N47 timing chain - what's the score?
Discussion
Family have an '08 E90 318d which has conked out on the M25 this evening with signs of timing chain failure.
Car has been serviced when needed (not BMW) and is 4 miles short of 164k. Given the well-publicised issues/recall what's the situation here - would BMW repair under goodwill or is the car hitting eBay spares and repairs tomorrow?
Car has been serviced when needed (not BMW) and is 4 miles short of 164k. Given the well-publicised issues/recall what's the situation here - would BMW repair under goodwill or is the car hitting eBay spares and repairs tomorrow?
Thanks all, didn't have much hope but thought I'd check given all the chain recall stuff I could find online was US/Ireland based.
With the condition the cars in - needs every new consumable ex. clutch which was done a year or 2 ago, no straight panel beyond the roof, an interior coated in dog hair/mud and nt being U:EZ compliant if expanded next year - I think its time (with them anyway) is up.
Think I'll be eyeing up £1k of petrol ford mondeo to keep them on the road
With the condition the cars in - needs every new consumable ex. clutch which was done a year or 2 ago, no straight panel beyond the roof, an interior coated in dog hair/mud and nt being U:EZ compliant if expanded next year - I think its time (with them anyway) is up.
Think I'll be eyeing up £1k of petrol ford mondeo to keep them on the road
Just out of interest, could you perhaps post at what mileages the oil was changed? Many will say that even "fastidious maintenance at BMW" involves excessive oil change intervals on many of their engines, especially if done elsewhere where the correct spec long-life oils are not used.
DaveZed said:
Just out of interest, could you perhaps post at what mileages the oil was changed? Many will say that even "fastidious maintenance at BMW" involves excessive oil change intervals on many of their engines, especially if done elsewhere where the correct spec long-life oils are not used.
Would be interested in this also I dont live with them and don't have the books to hand but it'll have been when it asked for it/at the times of the MOT so every 6-10k (earlier in its life when doing lower miles pa) but time between services maintained but think its now likely 10-15k
Seeing how my parents/brother drive it I'd be surprised if the turbo was ever used - they live 3 miles from the M25 and the car was used a couple of times a week when doing longer journeys.
Seeing how my parents/brother drive it I'd be surprised if the turbo was ever used - they live 3 miles from the M25 and the car was used a couple of times a week when doing longer journeys.
I think it would be extremely interesting to see proper stats around oil change intervals versus problematic engines, especially in the case of the N47, given the vast numbers of them out there. Is anyone aware of anyone having done such an investigation perhaps? 15000 miles is simply too long an interval in my opinion, especially for a diesel. I change oil every 10 000 km, so around 6000 miles.
The other issue at play is that when a manufacturer specifies oil change intervals, it is generally also making the (often erroneous) assumption that the mechanic doing the work after the warranty expires will continue to use the specific synthetic oils they specify. Most of these long intervals now in use are the result of advances in lubricant technology over the years. I generally do oil changes on my vehicles myself, but buy the oils from BMW. They are usually named something like "Longlife 04", or something similar. I've also noticed in the VW servicing details for my wife's Golf that they even specify different oil change intervals depending on whether a specific long-life spec oil was used vs a different spec.
I believe that not only the oil change intervals, but also the use of correct SPEC oils, is a factor often overlooked. This may very likely play a major role in engine longevity, especially where extended intervals are programmed into the vehicle's onboard maintenance software that kicks up the service reminders.
The other issue at play is that when a manufacturer specifies oil change intervals, it is generally also making the (often erroneous) assumption that the mechanic doing the work after the warranty expires will continue to use the specific synthetic oils they specify. Most of these long intervals now in use are the result of advances in lubricant technology over the years. I generally do oil changes on my vehicles myself, but buy the oils from BMW. They are usually named something like "Longlife 04", or something similar. I've also noticed in the VW servicing details for my wife's Golf that they even specify different oil change intervals depending on whether a specific long-life spec oil was used vs a different spec.
I believe that not only the oil change intervals, but also the use of correct SPEC oils, is a factor often overlooked. This may very likely play a major role in engine longevity, especially where extended intervals are programmed into the vehicle's onboard maintenance software that kicks up the service reminders.
I don't see how fuel filter can possibly impact timing chain issues, but diesel filter replacement interval on my 2009 2.0d X3 I believe is every 6th oil change, so every 90 000 km based on the 15 000 km BMW servicing intervals, Mine has only been changed once in the 180 000 km I've owned it, with no issues. It is mentioned that where diesel quality is poor it should be considered to replace the filter more frequently. For later engines I believe this was reduced to every 4th oil change, but I'm assuming oil change intervals are longer with these?
If the chain has broken, then there will be other damage. Broken rockers, fractured block where the chain has bunched up, broken cam carrier, buggered cam where a lobe has been punched around. All potential issues.
It's a £2000 repair minimum. Engine out, new chain and repair what's broken. If it's really f
ked, then another engine. The bill to fix it could easily run to £3000.
In short, the car is a write off. It's worth 1500-2000 as a runner. Clean it up and either Ebay it as is or get it scraped up and taken to Copart. If you can get £500 for it, you've done well.
It's a £2000 repair minimum. Engine out, new chain and repair what's broken. If it's really f
ked, then another engine. The bill to fix it could easily run to £3000.In short, the car is a write off. It's worth 1500-2000 as a runner. Clean it up and either Ebay it as is or get it scraped up and taken to Copart. If you can get £500 for it, you've done well.
smashy said:
I have had a big discussion with BMW about this they insist long life oil allows the long service intervals.But I always remember someone on here saying,that may be the case but in his opinion it was the fuel filter not being changed regularly enough that could cause problems.
From the US class action lawsuit."According to the plaintiffs, the plastic guide assembly for the primary chain is made of a defective polycarbonate material that becomes brittle and breaks apart, creating debris that lodges in the crankshaft drive sprockets. The debris can cause the primary chain to skip, letting the camshafts and crankshaft fall out of sync and possibly damaging or destroying the engine.
The second defect affects the secondary chain, which connects the oil pump and balance shaft assembly to the crankshaft. The materials in this assembly can’t stand up to high-resistance wear, the plaintiffs say. This defect causes the chain to elongate prematurely, slip, and damage the chain sprocket."
No amount of oil changes can fix what is basically a piss poor design.
I'm not sure what to believe. I've also seen the problem described as a machining defect whereby some sprockets have sharper, incorrectly shaped teeth edges which can damage the chain over time, exacerbated by poor oil quality. It only affects a relatively small percentage of engines. A chain guide polymer issue would affect each and every engine, at roughly similar age. That's clearly not the case. I've also seen mention of the chain guides themselves deforming, causing the chain not to run centrally, leading to premature wear. They were apparently redesigned at some point with removal of strengthening ribs which were implicated in causing the heat-induced deformation.
I just had my TC done on my 2010 f11 N47 as it was rattling. Good service history:
16,670 Vines (Oil)
32,970 Vines (Oil)
42,682 Vines
50,459 Vines (Oil)
52,595 Vines
68,408 Parawell (Oil)
103,012 Parawell (Oil)
114,358 Parawell (Oil)
Now at 117k odd.
Some long ish intervals between changes but pretty consistent. When I bought the car the TC was noisy on start up so agreed a lower purchase price. Had the TC done; all 3 chains for £1,150. Whilst in there it was noted that the turbo was duff and the clutch/flywheel were near the end of their loves so that bill quickly jumped to 2.5k!
All done now and car runs very well with peace of mind that with (every 8-10k) oil changes from now on the car will go for as long as I need it to.
Understandable that given their age not many owners would see it as economical to get this work done on their BMs..
16,670 Vines (Oil)
32,970 Vines (Oil)
42,682 Vines
50,459 Vines (Oil)
52,595 Vines
68,408 Parawell (Oil)
103,012 Parawell (Oil)
114,358 Parawell (Oil)
Now at 117k odd.
Some long ish intervals between changes but pretty consistent. When I bought the car the TC was noisy on start up so agreed a lower purchase price. Had the TC done; all 3 chains for £1,150. Whilst in there it was noted that the turbo was duff and the clutch/flywheel were near the end of their loves so that bill quickly jumped to 2.5k!
All done now and car runs very well with peace of mind that with (every 8-10k) oil changes from now on the car will go for as long as I need it to.
Understandable that given their age not many owners would see it as economical to get this work done on their BMs..
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