfire when cold, remove and refit of fuel injector on C 6, 4 & 3. Fuel injector replaced - £700
So it has fairly old coils/sparks on C1/2/5/6, plus old injectors on C1/2/5? Rough idle on cold start, with otherwise normal performance is generally leaky injectors, it'll probably smell of fuel a bit as well as all the excess is burnt off on cold start. General test to is to pull them out after leaving overnight, then give them a smell, you'll either need to buy some tools, or leave it with your mechanic overnight.Aug 2017, 85411 miles – went in for misfire when cold, remove and refit of fuel injector on C 6, 4 & 3. Fuel injector replaced - £700
Personally, this all sounds a bit like a misfire, as has been said above, so if you have a laptop, buy a cable and install INPA, its very easy, just follow this guide: https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12... that will allow you to read the codes via INPA. Or find someone local that can pull them off for you with INPA/CARLY etc. If you are ever near Weybridge i can do that for you as well if needs be.
For the sake of £150, id replace all the coils/sparks with new ones from ECP (FWIW, i literally have no idea why people replace these in ones, just do the lot!), then ensure all the injectors are Index 11. You can generally pick them up 2nd hand on ebay for £80-110 on ebay if you are patient, or £160 new (Merlin Diesel Systems iirc) if you are not.
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