Braking in bends advice
Discussion
I had it drummed into me during DAS training that brakes + corners do not mix, which is fine.
Howvever, it is unavoidable on the approach to sweeping bends near roundabouts etc. I'm finding it difficult to get the braking right for this particular bend. Its an NSL approaching a 40mph roundabout where I usually have to stop dead or at least slowly (as the entrance to the right has poor visibility).
In the car, its very easy to brake safely from 60>20 as you round the bend. On the bike, it seems to want to sit up and understeer into the oncoming lane. As a result, I'm a bit paranoid and brake really early, more so than most cars!
Any tips? Its a BMW F800S with very good ABS brakes btw. I suspect the problem is in my head.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=llandudno&hl=e...
EDIT - Just looked at the link, it is actually a bend honest!!!
Howvever, it is unavoidable on the approach to sweeping bends near roundabouts etc. I'm finding it difficult to get the braking right for this particular bend. Its an NSL approaching a 40mph roundabout where I usually have to stop dead or at least slowly (as the entrance to the right has poor visibility).
In the car, its very easy to brake safely from 60>20 as you round the bend. On the bike, it seems to want to sit up and understeer into the oncoming lane. As a result, I'm a bit paranoid and brake really early, more so than most cars!
Any tips? Its a BMW F800S with very good ABS brakes btw. I suspect the problem is in my head.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=llandudno&hl=e...
EDIT - Just looked at the link, it is actually a bend honest!!!
This fundamentally comes under the heading of trail braking.
To a certain extent the chassis dictates the behaviour of the bike if you brake whilst corning. Some will always try to stand up - some are more neutral...
On a bike like the BM - I would try using more rear break to balance the stand up effect.
Try also relaxing your grip and weighting up the peg on the side you are turning to.
To a certain extent the chassis dictates the behaviour of the bike if you brake whilst corning. Some will always try to stand up - some are more neutral...
On a bike like the BM - I would try using more rear break to balance the stand up effect.
Try also relaxing your grip and weighting up the peg on the side you are turning to.
I ride a GS 1200Adv, and agree with above using more back brake. Also consider going down a gear early and use the engine braking to slow you down. If you get the gear right the bike will settle itself down.
The rule when approaching a roundabout is always prepair to stop but looking to go !!!
The rule when approaching a roundabout is always prepair to stop but looking to go !!!
NSL would be a maximum of 60MPH, not a minimum. If you know the roundabout is ahead, start bringing your speed down, drop a gear, and feather the brakes and keep looking through the corner. Neither of those should cause the bike to stand up assuming it is good working order.
I will probably get a slating for this, but I don't bother too much about speed limits. I ride at a speed I feel comfortable with...always. There are many NSL roads I have ridden on that I don't feel safe riding more than 40-45MPH, some even less. Road layout (curve approaching a roundabout
), road surface/conditions, blind corners and traffic etc. They dictate my speed, not a sign on a post.
If 60MPH is causing you to be paranoid and excessively brake or whatever, slow it down, go at a speed you feel safe with. If someone behind you doesn't like that, too bad, they will find a way around you if they are as good a driver as they think they are. I can guarantee you that not one of them would stop, if you happen to over cook a corner, and apologise for pressuring you into going faster than you felt safe doing.
I will probably get a slating for this, but I don't bother too much about speed limits. I ride at a speed I feel comfortable with...always. There are many NSL roads I have ridden on that I don't feel safe riding more than 40-45MPH, some even less. Road layout (curve approaching a roundabout
), road surface/conditions, blind corners and traffic etc. They dictate my speed, not a sign on a post.If 60MPH is causing you to be paranoid and excessively brake or whatever, slow it down, go at a speed you feel safe with. If someone behind you doesn't like that, too bad, they will find a way around you if they are as good a driver as they think they are. I can guarantee you that not one of them would stop, if you happen to over cook a corner, and apologise for pressuring you into going faster than you felt safe doing.
redtwin said:
NSL would be a maximum of 60MPH, not a minimum. If you know the roundabout is ahead, start bringing your speed down, drop a gear, and feather the brakes and keep looking through the corner. Neither of those should cause the bike to stand up assuming it is good working order.
I will probably get a slating for this, but I don't bother too much about speed limits. I ride at a speed I feel comfortable with...always. There are many NSL roads I have ridden on that I don't feel safe riding more than 40-45MPH, some even less. Road layout (curve approaching a roundabout), road surface/conditions, blind corners and traffic etc. They dictate my speed, not a sign on a post.
If 60MPH is causing you to be paranoid and excessively brake or whatever, slow it down, go at a speed you feel safe with. If someone behind you doesn't like that, too bad, they will find a way around you if they are as good a driver as they think they are. I can guarantee you that not one of them would stop, if you happen to over cook a corner, and apologise for pressuring you into going faster than you felt safe doing.
Its a Limit, not a target !!I will probably get a slating for this, but I don't bother too much about speed limits. I ride at a speed I feel comfortable with...always. There are many NSL roads I have ridden on that I don't feel safe riding more than 40-45MPH, some even less. Road layout (curve approaching a roundabout
), road surface/conditions, blind corners and traffic etc. They dictate my speed, not a sign on a post.If 60MPH is causing you to be paranoid and excessively brake or whatever, slow it down, go at a speed you feel safe with. If someone behind you doesn't like that, too bad, they will find a way around you if they are as good a driver as they think they are. I can guarantee you that not one of them would stop, if you happen to over cook a corner, and apologise for pressuring you into going faster than you felt safe doing.
Two posters recommending using the rear brake on a bend? Hmmm - Can't say I agree with that at all. Rear brakes and corners, especially if wet are a recipe for disaster!
I assume you know about counter steering right?
Assuming you are counter steering? - I think you just need to put more faith in your tyres and relax your grip.
I assume you know about counter steering right?
Assuming you are counter steering? - I think you just need to put more faith in your tyres and relax your grip.
The degree of the bend, the speed of the bike and the amount of rear brake being used are the issues I would think. Nothing wrong with using rear (or front) in a bend, even in the wet, if the above are are conducive to it.
I don't think the OP would be here if he wasn't counter-steering, even if he wasn't aware he was doing it.
I don't think the OP would be here if he wasn't counter-steering, even if he wasn't aware he was doing it.
also, no offence intended but I wouldn't call that approach to the roundabout a bend at all. Go to an empty car park and have a pootle around and try braking gently while cornering and moving your weight around. See what feels right, and transfer to the road.
When I was first riding on my 125 and er5 I used to almost (in my mind) do a mini motorcycle gymkhana in a big empty car park near me. Just slaloms, fast changes in direction, slow tight turns, braking and cornering etc... taught me loads about bike handling.
When I was first riding on my 125 and er5 I used to almost (in my mind) do a mini motorcycle gymkhana in a big empty car park near me. Just slaloms, fast changes in direction, slow tight turns, braking and cornering etc... taught me loads about bike handling.
[quote=Dr Doofenshmirtz]Two posters recommending using the rear brake on a bend? Hmmm - Can't say I agree with that at all. Rear brakes and corners, especially if wet are a recipe for disaster
No it's not, it's the safest way to slow a bike down if your entry speed is too high, even if it's wet.
It all depends how much "feel" you have in your foot.
No it's not, it's the safest way to slow a bike down if your entry speed is too high, even if it's wet.
It all depends how much "feel" you have in your foot.
jackh707 said:
also, no offence intended but I wouldn't call that approach to the roundabout a bend at all.
Ha! I knew someone would say that. When I look at it on google, you're right, but in real life it comes after the crest of a hill after the end of an overtaking lane. Visibility is great over the top, but the roundabout comes up all too quickly at 60mph (or more if I'm in the Z4 and have just finished overtaking 
)Thanks for the advice on trail braking, just been doing a bit of googling on it.
The BM has ABS, and I've not managed to skid even through my ham fisted emergency brake in the wet during mod 1. It should be OK for a bit of trail braking.
I know that road. It is where I'm from originally and compared to what you've got just a few miles south it shouldn't really require any thought at all!!!!!
You mention DAS so I'm assuming you did it recently and the BMW is your first big bike. As others have said countersteering is something you will be doing. You need to move it from a subconcious act to something you actually think about.
So if you don't know what we are talking about then do some googling. Then go and enjoy the roads you lucky so and so. I now live in the South East and there is no comparison.
You mention DAS so I'm assuming you did it recently and the BMW is your first big bike. As others have said countersteering is something you will be doing. You need to move it from a subconcious act to something you actually think about.
So if you don't know what we are talking about then do some googling. Then go and enjoy the roads you lucky so and so. I now live in the South East and there is no comparison.
Edited by _gez_ on Friday 26th August 22:29
I hate to say it, but I have always been of the view that you apply all your main braking in a straight line. A little light featuring of the rear brake and using the engine to continue slowing the bike should not be and issue to bring the bike to a gentle rest at the junction.
If you do need to apply heavier braking I would suggest you try straightening the bike up through the corner.
Too much front braking will cause the front to lose grip and fall away. Too my rear braking will cause the rear to step out. So all in moderation with the engine.
The key thing with cornering is set the bike up before you enter. Per preparation to the corner is all important. Fast in often means slow out if you make it, slow in means fast out.
Have you thought about doing an enhanced riding day?
I have almost done 4800 miles since getting my first bike since doing my test and have only had the bike a few months. I feel confident on the bike, which is a big 1731cc cruiser. It has been a bit of a steep learning curve drone the 500cc bike I was on for my das. But now that I am confident on the bike I am looking forward to some continuation training. Ok it does cost, but you can't put a price on your life.
I am sure that there is still so much more that I could learn.
If you do need to apply heavier braking I would suggest you try straightening the bike up through the corner.
Too much front braking will cause the front to lose grip and fall away. Too my rear braking will cause the rear to step out. So all in moderation with the engine.
The key thing with cornering is set the bike up before you enter. Per preparation to the corner is all important. Fast in often means slow out if you make it, slow in means fast out.
Have you thought about doing an enhanced riding day?
I have almost done 4800 miles since getting my first bike since doing my test and have only had the bike a few months. I feel confident on the bike, which is a big 1731cc cruiser. It has been a bit of a steep learning curve drone the 500cc bike I was on for my das. But now that I am confident on the bike I am looking forward to some continuation training. Ok it does cost, but you can't put a price on your life.
I am sure that there is still so much more that I could learn.
_gez_ said:
I know that road. It is where I'm from originally and compared to what you've got just a few miles south it shouldn't really require any thought at all!!!!!
You mention DAS so I'm assuming you did it recently and the BMW is your first big bike. As others have said countersteering is something you will be doing. You need to move it from a subconcious act to something you actually think about.
So if you don't know what we are talking about then do some googling. Then go and enjoy the roads you lucky so and so. I now live in the South East and there is no comparison.
Cheers gez, I'm new here in Llandudno, moved in with my welsh girlfriend 4 weeks ago! The roads to the south are fantastic, and I keep discovering new little B roads and unclassifieds. Basically, Snowdonia is my playground (whilst the weather is nice anyway!)You mention DAS so I'm assuming you did it recently and the BMW is your first big bike. As others have said countersteering is something you will be doing. You need to move it from a subconcious act to something you actually think about.
So if you don't know what we are talking about then do some googling. Then go and enjoy the roads you lucky so and so. I now live in the South East and there is no comparison.
Edited by _gez_ on Friday 26th August 22:29
As for countersteering, yep, fine in theory, less so when actively trying to do it. If I'm braking into a LH bend, I'm pressuring the brake lever whilst applying forwards bar pressure to the same side????
Still struggling to see what effect the trail braking has.....hmm...I'll come back to it tomorrow after the Ruddles has worn off.
cheadle hulme said:
As for countersteering, yep, fine in theory, less so when actively trying to do it. If I'm braking into a LH bend, I'm pressuring the brake lever whilst applying forwards bar pressure to the same side????
Err, no.You would apply forward pressure to the bar on the same side that you are leaning. So LH bend, push/apply forward pressure on the LH bar. RH bend, push/apply forward pressure on the RH bar. Brake lever has no effect on those actions. You squeeze the lever with you fingers, you push on the bar with you palms.
The "counter-steering" term comes from the fact that you are turning the steering to the right (forward pressure on the left) in order for the bike to lean to the left and vice versa.
Who was it that said they were sure you were counter-steering earlier?.
Dr Doofenshmirtz said:
Two posters recommending using the rear brake on a bend? Hmmm - Can't say I agree with that at all. Rear brakes and corners, especially if wet are a recipe for disaster!
Since when? Otherwise I'm doing something very, very wrong. Sounds like you're scared of the rear brake as I'm sure most will agree you would want to be using the rear on a wet corner if anything before grabbing the front.I am happy to be proved wrong being relatively new to bikes but if I had to use any braking in corners, the rear brake would be my first choice.
3doorPete said:
This fundamentally comes under the heading of trail braking.
To a certain extent the chassis dictates the behaviour of the bike if you brake whilst corning. Some will always try to stand up - some are more neutral...
On a bike like the BM - I would try using more rear break to balance the stand up effect.
Try also relaxing your grip and weighting up the peg on the side you are turning to.
Weighting a peg, either peg, will make absolutely no difference to your level of grip when leaning the bike over.To a certain extent the chassis dictates the behaviour of the bike if you brake whilst corning. Some will always try to stand up - some are more neutral...
On a bike like the BM - I would try using more rear break to balance the stand up effect.
Try also relaxing your grip and weighting up the peg on the side you are turning to.
Its on tyres, not skis...
Snapper7 said:
I hate to say it, but I have always been of the view that you apply all your main braking in a straight line. A little light featuring of the rear brake and using the engine to continue slowing the bike should not be and issue to bring the bike to a gentle rest at the junction.
If you do need to apply heavier braking I would suggest you try straightening the bike up through the corner.
Too much front braking will cause the front to lose grip and fall away. Too my rear braking will cause the rear to step out. So all in moderation with the engine.
The key thing with cornering is set the bike up before you enter. Per preparation to the corner is all important. Fast in often means slow out if you make it, slow in means fast out.
I agree with the above that Snapper 7 has said. Your aim should be to get the speed of the bike set up on approach to the bend, so that you can maintain a positive throttle (maintaining your speed throughout the bend) and then gradually applying power on exit as the bike straightens up. If you do need to apply heavier braking I would suggest you try straightening the bike up through the corner.
Too much front braking will cause the front to lose grip and fall away. Too my rear braking will cause the rear to step out. So all in moderation with the engine.
The key thing with cornering is set the bike up before you enter. Per preparation to the corner is all important. Fast in often means slow out if you make it, slow in means fast out.
If you must lose speed mid bend, it is best to do so with gentle use of the rear brake and making use of engine braking. I find I can trail brake a little going into bends, but it's not something I'd encourage!
As others have eluded - if you think you can't make a bend, provided it's not wet/greasy or you're on a man hole cover/overbanding etc, then your tyres have more grip than you think. Look to the exit of the bend, give the inside bar a GENTLE push and keep going. Panicking will upright the bike and you'll never make the turn.
Your tyres can only grip so much when accelerating, braking or turning. Doing more of one leaves less grip for the others!
Get yourself some further training - it's an eye opener
Rubin215 said:
Weighting a peg, either peg, will make absolutely no difference to your level of grip when leaning the bike over.
Its on tyres, not skis...
It won't affect the amount of mechanical grip, no. But you can change the angle of the force of the bikes mass on to the road, thus increasing your margin before overcoming the grip or get that grip sooner on the exit. Peg weighting is central to good cornering, especially in the wet, surely? Its on tyres, not skis...
I'd like to hear one of the racers opinions on this, fleegle, bn et al?
Is th OP having trouble braking on the approach to the roundabout or on the roundabout itself? Have you tried braking with the rear and accelerating together and using one balance the other?
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