James Whitham Trackdays

[moanthebairns]

I know we have a trackday thread but I thought i'd put this separate. Often people ask about schools etc and if they are worth it so I will try to give a wee review with the usual trackday report.

It was two days at Anglesey, instead of driving 6 hours on the morning of the day I went down the night before and stay in the hilton of Anglesey.







Sadly my barlinie tele was broken. But the people were wonderful.

I arrived late, "you must be hungry son",
no i'm ok i had a big fry up,
"i'll fix you some apple pie"
its ok i'm fine thanks,
"nonsense, I'll get you a bowl",
No, its fine honestly,
"its a lovely pastry",
I don't like apple pie honestly its ok.
"son there is your apple pie".

Anyway I got to circuit and it was pissing it down, the bike wouldn't start as well. Turned out it was a flat battery.



James whitham gave the briefing, fk me he swears a lot. It was almost up there with me, however he only ever says fking. Everything was fking this fking that, he really needs to learn new sweary words. But it was the most enjoyable briefing ive been to. Relaxed, funny and to the point. james Westmoreland, Taylor Mackenzie, Richard Cooper, Steve Brogan and Dean Harrison were the instructors.

Our group got Mackenzie and Brogan. The idea was, one would follow you for a session then we'd all come in and chat about your session hoping to help others out in the process.
I thought this was a bit naff, how will someone i've not seen ride help me. But it really did. It was all the usual for people, lean off more, use the fat bit of the tyre, smooth, look where you want to go, use all the track. But being told to do so every session made it stick. Some guys were given very good advice, their style was full bike lean, arse in seat let T/C work it out. The rider would laugh about this only for the instructor to sit there and say this isnt funny, your going to have a big off. I think these guys took a lot from it.





It pissed it down all morning then as if by magic cleared to this in the afternoon.



We done our afternoon sessions then we went a track walk with all the instructors. This was fking great. A bit cold and a long walk after the day but I learnt loads from it. I was turning in way too early for late apex corners. My lines were st, you felt how banked the track was, you could see the lines better, the apex's walking them. A cracking idea. Good fun too.




Tim85 telling us of his elbow down



jacamo pose



Alex the apex is all the fking way over there you tit.



I got back to the digs fked about 9 after food and the walk around. I had another horrible nights sleep I awoke one night wondering wtf i was lying on.



God knows what the fk it was, some sort of Cadburys furry chocolate button. The bd who slept in my bed before must have had some size belly button.

The weather was the same as the first day. Soaking then dry. It followed the same routine. Due to the fact there is 14-20 in your group i spent most of it working on positions, lines, getting over the kerb at apex. It's strange, its nothing new, its not rocket science, they dont flip a magic button and make you 5 seconds a lap faster but its really good. Novice riders will take loads from it. But even if you don't the layouts great, the space is amazing (your lucky if you see two bikes a session) and the best bit is not fighting for a fking pit space with 120 other people and very few red flags. Its a bit dearer than no limits days there but worth it id say. Most of my group had done 4 or 5 with jw at Anglesey this year alone.

It was probably the best couple of days i've done on track. I dont know if it was because I utterly loved Anglesey Circuit so much or if it was the trackday but i wish i'd went to it sooner. I spent two days working on things, i'd work on two or three corners one session then same the next, being smoother, using more track. If it was a no limits day i'd never have space to do that. It'll be interesting to see if it helps at circuits i know. I'm sure it will, I'm already thinking of corners I've not been doing correctly. I did time myself on the phone to see if i could see an improvement, i did, but i've no fking idea what the times mean at that circuit so who cares.

[Prof Prolapse]

Looks good Mr. Alex, how much was it?



fking hell, the three of you in the middle look like you're on day release.

[moanthebairns]

370 for two days. So not cheap but I'd say worth it.

[graeme4130]

Prof Prolapse said:

Looks good Mr. Alex, how much was it?



fking hell, the three of you in the middle look like you're on day release.

Coupled with the hairy lump of spunk in the hotel room, you lot look like the 21st century Train spotting
If whitham swears as much as you Alex, he's cool by me

[curlie467]

Under 1.45 is ok.

For a comparison, my brother did a 1.39 last time out on the CBR600 and was near the back in the 600 class.

[Andy XRV]

moanthebairns said:

370 for two days. So not cheap but I'd say worth it.

Great read! Compared with CSS that's les than 1/2 price so I'd say it is great value for money

[moanthebairns]

curlie467 said:

Under 1.45 is ok.

For a comparison, my brother did a 1.39 last time out on the CBR600 and was near the back in the 600 class.

1m43 first day nearly every lap into 1m41 end of day two so meh. But I stress phone app.

[moanthebairns]

Andy XRV said:

moanthebairns said:

370 for two days. So not cheap but I'd say worth it.

Great read! Compared with CSS that's les than 1/2 price so I'd say it is great value for money

Is css one to one?

I was instantly turned off by the school due to you needing to do level 1 then 2 etc. It's about 1200 to complete as I understand.

I dunno about training to be honest. Ive had a few instructors, Everytime it's just your smooth, styles fine, look at ease, lines fine just need touched up. So I thought I just need to help myself.

listening to others I was like right, I'm going out for the next few sessions and just going to keep hanging off the bike in an exagerated way on pick up on corner exit. I probably wasn't going quicker but it felt better.

Before I'd pick it up and move with the bike lifting my body above the screen as a result then tuck under again. Messy

Now it's bike upright but keep hanging off and I can just slide inline, Chin almost touching the tank, all behind screen it feels great, so smooth and more relaxed. Fun

So I just done little things like this.

Things like using kerbs at the apex. Normally I ride a ft or two away. So I'd just spend laps getting knee over. Sadly I forgot how fking sore it is hitting the ridged kerbs but I just pulled knees in

[jjones]

Great write up.

graeme4130 said:

Coupled with the hairy lump of spunk in the hotel room

Do you think he ate it?

[moanthebairns]

[Biker's Nemesis]

That's a great write up Alex, glad you had a good time, look forward to get out with you and the other Rab more next year.

[Andy XRV]

moanthebairns said:

Is css one to one?

I was instantly turned off by the school due to you needing to do level 1 then 2 etc. It's about 1200 to complete as I understand.

I dunno about training to be honest. Ive had a few instructors, Everytime it's just your smooth, styles fine, look at ease, lines fine just need touched up. So I thought I just need to help myself.

listening to others I was like right, I'm going out for the next few sessions and just going to keep hanging off the bike in an exagerated way on pick up on corner exit. I probably wasn't going quicker but it felt better.

Before I'd pick it up and move with the bike lifting my body above the screen as a result then tuck under again. Messy

Now it's bike upright but keep hanging off and I can just slide inline, Chin almost touching the tank, all behind screen it feels great, so smooth and more relaxed. Fun

So I just done little things like this.

Things like using kerbs at the apex. Normally I ride a ft or two away. So I'd just spend laps getting knee over. Sadly I forgot how fking sore it is hitting the ridged kerbs but I just pulled knees in

I did the CSS 1&2 at Brands this year which all up was around 800 for the two days. Instruction was 1 to 4 and reading your write up it sounds like your traning format was pretty similar. I think quite a lot of the cost down south is the circuit hire but it's still bloody expensive.

[mckeann]

The training on CSS is a hundred times better and more involved than on the Whitham days. It's not even comparable.

[Fleegle]

mckeann said:

The training on CSS is a hundred times better and more involved than on the Whitham days. It's not even comparable.

Curiosity question.......have you done a Whitham day? I'd choose a JW day over CSS purely and simply over the scientology and Americanisms. I've done neither. If I was going to do one I would make my money count and spend a day with Mike Edwards. I'm sure the two mentioned are good fun but they both sound too diluted

[mckeann]

Yes, I did CSS when i was first starting out on bikes, and I did a JW day a couple of months back, as the circuit and date suited me. I wasn't expecting much in the way of training and I was right. the level of training is basically telling you f your taking the racing line, and if you hang off enough. They don't actually teach you anything.

I really liked the CSS training. It got you thinking. They didn't just tell you what to do. It made you analyse your own riding which I still do. I'm not saying I follow their approach religiously (or sciencetologiously either ) but it's a proper training school, not just a follow the leader.

You'd be much better getting free instruction from NL instructors on a trackday, than expecting decent training from the stars on a JW day.

[moanthebairns]

mckeann said:

Yes, I did CSS when i was first starting out on bikes, and I did a JW day a couple of months back, as the circuit and date suited me. I wasn't expecting much in the way of training and I was right. the level of training is basically telling you f your taking the racing line, and if you hang off enough. They don't actually teach you anything.

I really liked the CSS training. It got you thinking. They didn't just tell you what to do. It made you analyse your own riding which I still do. I'm not saying I follow their approach religiously (or sciencetologiously either ) but it's a proper training school, not just a follow the leader.

You'd be much better getting free instruction from NL instructors on a trackday, than expecting decent training from the stars on a JW day.

Thanks for this Neil, this is good input. I couldn't compare the CSS because I've never been only what I've heard. Its good to hear someone who has done both. It'd be handy if Graeme would write a review on it having just done the CSS.

I think I said to you after it, that the instruction is very much like No limits. Or it was for me, show me a few lines, that's it. Which did help but I was still learning a track id only been to once, 18 months ago as a novice so it was always going to help.

I think as a novice you will pick up loads. But you'd get a lot from no limits instruction.

I said in the report, "I never learnt anything new". It was all what you've heard before. I understand you took nothing from it. TBH I suspect a lot of fast guys on here would be the same.

What it did do for me though was give me a chance to work on the areas that had already been identified prior to the track day that I was weak on. With so few numbers on the track I could bimble about trying new stuff with space.

I took a lot from listening to others, on day two when I felt, ok I've tidied my riding up a bit or at least know when I've not done it correctly, I started looking at things that maybe didn't require immediate attention and going back on brushing up things that I did safely but could do better, more smoothly.

For me, it was the space. And a big one for me not fighting for pits or track time with another 60 people in your group. Although, it was really good to walk a track. You see things in a different light I feel. You can pick turn in points, markers etc that might not work but give you a stepping stone.

As a novice, it is a very good stepping stone. For advanced, i'd say its more about an empty track.

I wouldn't bother with croft though, its £220 for the day, with 20 in a group. No limits are only allowed to run 30 in their days at croft, some I've been on only have 15 in fast, especially the Thursday of a double day.

I kinda don't want anyone to be disappointed if they book up and don't get anything from it, but I don't want to bash it as I had an amazing two days.

[graeme4130]

I found CSS really useful, but then I don't have any long term bad habits as I'm still <1yr into riding motorbikes
Yes, it's expensive at around £430 per level for 4 levels, but where you do it in chunks, you get a chance to practice the stuff at the track between the modules as long as you space them out
I've met Gary Walton of Notsofast a couple of times recently, and I found him really easy to get along with, so I'll do some 1:1's with him early next year
I tried to book Mike "Spike" Edwards a few times, but his diary is always super busy, so nothing ever ended up available at a time when I was, or at a track I knew a bit so I didn't spent the whole morning trying to find my way around
With CSS, unlike the tailored 1:1's, for levels 1-3 it's predefined modules, that force you to rethink certain areas such as how you visualise a corner and where you're spotting on the way out. Also, they have some modules on moving yourself around the bike between corners and a variety of 2 and 3 step processes into and out of corners
Like I said, it worked for me, but everyone's different
The biggest issue I saw on my 4 days, is people letting their EGO's get in the way of the training, and trying to do everything at 95% of their normal speed. Whereas, if you calm it all down to 60-70% pace, it's easier to do the drills without feeling out of your comfort zone, or uncomfortable. I did this in level 1 and I left with a pretty average idea of how things worked, but for the following levels, I just bit my competitive tongue, and let myself get overtaken all over the place to try stuff, and then went up to something approaching normal speed for the last couple of sessions, where everything I'd learnt and practiced earilier just seemed to work

[fergus]

graeme4130 said:

I found CSS really useful, but then I don't have any long term bad habits as I'm still <1yr into riding motorbikes
Yes, it's expensive at around £430 per level for 4 levels, but where you do it in chunks, you get a chance to practice the stuff at the track between the modules as long as you space them out
I've met Gary Walton of Notsofast a couple of times recently, and I found him really easy to get along with, so I'll do some 1:1's with him early next year
I tried to book Mike "Spike" Edwards a few times, but his diary is always super busy, so nothing ever ended up available at a time when I was, or at a track I knew a bit so I didn't spent the whole morning trying to find my way around
With CSS, unlike the tailored 1:1's, for levels 1-3 it's predefined modules, that force you to rethink certain areas such as how you visualise a corner and where you're spotting on the way out. Also, they have some modules on moving yourself around the bike between corners and a variety of 2 and 3 step processes into and out of corners
Like I said, it worked for me, but everyone's different
The biggest issue I saw on my 4 days, is people letting their EGO's get in the way of the training, and trying to do everything at 95% of their normal speed. Whereas, if you calm it all down to 60-70% pace, it's easier to do the drills without feeling out of your comfort zone, or uncomfortable. I did this in level 1 and I left with a pretty average idea of how things worked, but for the following levels, I just bit my competitive tongue, and let myself get overtaken all over the place to try stuff, and then went up to something approaching normal speed for the last couple of sessions, where everything I'd learnt and practiced earilier just seemed to work

If you ever do any training with Simon Crafar (MotoVudu), be prepared to "unlearn" a lot of CSS drills....

[graeme4130]

fergus said:

graeme4130 said:

I found CSS really useful, but then I don't have any long term bad habits as I'm still <1yr into riding motorbikes
Yes, it's expensive at around £430 per level for 4 levels, but where you do it in chunks, you get a chance to practice the stuff at the track between the modules as long as you space them out
I've met Gary Walton of Notsofast a couple of times recently, and I found him really easy to get along with, so I'll do some 1:1's with him early next year
I tried to book Mike "Spike" Edwards a few times, but his diary is always super busy, so nothing ever ended up available at a time when I was, or at a track I knew a bit so I didn't spent the whole morning trying to find my way around
With CSS, unlike the tailored 1:1's, for levels 1-3 it's predefined modules, that force you to rethink certain areas such as how you visualise a corner and where you're spotting on the way out. Also, they have some modules on moving yourself around the bike between corners and a variety of 2 and 3 step processes into and out of corners
Like I said, it worked for me, but everyone's different
The biggest issue I saw on my 4 days, is people letting their EGO's get in the way of the training, and trying to do everything at 95% of their normal speed. Whereas, if you calm it all down to 60-70% pace, it's easier to do the drills without feeling out of your comfort zone, or uncomfortable. I did this in level 1 and I left with a pretty average idea of how things worked, but for the following levels, I just bit my competitive tongue, and let myself get overtaken all over the place to try stuff, and then went up to something approaching normal speed for the last couple of sessions, where everything I'd learnt and practiced earilier just seemed to work

If you ever do any training with Simon Crafar (MotoVudu), be prepared to "unlearn" a lot of CSS drills....

I had a chat with Simon at Silverstone, and he said the same thing to an extent. However, as with all training, you can pick and choose what works for you.
Simon seemed a good guy, but like Mike Edwards, seemed very difficult to pin down for coaching himself, and seems to mainly concentrate on the foreign tracks, leaving his UK guys to cover any tracks local to me
I've met a handful of these guys this year, and, personally, I liked the approach and attitude of Gary Walton of Notsofast.
I'm sure they're all as good as each other, but with any 1:1 coaching, having compatible attitudes makes a big difference.
I need someone that tells me to get over myself, and stop being a pussy, or if something's crap, I need them to tell me to sort it the f**k out. He seems to speak my language (mainly swearing), so I liked him straight away.
Plus, I contacted him through Facebook, and he recognised me and Donington last month, and made the effort to come and find me. I know it's only something small, but that along with having a good chat with him, sold me on using him as a 1:1 next year when the track day season starts again
I've heard good things about all the coaching from a variety of different professionals, but the Whitham days do seem to get mainly very positive reactions, and from what Alex has said, it made big improvements for him

[fergus]

graeme4130 said:

... with any 1:1 coaching, having compatible attitudes makes a big difference.

Agreed. If you can't work with someone, it's difficult to move forwards with effective training.