R1 clutch advise?
Discussion
I've got a bike engined kit car with a 2008 R1 in it. I had bit of an issue the other day, I gave the clutch a bit too much abuse in traffic going up a steep hill. (slipping the clutch with a few revs).
Anyway the clutch gave in, and I ended up on a flatbed. The engine wouldn't even stall in gear because it was slipping so badly!!
I've just taken it apart and this is what it looks like:
Now obviously I need to replace the friction plates, and the pressure plate.
But do you think the steel plates are still ok? They are a dark blue colour, but are not warped?
I fitted brand new genuine Yamaha friction plates and steel plates 2000 miles ago, so haven't had a lot of use.
Also it seems the only bit that was slipping was the first friction plate and pressure plate, as the rest of the friction plates have plenty of meat left on them. (any reason why just the front was slipping?)
So do you think I just need new friction plates and pressure plate?
Just the steel plates are rather expensive, so would rather not replace if they are still ok.
Cheers
Anyway the clutch gave in, and I ended up on a flatbed. The engine wouldn't even stall in gear because it was slipping so badly!!
I've just taken it apart and this is what it looks like:
Now obviously I need to replace the friction plates, and the pressure plate.
But do you think the steel plates are still ok? They are a dark blue colour, but are not warped?
I fitted brand new genuine Yamaha friction plates and steel plates 2000 miles ago, so haven't had a lot of use.
Also it seems the only bit that was slipping was the first friction plate and pressure plate, as the rest of the friction plates have plenty of meat left on them. (any reason why just the front was slipping?)
So do you think I just need new friction plates and pressure plate?
Just the steel plates are rather expensive, so would rather not replace if they are still ok.
Cheers
It really doesn't take a lot for the steels to cause a problem if overheated, but just make sure that you place 'em on a flat surface and run a feeler gauge around them. Not so sure what that allowable distortion is, but any wouldn't be a good thing. Also, you have probably changed the hardness of the plates, you wouldn't want one going pop at 11,000 rpm....
For the little work it takes, just friction plates should be OK, though if badly cooked, it could make the clutch feel heavy as you have essentially hardened the springs if it got hot enough. Just make sure you are using a motorcycle specific oil, as car oils can make wet clutches slip.
Just imparting the very small amount of knowledge I have/not......Good luck
For the little work it takes, just friction plates should be OK, though if badly cooked, it could make the clutch feel heavy as you have essentially hardened the springs if it got hot enough. Just make sure you are using a motorcycle specific oil, as car oils can make wet clutches slip.
Just imparting the very small amount of knowledge I have/not......Good luck
I would replace the lot, I have once replaced just the friction plates, but it wasn't long until the slipping started again. For what it's ŵorth I'd do it all in one go.
I suppose I replaced y clutch about 4 times on my furybalde. I found it very hard to spot wear, my old friction plates looked like yours - not too worn to the eye, and the replacement ones didn't look to have much more meat on them then the worn ones. Likewise with the steels, no obvious wear, but it certainly made a big difference when they were replaced.
Had I kept the car any longer (I wish I had in hindsight!!) I would have gone for an aftermarket clutch I think.
Have you swapped the springs for heavy duty ones - worth doing if not!
I suppose I replaced y clutch about 4 times on my furybalde. I found it very hard to spot wear, my old friction plates looked like yours - not too worn to the eye, and the replacement ones didn't look to have much more meat on them then the worn ones. Likewise with the steels, no obvious wear, but it certainly made a big difference when they were replaced.
Had I kept the car any longer (I wish I had in hindsight!!) I would have gone for an aftermarket clutch I think.
Have you swapped the springs for heavy duty ones - worth doing if not!
Thanks, I will just replace the lot then to be safe, as it must of get very hot.
I will also do an oil filter change after aswell,
And will adjust the pedal pivot, so it's less of a on/off switch, as don't want to be doing this again!!
Oh and yes it's the right oil I'm using. Yamalube semi.
Still not sure why just the front slipped?
I will also do an oil filter change after aswell,
And will adjust the pedal pivot, so it's less of a on/off switch, as don't want to be doing this again!!
Oh and yes it's the right oil I'm using. Yamalube semi.
Still not sure why just the front slipped?
As well as having had experience with racing these bikes, I also look after a mate's Westfield XTR2 car that runs a Hayabusa motor. That toasts clutches quite regularly - especially as it's running slick tyres.
Bike engines in cars do suffer - the transmission isn't really designed for that kind of traction that car tyres give, as you've discovered.
You can't tell if frictions and steels are ok 'just because they look ok...' (unless the friction plates are obviously toast
) the only way to tell if they're up to the job is to measure the thickness carefully with a micrometer, and compare that with the Yamaha service limits. Anything close to the bottom figure, and in a bike-engined car, you're best off replacing them.
A tiny bit of wear to each plate adds up to a lot of wear across the entire clutch pack unit over a total of 18 plates, see. Hence the pack won't engage properly and you get slip.
WRT the metal plates, if they're blue or rainbow coloured, this is a sign of them being subject to a temparature higher than their design limit. As said, even if they don't appear warped, they might have had their metallurgy integrity compromised, and fail at a later date. Also, even if you can't see warping, there could still be uneven wear (ridges and valleys) made from a build-up of material that has literally become 'welded' onto the working surface. This could cause clutch judder. (Incidentally, this is also what happens to brake discs - most of the time, when people complain of warped discs, they're not warped - they have high spots).
Finally, the plate you've described as being the only one that has slipped - this isn't the case. The friction plates are all held into the clutch basket by their outside tabs, and the metal plates held to the hub by their internal tines. Hence, each plate turns with all the others - there cannot be a situation where one plate is spinning or slipping more or less than any of the others.
The reason the outer plates suffer the most is due to the inner plates being cooled more. The clutch pack on a bike relies on the engine oil for cooling, and the feed is at the bottom of the basket. Hence, the outer plates have a bit less of an oil flow, and can run a little hotter.
Oh, and just to debunk another myth while I'm here - although the clutch pack relies on engine oil for cooling, it does not require oil to be between the mating surfaces of the plates. In fact, excessive oil here can also cause clutch slip. Some people advocate soaking new plates in oil before fitting them - this is probably the worst thing you can do! Put them in dry, especially in a bike-engined car.
Want proof? I direct you to Ducatis, with dry clutch units. They rely on air for cooling, and have no oil running in them at all. The steel and friction plates are made from exactly the same material...
In fact when we were racing, every time we had the side off the engines on the race bikes, we would take the opportunity to remove all the friction plates and blast them off with brake cleaner solvent to remove the oil. It gave less chance of clutch slip during a race, and gave a more even take-up to help at starts.
In 5 years of British National racing btw, I can't remember an occasion when we suffered a knackered or slipping clutch.
Hope this helps!
Bike engines in cars do suffer - the transmission isn't really designed for that kind of traction that car tyres give, as you've discovered.
You can't tell if frictions and steels are ok 'just because they look ok...' (unless the friction plates are obviously toast
) the only way to tell if they're up to the job is to measure the thickness carefully with a micrometer, and compare that with the Yamaha service limits. Anything close to the bottom figure, and in a bike-engined car, you're best off replacing them.A tiny bit of wear to each plate adds up to a lot of wear across the entire clutch pack unit over a total of 18 plates, see. Hence the pack won't engage properly and you get slip.
WRT the metal plates, if they're blue or rainbow coloured, this is a sign of them being subject to a temparature higher than their design limit. As said, even if they don't appear warped, they might have had their metallurgy integrity compromised, and fail at a later date. Also, even if you can't see warping, there could still be uneven wear (ridges and valleys) made from a build-up of material that has literally become 'welded' onto the working surface. This could cause clutch judder. (Incidentally, this is also what happens to brake discs - most of the time, when people complain of warped discs, they're not warped - they have high spots).
Finally, the plate you've described as being the only one that has slipped - this isn't the case. The friction plates are all held into the clutch basket by their outside tabs, and the metal plates held to the hub by their internal tines. Hence, each plate turns with all the others - there cannot be a situation where one plate is spinning or slipping more or less than any of the others.
The reason the outer plates suffer the most is due to the inner plates being cooled more. The clutch pack on a bike relies on the engine oil for cooling, and the feed is at the bottom of the basket. Hence, the outer plates have a bit less of an oil flow, and can run a little hotter.
Oh, and just to debunk another myth while I'm here - although the clutch pack relies on engine oil for cooling, it does not require oil to be between the mating surfaces of the plates. In fact, excessive oil here can also cause clutch slip. Some people advocate soaking new plates in oil before fitting them - this is probably the worst thing you can do! Put them in dry, especially in a bike-engined car.
Want proof? I direct you to Ducatis, with dry clutch units. They rely on air for cooling, and have no oil running in them at all. The steel and friction plates are made from exactly the same material...
In fact when we were racing, every time we had the side off the engines on the race bikes, we would take the opportunity to remove all the friction plates and blast them off with brake cleaner solvent to remove the oil. It gave less chance of clutch slip during a race, and gave a more even take-up to help at starts.
In 5 years of British National racing btw, I can't remember an occasion when we suffered a knackered or slipping clutch.
Hope this helps!
I trashed the itch on my track R1 a few years back and decided to replace the lot. I do soak them overnight in oil and never had a problem again worth he clutch.
However, the little bit of te friction plate did completely trash the gearbox from 4th upwards a couple of months later and that was not nice flat out in 5th when it went.
Get the engine and gearbox cleaned up too those plates can do a lot of damage.
However, the little bit of te friction plate did completely trash the gearbox from 4th upwards a couple of months later and that was not nice flat out in 5th when it went.
Get the engine and gearbox cleaned up too those plates can do a lot of damage.
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