Discussion
I posted a thread a few months ago on here, but things have changed recently. Hope I'm not breaking any rules by doing this..
So I'm buying my first BMW next month, after waiting and dreaming about it for 6 years! An E36 coupe, in (hopefully) Alpine white. I'm a student though, but can afford the insurance with 2 yrs NCB. My question is, do I go for a 323, or a 328?
My fear is that the 328 will drink like there's no tomorrow (despite the double VANOS).
I'm also planning to tour Europe in it in 2011, so I intend to mod it so that it's comfortable enough to cruise at high speeds for extensive periods of time, but also feel at home(ish) on a track.
I was therefore wandering which is the best engine to go for that will give reasonable performance vs economy (as a student, that does unfortunately come into question), but once graduated and with a bit more cash to throw at it, I'll want to start upgrading it (in preparation for the Europe tour).
I've got £2.5k to play with, and I'd like to see some change so that I can make some minor mods earlier on.
And so the punch line: What should I go for?
Thanks,
Will
= )
So I'm buying my first BMW next month, after waiting and dreaming about it for 6 years! An E36 coupe, in (hopefully) Alpine white. I'm a student though, but can afford the insurance with 2 yrs NCB. My question is, do I go for a 323, or a 328?
My fear is that the 328 will drink like there's no tomorrow (despite the double VANOS).
I'm also planning to tour Europe in it in 2011, so I intend to mod it so that it's comfortable enough to cruise at high speeds for extensive periods of time, but also feel at home(ish) on a track.
I was therefore wandering which is the best engine to go for that will give reasonable performance vs economy (as a student, that does unfortunately come into question), but once graduated and with a bit more cash to throw at it, I'll want to start upgrading it (in preparation for the Europe tour).
I've got £2.5k to play with, and I'd like to see some change so that I can make some minor mods earlier on.
And so the punch line: What should I go for?
Thanks,
Will
= )
Edited by willE36 on Friday 24th July 23:18
OK, firstly I'm not sure how achieveable 350hp is, even in the 328i. I have never been into modding cars. I'm sure someone else will be along to help you on that front.
Secondly, I think you are getting your engines mixed up. The M54 engine was in the later E46 and the M52 used in the E36 (323, 328). There was also the M52TU which was used in the late E36s (323 and 328 again) and early E46s. This was basically an upgrade due to the nikasil issue. The M50 (I think the M50TU) was used in the early E36s (320, 325). So it depends how old the cars are you are looking at as to which engine it will have. I had an E36 323i with the M52 engine and it never had any sign of nikasil problems even on 114,000 miles. Some of these engines will have problems, some won't.
So, which one. Personally I would try and find a late 328i sport coupe if your budget will stretch to that or, failing that, probably one of the older 325i coupes. Actually, if you are going to mod the car, please don't find a nice straight example of the 328i sport as I would prefer these are left stock as they are rare enough as it is! Great cars and the straight sixes are brilliant engines. Watch for rust on the E36s and also abused examples. Many of them will likely have fallen into the "wrong" hands by now and may not have been cared for as they should.
Secondly, I think you are getting your engines mixed up. The M54 engine was in the later E46 and the M52 used in the E36 (323, 328). There was also the M52TU which was used in the late E36s (323 and 328 again) and early E46s. This was basically an upgrade due to the nikasil issue. The M50 (I think the M50TU) was used in the early E36s (320, 325). So it depends how old the cars are you are looking at as to which engine it will have. I had an E36 323i with the M52 engine and it never had any sign of nikasil problems even on 114,000 miles. Some of these engines will have problems, some won't.
So, which one. Personally I would try and find a late 328i sport coupe if your budget will stretch to that or, failing that, probably one of the older 325i coupes. Actually, if you are going to mod the car, please don't find a nice straight example of the 328i sport as I would prefer these are left stock as they are rare enough as it is! Great cars and the straight sixes are brilliant engines. Watch for rust on the E36s and also abused examples. Many of them will likely have fallen into the "wrong" hands by now and may not have been cared for as they should.
Edited by LC23 on Monday 20th July 09:08
A 323 being more balanced than a 328 ... hmm. I suspect that is a story bandied about by 323 owners who need to prove their steeds are as worthy. A 323 is not slow, a 328 is obviously the choice if you find a good one.
If you modify the car then you need to tell the insurers. 350 is more than an M3, so I fail to see how you will achieve this without forced induction, which will be costly. Why not learn how to control 200hp for a year or two and then upgrade to a more powerful BMW?
If you modify the car then you need to tell the insurers. 350 is more than an M3, so I fail to see how you will achieve this without forced induction, which will be costly. Why not learn how to control 200hp for a year or two and then upgrade to a more powerful BMW?
So, you're worried that the 328 will drink like there's no tomorrow..
You want to turn it into a GT car, comfy enough for long drives (10 hours or so)
Your goal is 350 hp
You've got £2.5k to play with, including mods
And so the punch line: What should you go for?
Here's my advise:
Do not try and turn it into a GT car - it is already comfy enough for long drives
To get to 350hp you'd need forced induction. And you're already concerned about fuel consuption. And you have £2.5k for car and mods. Save yourself the hassle and heartache and leave the car standard.
I short, get the nicest 328i Sport you can afford and enjoy a fantastic car
You want to turn it into a GT car, comfy enough for long drives (10 hours or so)
Your goal is 350 hp
You've got £2.5k to play with, including mods
And so the punch line: What should you go for?
Here's my advise:
Do not try and turn it into a GT car - it is already comfy enough for long drives
To get to 350hp you'd need forced induction. And you're already concerned about fuel consuption. And you have £2.5k for car and mods. Save yourself the hassle and heartache and leave the car standard.
I short, get the nicest 328i Sport you can afford and enjoy a fantastic car
Firstly, thanks for the answers guys,
LC23 - you're right, I did get them mixed up. Had focused so much on the 323 that I forgot the M52 was used elsewhere. Only realised last week that a 328 was within my budget (insurance wise) as well, but don't worry, I won't lower it, or chav it up. Promise!
I hadn't been considering the 325, as it was replaced in 1995 with the 323 and the 328, and has an earlier engine. Not sure the 325 received the M50TU? I know the 320 did though, but I'm avoiding that one (although it does sound the nicest of the lot IMO).
Targarama - I heard that comment from a friend. Didn't quite buy it at the time, as I've never found any evidence of that on the web, but thought I'd check on here, before completely dismissing it.
Just to clarify though, I'll be running it stock whils't I'm at Uni (maybe mod it a little - just enough to beat my mate's Audi TTS). There aren't that many options around in white though, mainly 4 pots - no thanks!
As for the Nikasil what problems would it encounter today? (Assuming the car had been driven on cheaper fuel (with higher sulphur content)?
LC23 - what kind of MPG did you get in yours?
= )
LC23 - you're right, I did get them mixed up. Had focused so much on the 323 that I forgot the M52 was used elsewhere. Only realised last week that a 328 was within my budget (insurance wise) as well, but don't worry, I won't lower it, or chav it up. Promise!
I hadn't been considering the 325, as it was replaced in 1995 with the 323 and the 328, and has an earlier engine. Not sure the 325 received the M50TU? I know the 320 did though, but I'm avoiding that one (although it does sound the nicest of the lot IMO).
Targarama - I heard that comment from a friend. Didn't quite buy it at the time, as I've never found any evidence of that on the web, but thought I'd check on here, before completely dismissing it.
Just to clarify though, I'll be running it stock whils't I'm at Uni (maybe mod it a little - just enough to beat my mate's Audi TTS). There aren't that many options around in white though, mainly 4 pots - no thanks!
As for the Nikasil what problems would it encounter today? (Assuming the car had been driven on cheaper fuel (with higher sulphur content)?
LC23 - what kind of MPG did you get in yours?
= )
willE36 said:
Targarama - I heard that comment from a friend. Didn't quite buy it at the time, as I've never found any evidence of that on the web, but thought I'd check on here, before completely dismissing it.
Just to clarify though, I'll be running it stock whils't I'm at Uni (maybe mod it a little - just enough to beat my mate's Audi TTS).
Try both - unless you're a racing driver I'll wager you won't be able to tell the difference in 'balance' as you call it anyway (unless one car has new suspension).Just to clarify though, I'll be running it stock whils't I'm at Uni (maybe mod it a little - just enough to beat my mate's Audi TTS).
Beat a TTS?! Hmm - you'll need an M3 to do that. This is a £30k 2008 design with forced induction, 4WD, and driver's aids. You'll need an M3 and to be a good driver to beat him (even if he's a crap driver). Much better to sell the BMW after Uni and buy something like an E36 M3, or maybe something like an MR2 Turbo - that should show him (so to speak).
All IMHO.
well, maybe not beat him, but give him a run for his money. I'm not competitive, it's only for a bit of fun. I just want a car that goes fast and is driver friendly. The whole modding thing is for after Uni, when I'll really build up the mileage.
I'll be stepping out of a 4cl FWD 1.1L, into a 6cl RWD 2.5 or 2.8 L.
Found these figures:
I'd found a 1997 323i manual, in white. Phoned up, but it's sold = (... Guess I'll have to carry on looking. I discarded the 325 due to the lack of VANOS, of which my understanding is it improves idling and smoothness and allows peak performance to be reached at lower revs resulting in less fuel being burnt. Am I right?
I won't be racing as such, but am thinking in the long run... I want to be overtaking (every once in a while) when I finally take it on the Autobahn... Not just be overtaken all the time. I've had enough of that in my 206.
I guess what I should be asking is, what's the difference in running a 328 compared to a 323? Especially in terms of MPG (unfortunately, as a student, I do have to worry about that). But thinking long term, when I graduate and have a bit more cash to spend on it, and MPG is less of a priority, which one would have more potential to up the performance, a 2.5, or 2.8?Displacement isn't the only thing that determines the potential of an engine, is it?
The 328 has higher costs associated with it, but packs an extra punch in relation to the 323. As subjective is this might be, is the extra punch worth the extra money?
= )
I'll be stepping out of a 4cl FWD 1.1L, into a 6cl RWD 2.5 or 2.8 L.
Found these figures:
| 323i | 328i | TTS |
|---|---|---|
| 168 HP @ 5500 rpm | 190 HP @ 5300 rpm | 268 HP @ 6000 rpm |
| 181 lb ft @ 3950 rpm | 207 lb ft @ 3950 rpm | 236 lb ft @ 2500 - 5000 rpm |
| 0 - 60 in 8 secs | 0 - 60 in 6.7 secs | 0 - 60 in 5.4 secs? |
I'd found a 1997 323i manual, in white. Phoned up, but it's sold = (... Guess I'll have to carry on looking. I discarded the 325 due to the lack of VANOS, of which my understanding is it improves idling and smoothness and allows peak performance to be reached at lower revs resulting in less fuel being burnt. Am I right?
I won't be racing as such, but am thinking in the long run... I want to be overtaking (every once in a while) when I finally take it on the Autobahn... Not just be overtaken all the time. I've had enough of that in my 206.
I guess what I should be asking is, what's the difference in running a 328 compared to a 323? Especially in terms of MPG (unfortunately, as a student, I do have to worry about that). But thinking long term, when I graduate and have a bit more cash to spend on it, and MPG is less of a priority, which one would have more potential to up the performance, a 2.5, or 2.8?Displacement isn't the only thing that determines the potential of an engine, is it?
The 328 has higher costs associated with it, but packs an extra punch in relation to the 323. As subjective is this might be, is the extra punch worth the extra money?
= )
Edited by willE36 on Monday 20th July 16:25
Unfortunately I couldn't tell you what MPG I was getting from the 323i as I never monitored it and didn't have an OBC. I did have an E46 328i for a short period and that was good on fuel (just over 30mpg) and I would imagine the 323i was slightly better due to it being a smaller engine and the fact it was in the E36 and therefore a lighter car.
With regard to the nikasil issue, I think the procedure is to get a pressure test done to check if all is OK. Doesn't mean it won't ever have the problem however. I suppose if you get an M52 engined E36 it's just a risk you will have to take.
As I said before (and others have said). Try and get an M52TU engined 328i sport coupe if you can.
With regard to the nikasil issue, I think the procedure is to get a pressure test done to check if all is OK. Doesn't mean it won't ever have the problem however. I suppose if you get an M52 engined E36 it's just a risk you will have to take.
As I said before (and others have said). Try and get an M52TU engined 328i sport coupe if you can.
I doubt the 323 is any cheaper to run at all to be honest. Parts or fuel consumption. the 328 has loads more torque helping it along.
They are both tweekable with good gains from just a manifold swap, the 328 being the better option in that respect giving you a potential 220 bhp.
As for the nikasil, its possible to check by looking at the engine. The replacement engines have a small ally tag on the side of the engine. difficult to see but its there. Ill try & take a picture of it to show you what you are looking for.
They are both tweekable with good gains from just a manifold swap, the 328 being the better option in that respect giving you a potential 220 bhp.
As for the nikasil, its possible to check by looking at the engine. The replacement engines have a small ally tag on the side of the engine. difficult to see but its there. Ill try & take a picture of it to show you what you are looking for.
Edited by cushT on Monday 20th July 17:39
the 328 would be the one to go for if you can find a good one
however be weary of the nikasil issues check the service history to see if the bottom end has been replaced, if you do find one that still has the nikasil bottom end it might not give you any trouble but it would be better to get one that has already had the work done, if the vanos screws up they can be expensive to fix.
the body will rust especially the rear arches which are quite expensive to sort out as they rot from the inside out there are good examples to be had for reasonable money and the sport is the one to have especially an early sport as they had an lsd instead of traction control.
they are good for the modifying though if you can get a hold of a 325 inlet manifold (m50 i think) get a remap done and an air filter your looking at around 220-240 bhp.
350bhp is alot to be looking for out of a 328 and will cost you alot of money you would be better off getting an m3 evo which has 321 bhp as standard and starting from there
most service parts can be quite cheap, sensors can be a bit of a pain in the arse sometimes they are reliable if looked after and will return about 30-35 mpg depending on how you drive
if you need anymore info speak to the guys on bimmer forums www.bimmerforums.co.uk they know their stuff and can point you in the right direction for finding a good one
however be weary of the nikasil issues check the service history to see if the bottom end has been replaced, if you do find one that still has the nikasil bottom end it might not give you any trouble but it would be better to get one that has already had the work done, if the vanos screws up they can be expensive to fix.
the body will rust especially the rear arches which are quite expensive to sort out as they rot from the inside out there are good examples to be had for reasonable money and the sport is the one to have especially an early sport as they had an lsd instead of traction control.
they are good for the modifying though if you can get a hold of a 325 inlet manifold (m50 i think) get a remap done and an air filter your looking at around 220-240 bhp.
350bhp is alot to be looking for out of a 328 and will cost you alot of money you would be better off getting an m3 evo which has 321 bhp as standard and starting from there
most service parts can be quite cheap, sensors can be a bit of a pain in the arse sometimes they are reliable if looked after and will return about 30-35 mpg depending on how you drive
if you need anymore info speak to the guys on bimmer forums www.bimmerforums.co.uk they know their stuff and can point you in the right direction for finding a good one
Edited by disco!!!! on Monday 20th July 21:09
Edited by disco!!!! on Monday 20th July 21:10
thanks guys, big help...
What year was the 328i Sport? Can't find info on it anywhere...
Found a couple of 328i's on PH... one in Estoril Blue?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I though Estoril was only available on the M3.
Also found one with FK Coil overs fitted. How respectable are these? The car seems in good nick. Can't find the link for it though..
Disco!!!, thanks for the tip, will ask on there, too.
= )
What year was the 328i Sport? Can't find info on it anywhere...
Found a couple of 328i's on PH... one in Estoril Blue?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I though Estoril was only available on the M3.
Also found one with FK Coil overs fitted. How respectable are these? The car seems in good nick. Can't find the link for it though..
Disco!!!, thanks for the tip, will ask on there, too.
= )
I don't think you'd stand a chance of seeing which way a TTS goes.
MPG similar for both engines. (I get 40mpg from my 1999 523i going steady)
for 350bhp for under £2,500 I think you need to look Japanese (and still it'll be difficult).
Second thoughts, you might get a 750il with roughly that power for the money. Good luck fuelling that!
MPG similar for both engines. (I get 40mpg from my 1999 523i going steady)
for 350bhp for under £2,500 I think you need to look Japanese (and still it'll be difficult).
Second thoughts, you might get a 750il with roughly that power for the money. Good luck fuelling that!
Insurance prices have gone up again... the good for nothing money grabby b*****s!
Choice is limited to the 323, so 170 HP it is!
28 days to go!
Hopefully should be enough to find one, and get rid of my Pug!
With limited choice though, should be easier to source a later model (with less choice, I can't be too picky).
Can't wait to move out the Alpina alloys which have been sitting in my shed since November! Will post up the pics when I get the pink slips (so to speak) to my next auto!
= )
Choice is limited to the 323, so 170 HP it is!
28 days to go!
Hopefully should be enough to find one, and get rid of my Pug!
With limited choice though, should be easier to source a later model (with less choice, I can't be too picky).
Can't wait to move out the Alpina alloys which have been sitting in my shed since November! Will post up the pics when I get the pink slips (so to speak) to my next auto!
= )
willE36 said:
Insurance prices have gone up again... the good for nothing money grabby b*****s!
Choice is limited to the 323, so 170 HP it is!
28 days to go!
Hopefully should be enough to find one, and get rid of my Pug!
With limited choice though, should be easier to source a later model (with less choice, I can't be too picky).
Can't wait to move out the Alpina alloys which have been sitting in my shed since November! Will post up the pics when I get the pink slips (so to speak) to my next auto!
= )
Insurers have to weigh the risks, but I agree it is frustrating if their rates keep changing. They do like to nickel and dime you as well - any changes often attract an 'administration charge'. My partner, who is middle aged with a good record, just had to pay an increased premium for her SP30 35mph speeding offence.Choice is limited to the 323, so 170 HP it is!
28 days to go!
Hopefully should be enough to find one, and get rid of my Pug!
With limited choice though, should be easier to source a later model (with less choice, I can't be too picky).
Can't wait to move out the Alpina alloys which have been sitting in my shed since November! Will post up the pics when I get the pink slips (so to speak) to my next auto!
= )
Sorry to say this, but as soon as you put Alpina alloys on a 323 you need to tell your insurers and they may charge an additional premium. This is because you are modifying/enhancing the car.
Targarama said:
Sorry to say this, but as soon as you put Alpina alloys on a 323 you need to tell your insurers and they may charge an additional premium. This is because you are modifying/enhancing the car.
If the car I buy comes with non standard alloys, then does it still matter? I mean, 13 odd years after it rolled off the production line, it's bound to have had a mod of some sort in its life time.Also, what engine did the 1999 523 have in it? Was it the M52B25? or was it the later M54?
= )
willE36 said:
If the car I buy comes with non standard alloys, then does it still matter? I mean, 13 odd years after it rolled off the production line, it's bound to have had a mod of some sort in its life time.
If they are obviously not standard, the insurers will likely try to claim this as an undeclared mod and avoid a payout. Reading you first post I can help but feeling the E36 isn't going to do everything you want and not within budget.
350hp not likely to happen without some serious money which IMHO would be wasted on any £2.5k car. as others have said if you want 350hp from an E36 the M3 is likely to be the most cost effective way of doing it.
I would also expect it to be expensive to get an E36 to the point at which it was a good trackcar and this would impact on the comfort for the 10 hour long drives. I took my E36 evo on the track and wasn't that impressed, it was better after £1000 worth of coilovers.
350hp not likely to happen without some serious money which IMHO would be wasted on any £2.5k car. as others have said if you want 350hp from an E36 the M3 is likely to be the most cost effective way of doing it.
I would also expect it to be expensive to get an E36 to the point at which it was a good trackcar and this would impact on the comfort for the 10 hour long drives. I took my E36 evo on the track and wasn't that impressed, it was better after £1000 worth of coilovers.
As for picking between the 323 and the 328 - i'd personally go for the 328i sport - if your wantin it for performance it comes with the LSD, 241bhp? but its still good on fuel - if driven correctly it will return some impressive MPG - watch for cooling issues - head gaskets are common place on these cars, as are water pumps and viscous fans.
Just try and find one with good service history thats been driven sensibly - ish and your onto a winner,
As for performance - one of the quickest and easiest mods is to fit the 325 intake plenum - it has bigger chambers.. however it does dramatically increase fuel consumption....
Then when you get bored with your E36.... buy the real deal E30 lmao
Just try and find one with good service history thats been driven sensibly - ish and your onto a winner,
As for performance - one of the quickest and easiest mods is to fit the 325 intake plenum - it has bigger chambers.. however it does dramatically increase fuel consumption....
Then when you get bored with your E36.... buy the real deal E30 lmao
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