Difficult situation with 'dealer friend'.
Discussion
My son has been using a (new-ish) one man band, bike repair/service/sales garage for a few months now since he moved house to the west midlands with his 3 bikes. In fact he is on first name terms with the owner, is attached on Facebook with him and they exchange jokes, etc. on whatsapp. If not a real friend, he sees him as an associate for sure.
No real complaints until recently either, although he noticed that since the garage has gained regular trade the very good prices are no longer so good!
Well fast forward and some jobs he wanted doing on his 1999 Yamaha R1 have over doubled in price to what was quoted for cash. What was said to be ''about £600'' is now at £1,090 and some bits haven't been done or worked out yet. 90% of it is done apparently.
It's a difficult one i think. The ''heavy'' route is an option of course, but for me would have to be the very last option. So far dialogue has achieved nothing and the guy says he gets his bike back when he pays the bill, likely to be £1,300 or probably just over.
The reasons given were longer labour time generally, difficulty with removing 3 fixings and a longer than usual time to do the valve clearances. Plus some other bits were more expensive from his supplier than he realised.
What does he do? Suck it up and suffer for the fact he didn't get a written quote beforehand (although i believe quotes aren't cast in stone are they?)?
Or does he insist he gets his bike back at a compromise price?
Or like i said earlier, not ideal really, go with a couple of mates and take the bike back, leaving say £700 on the desk?
What would you do?
No real complaints until recently either, although he noticed that since the garage has gained regular trade the very good prices are no longer so good!
Well fast forward and some jobs he wanted doing on his 1999 Yamaha R1 have over doubled in price to what was quoted for cash. What was said to be ''about £600'' is now at £1,090 and some bits haven't been done or worked out yet. 90% of it is done apparently.
It's a difficult one i think. The ''heavy'' route is an option of course, but for me would have to be the very last option. So far dialogue has achieved nothing and the guy says he gets his bike back when he pays the bill, likely to be £1,300 or probably just over.
The reasons given were longer labour time generally, difficulty with removing 3 fixings and a longer than usual time to do the valve clearances. Plus some other bits were more expensive from his supplier than he realised.
What does he do? Suck it up and suffer for the fact he didn't get a written quote beforehand (although i believe quotes aren't cast in stone are they?)?
Or does he insist he gets his bike back at a compromise price?
Or like i said earlier, not ideal really, go with a couple of mates and take the bike back, leaving say £700 on the desk?
What would you do?
What exactly is he getting done that's going to cost £1300. We really need to know all the tasks undertaken and spares bought.
I've had clearances done recently, before hand the guy quoted a price to inspect then outlined additional costs if they required to be adjusted. Photos of work was sent, parts replaced and shown to me. I know for a fact it probably took longer than what he quoted but I was charged what he promised, or there around about. At this time of year normally they will take what they can get. In summer i'd have probably been charged more.
A quote like this is sometimes very open, especially for cash. I'd expect to see the parts replaced, itemised parts bill (you expect a reasonable mark-up for the mechanic). But i'd be querying anything that's taking the piss.
In this situation, i'd go about it delicately, i'd explain my surprise at the doubled cost, emphasising that I hadn't budgeted for this, spout some pish about it being christmas etc.
I've had garages do this in the past with cars and bikes, the bill is normally paid and my custom isn't returned. That said it's never been in the magnitude of over half a grand.
I've had clearances done recently, before hand the guy quoted a price to inspect then outlined additional costs if they required to be adjusted. Photos of work was sent, parts replaced and shown to me. I know for a fact it probably took longer than what he quoted but I was charged what he promised, or there around about. At this time of year normally they will take what they can get. In summer i'd have probably been charged more.
A quote like this is sometimes very open, especially for cash. I'd expect to see the parts replaced, itemised parts bill (you expect a reasonable mark-up for the mechanic). But i'd be querying anything that's taking the piss.
In this situation, i'd go about it delicately, i'd explain my surprise at the doubled cost, emphasising that I hadn't budgeted for this, spout some pish about it being christmas etc.
I've had garages do this in the past with cars and bikes, the bill is normally paid and my custom isn't returned. That said it's never been in the magnitude of over half a grand.
Grindle said:
My son has been using a (new-ish) one man band, bike repair/service/sales garage for a few months
This is the bit that jumped out at me. Is this bloke inexperienced so that he is under-quoting to get work then dropping a higher bill out of naivety, or is he genuinely incompetent and just thinks people will suck it up? I'm an experienced home mechanic who does most of my bike maintenance, so I'm not so green as to not know that some jobs that you think will take an hour end up taking four hours, but that's on my time. When I use my established one man band indie for specialist jobs he is always pretty much accurate with his verbal quotes.
Old maxim applies unfortunately: buy cheap, buy twice.
Wait, so just to recap... Your son (a grown man), has run up a bill at a garage and it's larger than expected, it's a little suspect, so now his Dad (also a grown man) is is involved and asking other grown men on the internet what he should do, and feels it's appropriate to include options such as "sending in the heavies"?
I mean, I'm trying not to be a dick here... But it is my default setting and I'm struggling to get my head around it...
Personally I'd do very little. I'd advise my son to be a man about it, and understand this is the way of the world. If my son wasn't happy with the work done at the price, only he knows the conversations they have had regarding the work, and he should discuss this calmly with the owner and ask for a thorough explanation, then seek a satisfactory compromise with the owner. Negotiating in these situations is what men do, and always leads to the best possible outcome.
What I absolutely would not do, as another grown man, would be to show a complete failure to contain the situation, exacerbate it, and then attempt to deal with it for him, for me that is the perfect trifecta of "never had a f
king clue, made it worse, and then Dad did it for him" (or more likely just the first two).
Just do what MTB said.
I mean, I'm trying not to be a dick here... But it is my default setting and I'm struggling to get my head around it...
Personally I'd do very little. I'd advise my son to be a man about it, and understand this is the way of the world. If my son wasn't happy with the work done at the price, only he knows the conversations they have had regarding the work, and he should discuss this calmly with the owner and ask for a thorough explanation, then seek a satisfactory compromise with the owner. Negotiating in these situations is what men do, and always leads to the best possible outcome.
What I absolutely would not do, as another grown man, would be to show a complete failure to contain the situation, exacerbate it, and then attempt to deal with it for him, for me that is the perfect trifecta of "never had a f
king clue, made it worse, and then Dad did it for him" (or more likely just the first two).Just do what MTB said.
The OP did say 'the heavy route' which I took to mean legal action and stuff. But could just as easily have meant a couple of knuckle draggers I suppose.
The problem here isn't anything to do with bikes. It's parents being overly mollycoddling of their offspring generally.
In this instance I would ask the son what he actually asked and agreed to get done and then decide if the final bill is about right. Just because you are on first name terms and Whatsapping each other doesn't automatically mean 'mates rates'. The mechanic is trying to make a living. He's not going to manage that by under charging. It's like making a profit is a dirty word sometimes.
The problem here isn't anything to do with bikes. It's parents being overly mollycoddling of their offspring generally.
In this instance I would ask the son what he actually asked and agreed to get done and then decide if the final bill is about right. Just because you are on first name terms and Whatsapping each other doesn't automatically mean 'mates rates'. The mechanic is trying to make a living. He's not going to manage that by under charging. It's like making a profit is a dirty word sometimes.
Tyre Smoke said:
The OP did say 'the heavy route' which I took to mean legal action and stuff. But could just as easily have meant a couple of knuckle draggers I suppose.
The problem here isn't anything to do with bikes. It's parents being overly mollycoddling of their offspring generally.
In this instance I would ask the son what he actually asked and agreed to get done and then decide if the final bill is about right. Just because you are on first name terms and Whatsapping each other doesn't automatically mean 'mates rates'. The mechanic is trying to make a living. He's not going to manage that by under charging. It's like making a profit is a dirty word sometimes.
You have to wonder just wtf has been done at £1300 though. The problem here isn't anything to do with bikes. It's parents being overly mollycoddling of their offspring generally.
In this instance I would ask the son what he actually asked and agreed to get done and then decide if the final bill is about right. Just because you are on first name terms and Whatsapping each other doesn't automatically mean 'mates rates'. The mechanic is trying to make a living. He's not going to manage that by under charging. It's like making a profit is a dirty word sometimes.
I'd expect something like clearances, brakes rebuilt, forks done, full service and headers changed over with money to spare tbh.
Not knowing exactly what has been done and on the basis that he is not being extorted - his only option is to pay up and never go back again. I have sometimes found that settling unexpectedly large bills without argument can get you better treatment in the future - but only he could judge that.
Tyre Smoke said:
The OP did say 'the heavy route' which I took to mean legal action and stuff. But could just as easily have meant a couple of knuckle draggers I suppose.
Grindle said:
Or like i said earlier, not ideal really, go with a couple of mates and take the bike back, leaving say £700 on the desk?
I mean, I guess I was presumptuous and assumed these weren't barristers.It's moot anyway, the OP said he was smart enough to be reluctant to take such an approach, I just felt the stupidity of doing so was worthy of a mention.
moanthebairns said:
You have to wonder just wtf has been done at £1300 though.
I'd expect something like clearances, brakes rebuilt, forks done, full service and headers changed over with money to spare tbh.
I don't mean to ignore this point either.. You're spot on, it sounds ridiculously expensive.I'd expect something like clearances, brakes rebuilt, forks done, full service and headers changed over with money to spare tbh.
Valve clearances are time consuming, but I mean how long for a mechanic to do it on a simple bike like that? 3 hours? Even at £100/hour (which I would say is extortionate) that doesn't even come close. I mean the shims are a few quid each.
Let's say every bolt is rotten, you lose two hours to that, again generous with timings... Still not even close.
`What I paid at my local independent garage, I asked for a few things like filter and coolant to be done instead of buying the stuff myself and having to do etc as seemed pointless but that was the cost for 8 exhaust valves to get done.
Edited by moanthebairns on Tuesday 17th December 15:37
I think it's a reasonable question to ask but we need more facts.
My father is a car dealer so I grew up with this stuff generally it's negotiate and then depending upon attitude, decide whether you're ever going to need to use the person again, argue and pay.
I'd start with getting a list of jobs done and getting a guesstimate of what that should cost.
My father has sued a few people but seeing the sleepless nights etc it was never worth it
If people want to go the physical route they have to consider what happens if they bump into them without their mates in tow.
I suggest the vast majority, mumble and pay - which is why garages do it
My father is a car dealer so I grew up with this stuff generally it's negotiate and then depending upon attitude, decide whether you're ever going to need to use the person again, argue and pay.
I'd start with getting a list of jobs done and getting a guesstimate of what that should cost.
My father has sued a few people but seeing the sleepless nights etc it was never worth it
If people want to go the physical route they have to consider what happens if they bump into them without their mates in tow.
I suggest the vast majority, mumble and pay - which is why garages do it
moanthebairns said:
`What I paid at my local independent garage, I asked for a few things like filter and coolant to be done instead of buying the stuff myself and having to do etc as seemed pointless but that was the cost for 8 exhaust valves to get done.
Edited by moanthebairns on Tuesday 17th December 15:37
So a bloke takes a 20 year old bike into an independent and wants said bike servicing, valve clearances checking and a few bits sorting - given verbal quote about £600.
Work involves a seized bolts, cams out to adjust clearances that when they were found to be out, a few extras and a £1300 bill.
All sounds reasonable to me, perhaps some miscommunication on the growing bill but many jobs cannot be accurately priced until you actually do them.
I've noticed a lot of keyboard warriors on £100+ an hour "modern" jobs doing two fifths of fk all seem reluctant to pay someone to deal with real world type issues.
In all likelihood the mechanic will be "lying" about the amount of hours spent on the bike in this situation - you might be getting charged 15 hours total at £50 an hour but often the truth is the hours will have been tweaked down so they look competent in the eyes of the know-nothing public.
I can take an early R1 apart almost with my eyes shut (engine out in 1h45m on my own from fully built up bike) but would be impressed at much under 8 hours from a fully built (cold) bike, take it apart, measure clearances, remove camshafts, change shims, cams back in, measure clearances again, rebuild it fully, fill it back up with fluids and then razz it round the block.
All this with a full drawer full of replacement 7.5mm shims, no seized bolts, carbs rubbers gone hard, fuel tap not shutting off properly, chewed screwheads on carbs & airbox, seized water pipes in cylinder head - just to do the clearances let alone all the other service items you need to look at - seized EXUP valve, suspension linkages, head bearings, worn carbs, play in bearings, knackered chain, sprockets and brakes, trying to get chavvy indicators and other electrical bits working after 2 decades of Oxford / Motrax rubbish been spliced into them by idiots..
Work involves a seized bolts, cams out to adjust clearances that when they were found to be out, a few extras and a £1300 bill.
All sounds reasonable to me, perhaps some miscommunication on the growing bill but many jobs cannot be accurately priced until you actually do them.
I've noticed a lot of keyboard warriors on £100+ an hour "modern" jobs doing two fifths of f
k all seem reluctant to pay someone to deal with real world type issues.In all likelihood the mechanic will be "lying" about the amount of hours spent on the bike in this situation - you might be getting charged 15 hours total at £50 an hour but often the truth is the hours will have been tweaked down so they look competent in the eyes of the know-nothing public.
I can take an early R1 apart almost with my eyes shut (engine out in 1h45m on my own from fully built up bike) but would be impressed at much under 8 hours from a fully built (cold) bike, take it apart, measure clearances, remove camshafts, change shims, cams back in, measure clearances again, rebuild it fully, fill it back up with fluids and then razz it round the block.
All this with a full drawer full of replacement 7.5mm shims, no seized bolts, carbs rubbers gone hard, fuel tap not shutting off properly, chewed screwheads on carbs & airbox, seized water pipes in cylinder head - just to do the clearances let alone all the other service items you need to look at - seized EXUP valve, suspension linkages, head bearings, worn carbs, play in bearings, knackered chain, sprockets and brakes, trying to get chavvy indicators and other electrical bits working after 2 decades of Oxford / Motrax rubbish been spliced into them by idiots..
Grindle said:
My son has been using a (new-ish) one man band, bike repair/service/sales garage for a few months now since he moved house to the west midlands with his 3 bikes. In fact he is on first name terms with the owner, is attached on Facebook with him and they exchange jokes, etc. on whatsapp. If not a real friend, he sees him as an associate for sure.
No real complaints until recently either, although he noticed that since the garage has gained regular trade the very good prices are no longer so good!
Well fast forward and some jobs he wanted doing on his 1999 Yamaha R1 have over doubled in price to what was quoted for cash. What was said to be ''about £600'' is now at £1,090 and some bits haven't been done or worked out yet. 90% of it is done apparently.
It's a difficult one i think. The ''heavy'' route is an option of course, but for me would have to be the very last option. So far dialogue has achieved nothing and the guy says he gets his bike back when he pays the bill, likely to be £1,300 or probably just over.
The reasons given were longer labour time generally, difficulty with removing 3 fixings and a longer than usual time to do the valve clearances. Plus some other bits were more expensive from his supplier than he realised.
What does he do? Suck it up and suffer for the fact he didn't get a written quote beforehand (although i believe quotes aren't cast in stone are they?)?
Or does he insist he gets his bike back at a compromise price?
Or like i said earlier, not ideal really, go with a couple of mates and take the bike back, leaving say £700 on the desk?
What would you do?
Have you thought about speaking to the bike mechanic's dad about it? No real complaints until recently either, although he noticed that since the garage has gained regular trade the very good prices are no longer so good!
Well fast forward and some jobs he wanted doing on his 1999 Yamaha R1 have over doubled in price to what was quoted for cash. What was said to be ''about £600'' is now at £1,090 and some bits haven't been done or worked out yet. 90% of it is done apparently.
It's a difficult one i think. The ''heavy'' route is an option of course, but for me would have to be the very last option. So far dialogue has achieved nothing and the guy says he gets his bike back when he pays the bill, likely to be £1,300 or probably just over.
The reasons given were longer labour time generally, difficulty with removing 3 fixings and a longer than usual time to do the valve clearances. Plus some other bits were more expensive from his supplier than he realised.
What does he do? Suck it up and suffer for the fact he didn't get a written quote beforehand (although i believe quotes aren't cast in stone are they?)?
Or does he insist he gets his bike back at a compromise price?
Or like i said earlier, not ideal really, go with a couple of mates and take the bike back, leaving say £700 on the desk?
What would you do?
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