E46 330d. Newer 204bhp engine, How much more would you pay?

[kentmotorcompany]

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING:
You are in the market for a 330d. Lets for arguments sake say a 330d Sport Touring Auto. Around 2003/2004 depending on spec/mileage etc you can pay anything between £8-£12k.
As you may know in 2004 BMW introduced a newer 204bhp engine(from 184bhp) and more fuel efficent too, when they made developments to introduce the "535d" based on the same 3.0 unit. There were very few of these 204bhp engines built in 2004 due to the allocation for the new 535d taking up all the 3.0d units.
Im looking for some feedback from the buying public how you value it.
My question is this:
You have found 2 identical cars age/mileage/spec/colour/condition everything, except the engine, at the same dealer. You want the newer one. You know its rare. How much extra would you pay to have the better car????

The reason I ask, is I have just taken one into stock. As far as I can work out it is the only Sport/Auto/Touring on autotrader with the newer engine.

Just to clarify:
The mild facelift in early 2003 which gave the newer style wheels on the sport model, and 6 speed Gearbox on the Manual(not sure if Auto changed from 5 to 6 speed) does not mean it is the newer engine, as is a comman mistake. There are saloons on Autotrader where the seller claims 204bhp and the technical info show 184bhp.
Depending on build date relative to registration date, it is possible to have a 2004 car with or without the newer engine.

Edited by kentmotorcompany on Wednesday 11th February 20:53

[SJobson]

Are you sure the facelift didn't introduce the newer 204bhp engine? I tried a 2003/53 plate 330D Sport Touring a few years ago (at a main dealer) and I was assured it was the new engine.

Was it even that different to the 184bhp version? I was never aware of BMW launching a more powerful 3.0D in the E39, but apparently they did (193bhp or something), around 2002 (when the new steering wheel was put in).

ETA: Parkers says 1 March 2003 on for the 204bhp engine in the E46, and 4 Sept 2000 on (i.e. angel eye facelift) on for the 193bhp E39.

Edited by SJobson on Wednesday 11th February 23:14

[JNW1]

kentmotorcompany said:

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING:
Just to clarify:
The mild facelift in early 2003 which gave the newer style wheels on the sport model, and 6 speed Gearbox on the Manual(not sure if Auto changed from 5 to 6 speed) does not mean it is the newer engine, as is a comman mistake. There are saloons on Autotrader where the seller claims 204bhp and the technical info show 184bhp.
Depending on build date relative to registration date, it is possible to have a 2004 car with or without the newer engine.

Edited by kentmotorcompany on Wednesday 11th February 20:53

Are you sure? I thought the 6 speed manual box came only with the later 204bhp engine. I was also unaware that a 6 speed automatic was ever available with the E46; I think all E46 autos are 5 speeders with the 6 speed only arriving with the E90 and its derivatives.

[Fox-]

kentmotorcompany said:

Just to clarify:
The mild facelift in early 2003 which gave the newer style wheels on the sport model, and 6 speed Gearbox on the Manual(not sure if Auto changed from 5 to 6 speed) does not mean it is the newer engine, as is a comman mistake. There are saloons on Autotrader where the seller claims 204bhp and the technical info show 184bhp.
Depending on build date relative to registration date, it is possible to have a 2004 car with or without the newer engine.

Not true. ALL 'mild facelift' 330d's have the 204bhp engine - this means all the 6 speed manual ones.

[kentmotorcompany]

Like I said its a comman mistake.

I was a used car manager for a BMW dealer at the time, so yes Im sure.

See here:

Technical date for my car: http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www/cars/BMW/...
Technical data for another 2004 330d: http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www/cars/BMW/...

Even the CC is different. This information is loaded automaticly without any involvement from the seller, based on the reg number entered by the seller.

The Mild facelift with 6 speed manual box was to do with EU4 compliance, so was more widely publicised. The engine upgrade was barely mentioned when it happened.

If you have one of these cars another way to be sure is to speak to a BMW dealer who can look up the engine code. Like M54 or something, I dont remember the code, but I do remember it has TU after it, standing for Technicly Upgraded. The were a few of these newer engined cars registered in late 2003, on 53 plates.

The E39 Engine enhancement in late 2000 was the same engine, just slightly higher tuned for the bigger car, and did happen at the same time as the face lift.

Edited by kentmotorcompany on Thursday 12th February 08:21

[SJobson]

Fox- said:

Not true. ALL 'mild facelift' 330d's have the 204bhp engine - this means all the 6 speed manual ones.

Are you referring to the date when the headlights changed (on the saloons and Tourings)? I'm pretty sure the 6sp box arrived a year or so later, when the MV2 alloys arrived. I did think that all the E46s which came with MV2 alloys as standard had the 204bhp engine and 6sp (if they were manual) though.

Possible that the central database is wrong?

[mikey-r]

I have one of these, albeit an '04 and in SE spec. I must admit I didn't realise they were 'rare' as I thought BMW just upgraded the engine in late 2003 to the 204bhp unit across the board.

As to paying a premium.... I think you'd have to convince the buyer of it's rarity value. I have both (the 185bhp in an '02 Sport saloon) and there's a noticable difference in both power and application between the two units. This, I think, would be the main selling point rather than the 'rarity' value.

BTW - I paid £9800 for mine last September: it's mint condition with 73k, leather, FBMWSH, years warranty etc if that's any help and I think the 'sport' generally adds another £1000 to the value.

[Fox-]

SJobson said:

Fox- said:

Not true. ALL 'mild facelift' 330d's have the 204bhp engine - this means all the 6 speed manual ones.

Are you referring to the date when the headlights changed (on the saloons and Tourings)?

No. This was 2001. The 'mild' facelift which added the new 204bhp engine and the 6 speed manual box was in 2003. I think they gained MV2 wheels at the same time. I am convinced I am right.

[E21_Ross]

it was in 2003. my dad had a march 2003 330d 6 speed manual with the 204bhp engine. awesome car, plenty of torque, great economy, reliable as a wood burning stove. wouldn't want an auto though...the economy goes right down and less driver involvement. the 204bhp is the one you want, over 10% more power as well as better economy.

Edited by E21_Ross on Thursday 12th February 11:47

[kentmotorcompany]

Fox- said:

SJobson said:

Fox- said:

Not true. ALL 'mild facelift' 330d's have the 204bhp engine - this means all the 6 speed manual ones.

Are you referring to the date when the headlights changed (on the saloons and Tourings)?

No. This was 2001. The 'mild' facelift which added the new 204bhp engine and the 6 speed manual box was in 2003. I think they gained MV2 wheels at the same time. I am convinced I am right.

You are right about everything except the engine. Main facelift happened in 2001. Mild facelift (newer Wheels/6 Speed manual) 2003. Engine 204bhp 2004.

Like I say its a very comman mistake, I would wager half BMW sales staff who were around in 2004 wouldnt even know the exact facts on this one. And of course anyone selling one, has an incentive to beleive its the better engine, and therefore tell the customer that. How would they know any different.

Look at this guys ad: http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www/cars/BMW+...
He obvisouly believes he has a 204bhp car because its the 6 speed box, and I guess the person he bought it from told him so. But if you click on the technical data its the old engine.

The only way to be 100% sure is to speak to a BMW dealer and get them to confirm the engine code on a particular car. Which I now know to be M57 for old engine, and M57 TU for the newer one.

[H6CJF]

I have an '04/04 330d sport auto touring which I believe has the 204bhp engine (although I'm not sure exactly how I would be able to tell for sure)
As far as I know the autos are all 5spd. Mine has done 73,000 with fbmwsh, NAV/TV, Leather, Bi Xenons, S/roof etc etc and I paid 10k for it in Dec if that helps

I think the answer to the question is that not many people would be prepared to pay any extra for it but they would be more likely to buy it over and above the lesser engined car ... in other words it will just sell more easily, and in this climate that would be the most important thing for me. Keep the stock turning over otherwise the book drop will wipe aout any extra profit if it doesn't sell

[kentmotorcompany]

By the way, I know also know that the Auto box only ever had 5 speed on the E46.

[DJFish]

Having never driven the newer car I can't really comment on any perceived differences when driving, however if the perfornmance figures are anything to go by, what you gain with the newer engine you lose by having one more cog to shift.
I wasn't bothered by the 6 speed manual when I bought mine as the engine has enough torque to not merit a 6th gear, however it probably comes in handy on the motorway, don't know if there's any difference with the Autos.
And the older cars are easily tuned to liberate a few more BHP.
However you can't ignore the fact that punters are going to want the best specced car available and BMW wouldn't have changed it if it wasn't an improvement.
That's no help at all is it?

[SJobson]

kentmotorcompany said:

Look at this guys ad: http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www/cars/BMW+...
He obvisouly believes he has a 204bhp car because its the 6 speed box, and I guess the person he bought it from told him so. But if you click on the technical data its the old engine.

Who provides the Technical Data though? Surely there's more chance that someone made an error inputting data than there is that BMW would build cars randomly with the old spec engine?

Silver Grey was introduced as a paint colour at the 2003 mini-facelift, too, was it not? I'd always assumed all Silver Grey 330ds had the 204bhp engine.

ETA: even if the data comes from the DVLA, it may well be wrong. My old Scirocco was registered as an auto despite being resolutely manual, and my Audi S6 had some sort of error in the details too. If the data input monkey has a choice of which 330D to select (as insurance phone monkeys do), they're likely just to pick the first one unless they know there is some distinction.

Edited by SJobson on Thursday 12th February 12:51

[kentmotorcompany]

SJobson said:

kentmotorcompany said:

Look at this guys ad: http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www/cars/BMW+...
He obvisouly believes he has a 204bhp car because its the 6 speed box, and I guess the person he bought it from told him so. But if you click on the technical data its the old engine.

Who provides the Technical Data though? Surely there's more chance that someone made an error inputting data than there is that BMW would build cars randomly with the old spec engine?

Silver Grey was introduced as a paint colour at the 2003 mini-facelift, too, was it not? I'd always assumed all Silver Grey 330ds had the 204bhp engine.

ETA: even if the data comes from the DVLA, it may well be wrong. My old Scirocco was registered as an auto despite being resolutely manual, and my Audi S6 had some sort of error in the details too. If the data input monkey has a choice of which 330D to select (as insurance phone monkeys do), they're likely just to pick the first one unless they know there is some distinction.

Edited by SJobson on Thursday 12th February 12:51

Of course BMW would not build a car with an older spec engine. But it could and often does, gets built a long time before it get registered. The newer engineed car will depend when it was built, not when it was registered.
Ive always known the Autotrader tech info to be very reliable. The power and performence figures are based on the CO2 emission info, which I have never known to be wrong, and all the spec info come direct from the manufactuer.

[Fox-]

The information Autotrader provides is wrong, it is that simple. That 2004 Touring you claim is 184bhp actually has a 2993cc engine according to the DVLA.

I've done a bit more research using the registration numbers of a known 2002 330d with 184bhp engine, a known 2004 330d with 204bhp and a 2003 330d which I claim has the 204bhp and you claim doesn't.

2002 330d: 178g/km, 2926cc
2003 330d: 1776/km, 2993cc
2004 330d: 177g/km, 2993cc

There we go - 2003, new engine. Same time as facelift.

[mikez328]

kentmotorcompany said:

SJobson said:

kentmotorcompany said:

Look at this guys ad: http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www/cars/BMW+...
He obvisouly believes he has a 204bhp car because its the 6 speed box, and I guess the person he bought it from told him so. But if you click on the technical data its the old engine.

Who provides the Technical Data though? Surely there's more chance that someone made an error inputting data than there is that BMW would build cars randomly with the old spec engine?

Silver Grey was introduced as a paint colour at the 2003 mini-facelift, too, was it not? I'd always assumed all Silver Grey 330ds had the 204bhp engine.

ETA: even if the data comes from the DVLA, it may well be wrong. My old Scirocco was registered as an auto despite being resolutely manual, and my Audi S6 had some sort of error in the details too. If the data input monkey has a choice of which 330D to select (as insurance phone monkeys do), they're likely just to pick the first one unless they know there is some distinction.

Edited by SJobson on Thursday 12th February 12:51

Of course BMW would not build a car with an older spec engine. But it could and often does, gets built a long time before it get registered. The newer engineed car will depend when it was built, not when it was registered.
Ive always known the Autotrader tech info to be very reliable. The power and performence figures are based on the CO2 emission info, which I have never known to be wrong, and all the spec info come direct from the manufactuer.

You are a motor trader -no? Therefore why are you asking for individual car details on this forum? It sort of beggars belief as to your integrity? Yet another "Arfur Daley?" fishing for an ignorant punter?..... I know I'm right!!!

[kentmotorcompany]

Fox- said:

The information Autotrader provides is wrong, it is that simple. That 2004 Touring you claim is 184bhp actually has a 2993cc engine according to the DVLA.

I've done a bit more research using the registration numbers of a known 2002 330d with 184bhp engine, a known 2004 330d with 204bhp and a 2003 330d which I claim has the 204bhp and you claim doesn't.

2002 330d: 178g/km, 2926cc
2003 330d: 1776/km, 2993cc
2004 330d: 177g/km, 2993cc

There we go - 2003, new engine. Same time as facelift.

Well I only do this for a living, and have posted easily available evidence. Because you have typed it, its a fact now?

PM me these reg numbers and Ill check with BMW.

Anyway, does it really f***ing matter, just for aguments sake lets assume Im right so I can see how people feel about the value.

[Fox-]

kentmotorcompany said:

Well I only do this for a living, and have posted easily available evidence. Because you have typed it, its a fact now?

I didn't type it, thats direct taxation data from the DVLA. Thats the engine size on the V5 of each car. One of the cars is a September 2002, the other is a December 2003 and the final one is a 2004.

[quote]
Anyway, does it really f***ing matter, just for aguments sake lets assume Im right so I can see how people feel about the value.

Accuracy is important. How about you find us a 6 speed manual 2003 330d with a 184bhp 2926cc engine?

Obviously cars slip through nets but these are few and far between. So to answer your question of course I would pay more for a 204bhp model but that would be because it was a newer car.

[kentmotorcompany]

Fox- said:

kentmotorcompany said:

Well I only do this for a living, and have posted easily available evidence. Because you have typed it, its a fact now?

I didn't type it, thats direct taxation data from the DVLA. Thats the engine size on the V5 of each car. One of the cars is a September 2002, the other is a December 2003 and the final one is a 2004.

[quote]
Anyway, does it really f***ing matter, just for aguments sake lets assume Im right so I can see how people feel about the value.

Accuracy is important. How about you find us a 6 speed manual 2003 330d with a 184bhp 2926cc engine?

Obviously cars slip through nets but these are few and far between. So to answer your question of course I would pay more for a 204bhp model but that would be because it was a newer car.

DVLA is quoting BHP now is it?
Look Im pretty confident of my facts. Ive tried to support my claims with easily available evidence. Whilst some of that might be wrong(the CC might have nothing to do with it)
I do know for sure the only way to be 100% is to check the engine codes M57 = 184bhp, M57 TU = 204bhp, on any car in qeustion.

Even Glasses Guide quotes:
03/03 on = 6sp F/lift
04/04 on = EU4

So that makes my earlier statement about EU4 in 2003 wrong also.

But it 100% is still possible to have a car registered long after it was built. Making it possible for a technicly newer car, to be older(according to the reg date) than a technicly older car. If you get my drift.

If you really want argue this out until its conclusion, PM me the reg numbers Ill check the engine codes (not the same as the engine numbers) with BMW. Otherwise, Ill assume these cars dont exist, and you just cant face being wrong in a public forum. If Im wrong Ill apoligise. I have so far tried to show evidence on specific cars. General DVLA info does not really help without details of specific cars.