Steering ‘feel’ and connection to road - E9x to later models
Discussion
I still have my e36 bought in 1998 as my daily. I've had a few new cars along the way culminating in a Mustang GT in 2016. That had very light steering that was adjustable but never felt as connected as my old Beemer.
I test drove an Alfa Giulia Veloce the other day. An Italian equivalent of the 3 series.
Really wanted to like it but the really light steering ruined it for me. I did mention it in another thread and others said that new BMWs were similar.
I don't want to go back to non powered steering but I do like to actually feel what's going on.
As somebody else said, modern car designers appear to make cars for people that find driving an inconvenience.
I test drove an Alfa Giulia Veloce the other day. An Italian equivalent of the 3 series.
Really wanted to like it but the really light steering ruined it for me. I did mention it in another thread and others said that new BMWs were similar.
I don't want to go back to non powered steering but I do like to actually feel what's going on.
As somebody else said, modern car designers appear to make cars for people that find driving an inconvenience.
I had an E90, currently have an E46 and aF87, and my wife just let go of her F20 after 5 years. A good mix of hydraulic and electric to form an opinion over a decade of mixed use.
The new F/G series steering doesn't have the same feel, but its definitely more precise and has a better "torque vs speed" capability. When I worked as an EPAS engineer this was the thing the defined a good system, in short the ability to turn the wheel quickly when it matters, dodging children and such.
I think people get nostalgic about old stuff, and BMW hydraulic steering is one of them. It was slated as being average to poor in its day and in my view this hasn't changed. I don't drive my E46 and think much beyond it being a bit slow and dimwitted, but I do drive my M2 and enjoy the precision and lack of kick back. Yes comparatively it is numb, but that is one of many attributes you can judge steering by.
Don't get me wrong, I do happen to really like a lot of BMWs that happen to have hydraulic steering, but it's in no way a strong point that draws me to the cars.
The new F/G series steering doesn't have the same feel, but its definitely more precise and has a better "torque vs speed" capability. When I worked as an EPAS engineer this was the thing the defined a good system, in short the ability to turn the wheel quickly when it matters, dodging children and such.
I think people get nostalgic about old stuff, and BMW hydraulic steering is one of them. It was slated as being average to poor in its day and in my view this hasn't changed. I don't drive my E46 and think much beyond it being a bit slow and dimwitted, but I do drive my M2 and enjoy the precision and lack of kick back. Yes comparatively it is numb, but that is one of many attributes you can judge steering by.
Don't get me wrong, I do happen to really like a lot of BMWs that happen to have hydraulic steering, but it's in no way a strong point that draws me to the cars.
Shanksy87 said:
Don't get me wrong, I do happen to really like a lot of BMWs that happen to have hydraulic steering, but it's in no way a strong point that draws me to the cars.
I do remember the E9x M3 getting slated for its steering to be fair and that was hydraulic. I actually don't mind the electric steering in my Mini Cooper S and I expected to hate it, it is probably a bit too darty but it is very responsive for sure though.Epas systems do vary a lot though I reckon, and the 640d I had was genuinely terrible, but I have driven both a 2019 Volvo XC60 and XC90 and I really liked the steering in those.
I think a good feeling back through the wheel is an important part of the driving experience as your interaction with it can give you lots of useful information about how the car is responding and what grip you have. As others have said the earlier BMW hydraulic steering systems were far from perfect, but in general the newer EPAS systems feel like a backwards steps in terms of feel and interaction.
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In terms of the mechanics I'm guessing that the feedback/resistance you get back through the wheel is affected by the pressure at which the hydraulic system runs. If it is high then the steering will be light and you'll get less back through the wheel. Obviously there are a multitude of other factors in play such as gearing, suspension, geometry, wheels etc. when tuning this.
So the E46 I had was quite light about the centre and at low cornering speeds, and then weighted-up when you were cornering a bit quicker. It also had reasonable degree of front-end roll, which is informative in itself.
The 1 series I had used hydraulic servotronic, which adjusted assistance depending on vehicle speed. This was really heavy at low speeds so not great. At higher speeds it responded sharply, but it was still quite dead in some ways so maybe it was just poorly calibrated all round. The firm suspension with very little front-end roll probably exacerbated things.
From my understanding of the new EPAS systems there is nowhere in the system with any physical 'give' whereas there is fluid to compress in the hydraulic system. So that perhaps explains why you don't get the same feeling back through the steering wheel. I drove a mk3 Focus RS and it was completely devoid of feel.
Whereas the latest Porsche GT EPAS steering is said to be quite good in the dry at least. Would be interesting to know what they are doing differently (in hardware and software) to provide the feedback. Perhaps the fact it is not so good in the wet indicates that they are generating the dry feedback from sensor input, but I digress.
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In terms of the mechanics I'm guessing that the feedback/resistance you get back through the wheel is affected by the pressure at which the hydraulic system runs. If it is high then the steering will be light and you'll get less back through the wheel. Obviously there are a multitude of other factors in play such as gearing, suspension, geometry, wheels etc. when tuning this.
So the E46 I had was quite light about the centre and at low cornering speeds, and then weighted-up when you were cornering a bit quicker. It also had reasonable degree of front-end roll, which is informative in itself.
The 1 series I had used hydraulic servotronic, which adjusted assistance depending on vehicle speed. This was really heavy at low speeds so not great. At higher speeds it responded sharply, but it was still quite dead in some ways so maybe it was just poorly calibrated all round. The firm suspension with very little front-end roll probably exacerbated things.
From my understanding of the new EPAS systems there is nowhere in the system with any physical 'give' whereas there is fluid to compress in the hydraulic system. So that perhaps explains why you don't get the same feeling back through the steering wheel. I drove a mk3 Focus RS and it was completely devoid of feel.
Whereas the latest Porsche GT EPAS steering is said to be quite good in the dry at least. Would be interesting to know what they are doing differently (in hardware and software) to provide the feedback. Perhaps the fact it is not so good in the wet indicates that they are generating the dry feedback from sensor input, but I digress.
wax lyrical said:
Has anyone gone from the ‘analogue’ feel of the E9x cars to the newer models and not liked the change?
I have an E93 335i and when I drive newer BMW’s, they feel a bit too ‘light’ and disconnected from the road. Anyone else agree?
Exactly this, went from E93 335i with Birds B3 suspension to 440i with EDC, steering feels wooden, weird and imprecise, handling like a Tesco’s trolley by comparison.I have an E93 335i and when I drive newer BMW’s, they feel a bit too ‘light’ and disconnected from the road. Anyone else agree?
The E93 is essentially an assisted system so it weights up a regular unassisted system would. Electric variable systems have no direct connection between actuator (wheel) and steering, hence the lack of feedback.
Dave
Edited by DVandrews on Saturday 3rd October 15:28
I went from an E36 2.5 I6, to a F30 LCI 335d x-drive. Yes there was a difference In feel, of course, but probably just the AWD made a difference in steering feel. I had a F30 330 as a courtesy car, apart from the shocking fuel consumption indicated, the steering felt ridiculously light. The ride and feel of the 335d improved when I went from 19” Pirellis to 18” Goodyear EfficientGrip, both run-flats.
I had a couple of Z4 Coupes with EPAS for over 5 years, but ran a few different 3 Series with HPAS as dailies at the same time (E46, E91 and E90) at the same time.
The steering feel in all the 3 Series was so much better than in the Z4s. (But as my latest Z4 Coupe is an M it also has HPAS).
The steering feel in all the 3 Series was so much better than in the Z4s. (But as my latest Z4 Coupe is an M it also has HPAS).
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