Discussion
I went for my free taster today.
Lots of high viz and white helmets, mostly late fifties / sixties blokes
Met my Observer - very nice bloke but freely admits that he rarely exceeds 70 - on a 1250 !
Riding within the speed limit was probably the hardest thing, not in the 30's but all the open 40/50's (that used to be NSL) so we were generally holding up cars, had to look at my speedo every few seconds and didn't get above 3rd (690 singles really don't like being below 4k)
It made me wonder how much useful advice they can offer, I'm not a maniac and deliberately didn't buy a sports bike but 50 on an open country road isn't how I ride (or drive)
I'll admit that riding at that speed, with my limited experience is much easier / safer but then so is sitting on the sofa.
If I go ahead can I ask for a more "realistic" trainer ?
I am booked onto the Bike Safe course in April (if it goes ahead with all this virus crap) should I wait and see what they say ?
Lots of high viz and white helmets, mostly late fifties / sixties blokes
Met my Observer - very nice bloke but freely admits that he rarely exceeds 70 - on a 1250 !
Riding within the speed limit was probably the hardest thing, not in the 30's but all the open 40/50's (that used to be NSL) so we were generally holding up cars, had to look at my speedo every few seconds and didn't get above 3rd (690 singles really don't like being below 4k)
It made me wonder how much useful advice they can offer, I'm not a maniac and deliberately didn't buy a sports bike but 50 on an open country road isn't how I ride (or drive)
I'll admit that riding at that speed, with my limited experience is much easier / safer but then so is sitting on the sofa.
If I go ahead can I ask for a more "realistic" trainer ?
I am booked onto the Bike Safe course in April (if it goes ahead with all this virus crap) should I wait and see what they say ?
My experience a few years ago in cars was that while individual observers have their own view, the official line is to obey all speed limits and that's the standard you're assessed against.
Same as you, not a lot to gain from most of it on 30/40 and now here much of it is going to 20. I mainly improved on observation and anticipation.
I'm not sure I'd bother again, I'd go for a day with a Reg type character or HPC.
Same as you, not a lot to gain from most of it on 30/40 and now here much of it is going to 20. I mainly improved on observation and anticipation.
I'm not sure I'd bother again, I'd go for a day with a Reg type character or HPC.
I did the bike safe not long after passing (2016) and really enjoyed it with some excellent feedback. I signed up for IAM after that expecting a similar experience but was very disappointed. The observer was a typical know it all biker and I went out on a ride with the observer and a girl who kept stalling her CBR 600 and could not keep up even in the 30 limit. She would also duckwalk turning right from the middle of the road. The only feedback I got was him criticising me for slowing down to wait for the girl who could not keep up. I got no other feedback and nothing in writing. I realise that it depends on the observer but I never bothered to go back. It's a shame I didn't know about the taster session as I wasted £150.
I've no problem with 30s and urban 40s but sticking to rural 50s and 60s is not real world biking.
Try these people - www.rapidtraining.co.uk
Expensive but worth it.
Try these people - www.rapidtraining.co.uk
Expensive but worth it.
zzrman said:
+1 for Rapid Training being superb. These guys are top notch, with a "real-world" approach too. Very highly recommended 
In fairness to the IAM, its Observers are volunteers (not professional instructors like Rapid). Also, the IAM has to stick to speed limits because it's a road safety charity.
There's some useful stuff to glean from the IAM: things like observation and forward planning, anticipation, 3-stage overtaking, cornering lines for road riding and how to use the 'limit point' are fundamental skills. I think the main issue with the IAM is how much the quality of training varies from one Observer to another.
2gins said:
My experience a few years ago in cars was that while individual observers have their own view, the official line is to obey all speed limits and that's the standard you're assessed against.
Same as you, not a lot to gain from most of it on 30/40 and now here much of it is going to 20. I mainly improved on observation and anticipation.
I'm not sure I'd bother again, I'd go for a day with a Reg type character or HPC.
I have often wondered what observers would think of the comment “I have set my limiter at 65, to ensure I keep under ‘fine territory’ “.Same as you, not a lot to gain from most of it on 30/40 and now here much of it is going to 20. I mainly improved on observation and anticipation.
I'm not sure I'd bother again, I'd go for a day with a Reg type character or HPC.
I did IAM bike a few years ago. There is an ancient thread on here about it.
How much you learn probably depends upon how much you know, how interested you have been in learning about riding yourself, how much you have practiced and how well you ride beforehand.
Everybody is, of course, a brilliant rider in their own mind, despite many riders being fairly poor.
I enjoyed most of the observed rides, but by the last one (?), when we went over the Cat & Fiddle I just rode my own ride (without speeding) and left the observer way behind.
The low speed limits were frustrating, and a probably worse now, 10 years or so later.
The IAM test (and examiner) itself was very good. He was keen to get a move on, overtake and corner briskly, within the speed limits.
As a result I didn't bother with IAM or Rospa car course afterwards and just paid for a 1.5 hour session with a Rospa car assessor, who was good, although car IAM/Rospa is/was a little dogmatic for my liking.
How much you learn probably depends upon how much you know, how interested you have been in learning about riding yourself, how much you have practiced and how well you ride beforehand.
Everybody is, of course, a brilliant rider in their own mind, despite many riders being fairly poor.
I enjoyed most of the observed rides, but by the last one (?), when we went over the Cat & Fiddle I just rode my own ride (without speeding) and left the observer way behind.
The low speed limits were frustrating, and a probably worse now, 10 years or so later.
The IAM test (and examiner) itself was very good. He was keen to get a move on, overtake and corner briskly, within the speed limits.
As a result I didn't bother with IAM or Rospa car course afterwards and just paid for a 1.5 hour session with a Rospa car assessor, who was good, although car IAM/Rospa is/was a little dogmatic for my liking.
Baldchap said:
Try your local RoSPA group. In my experience of joint ride outs and sessions with both groups, IAM like rules, RoSPA like riding.
This. RoSPA is far better. The IAM in my experience is full of the stereotypical beardo types unable to think outside the BMW. The RoSPA guys like riding. But you will learn from either.
NS400R said:
Baldchap said:
Try your local RoSPA group. In my experience of joint ride outs and sessions with both groups, IAM like rules, RoSPA like riding.
This. RoSPA is far better. The IAM in my experience is full of the stereotypical beardo types unable to think outside the BMW. The RoSPA guys like riding. But you will learn from either.
I think people are being just a little naive here.
There is no way any organisation can be seen to be doing anything other than sticking to speed limits. Breaking the speed limit anywhere, regardless how sensible and safe it may appear, is illegal, and no organisation can be seen to be actively promoting illegal activity. Remember, riders have been prosecuted for being the group leader where, they themselves were not speeding but others in the group were. Any organisation being seen to encourage or condone speeding is, at this time when everyone "knows" speeding is the greatest evil on the road, opening themselves up for a whole heap of trouble.
I'm sure that once you are away from the "confines" of the official observation/test process then things may well be different for a lot of members. (Though not all, I accept.)
If you are there just to pass a test and get a certificate then it's likely the only thing you'll get from such training is a certificate! If you're there to learn how to be a better and safer rider, in ways that still allow you to have fun then learn the skills around observation, anticipation, planning, machine control etc Listen to the reasoning for particular approaches .and techniques, then use those to define your own style and apply that in your own way. Constantly ask why of both your observer/trainer and of yourself and review/adjust your approach to riding according to the answers. Do that and you'll get something from pretty much every session.
There is no way any organisation can be seen to be doing anything other than sticking to speed limits. Breaking the speed limit anywhere, regardless how sensible and safe it may appear, is illegal, and no organisation can be seen to be actively promoting illegal activity. Remember, riders have been prosecuted for being the group leader where, they themselves were not speeding but others in the group were. Any organisation being seen to encourage or condone speeding is, at this time when everyone "knows" speeding is the greatest evil on the road, opening themselves up for a whole heap of trouble.
I'm sure that once you are away from the "confines" of the official observation/test process then things may well be different for a lot of members. (Though not all, I accept.)
If you are there just to pass a test and get a certificate then it's likely the only thing you'll get from such training is a certificate! If you're there to learn how to be a better and safer rider, in ways that still allow you to have fun then learn the skills around observation, anticipation, planning, machine control etc Listen to the reasoning for particular approaches .and techniques, then use those to define your own style and apply that in your own way. Constantly ask why of both your observer/trainer and of yourself and review/adjust your approach to riding according to the answers. Do that and you'll get something from pretty much every session.
black-k1 said:
I think people are being just a little naive here.
There is no way any organisation can be seen to be doing anything other than sticking to speed limits.
I'm sure that once you are away from the "confines" of the official observation/test process then things may well be different for a lot of members. (Though not all, I accept.).
If you read what I wrote though...There is no way any organisation can be seen to be doing anything other than sticking to speed limits.
I'm sure that once you are away from the "confines" of the official observation/test process then things may well be different for a lot of members. (Though not all, I accept.).
My Observer rarely rides over 70 - when I told him, I regularly see 120+ in my car he genuinely couldn't believe it - this from a man with a 1250 bike - I didn't like to ask if he realises there is more than one gear.
I'd suggest that to have driven at those speeds, accident free for 25+ years I'm more observant than he is at 70 !
I'm not looking for road racing training but there is a middle ground.
Did the first lesson (initial assessment) of the ERS a couple of weeks ago.
Same experience as OP. This was 1-on-1 though. It's a "how to ride really paranoid-ly and holding up cars" course that you get a certificate from, not really a "how to ride better" course.
Not going back.
Learned a few new routes though
Same experience as OP. This was 1-on-1 though. It's a "how to ride really paranoid-ly and holding up cars" course that you get a certificate from, not really a "how to ride better" course.
Not going back.
Learned a few new routes though
V8RX7 said:
black-k1 said:
I think people are being just a little naive here.
There is no way any organisation can be seen to be doing anything other than sticking to speed limits.
I'm sure that once you are away from the "confines" of the official observation/test process then things may well be different for a lot of members. (Though not all, I accept.).
If you read what I wrote though...There is no way any organisation can be seen to be doing anything other than sticking to speed limits.
I'm sure that once you are away from the "confines" of the official observation/test process then things may well be different for a lot of members. (Though not all, I accept.).
My Observer rarely rides over 70 - when I told him, I regularly see 120+ in my car he genuinely couldn't believe it - this from a man with a 1250 bike - I didn't like to ask if he realises there is more than one gear.
I'd suggest that to have driven at those speeds, accident free for 25+ years I'm more observant than he is at 70 !
I'm not looking for road racing training but there is a middle ground.
The fact your observer rarely rides over 70 is his choice and for the time you are with him, he's on IAM business thus will HAVE to stick to speed limits. However, that shouldn't stop you learning from what he does, why he does it and what the other options are. I'm not saying he's right, but understanding his approach and, after careful consideration, deciding there's a better approach is very much a learning exercise.
PS Just because someone has successfully played Russian Roulette on 25+ previous occasions doesn't mean that they're really good at it!
There's great instruction that will boost your skills hugely, but I think you either have to go to Rapid Training or be lucky with the IAM Observer you're allocated. There are some good IAM Observers around, but my money would be on Rapid.
and he has a different take on advanced riding.
seveb said:
Get some training from a police biker who's spent 20 years escorting, chasing and catching on various roads in terrible conditions and survived to tell the tale. They tend to have a very different attitude and I agree are well worth engaging with for training - well worth the cost.
... with Rapid Training ... you'll come away thinking "I really had no idea I could do that".
Also, Kevin Williams from Survival Skills is very good ... with Rapid Training ... you'll come away thinking "I really had no idea I could do that".
and he has a different take on advanced riding.NGRhodes said:
https://www.survivalskills.co.uk is a good complement to the IAM/Roadcraft style systems.
snagzie, I'd skip ERS and go to either Rapid or Survival Skills.I did Bikesafe 10 years ago, the others attending were mostly fairly inexperienced, the classroom sessions were very much about being legal. However, when we got out for the observed ride it was all about straight lining corners (where safe) road positioning and not too much concern about exceeding the NSL, I have to say that I got much more out of it than I thought I was going to.
black-k1 said:
I think people are being just a little naive here.
There is no way any organisation can be seen to be doing anything other than sticking to speed limits. Breaking the speed limit anywhere, regardless how sensible and safe it may appear, is illegal, and no organisation can be seen to be actively promoting illegal activity. Remember, riders have been prosecuted for being the group leader where, they themselves were not speeding but others in the group were. Any organisation being seen to encourage or condone speeding is, at this time when everyone "knows" speeding is the greatest evil on the road, opening themselves up for a whole heap of trouble.
I'm sure that once you are away from the "confines" of the official observation/test process then things may well be different for a lot of members. (Though not all, I accept.)
.
By contrast, the RoSPA observer my son had liked to make progress. Speed limits 50 and above he viewed as optional whilst making it clear he wasn't expecting you to exceed the speed limit, so they are out there even now.There is no way any organisation can be seen to be doing anything other than sticking to speed limits. Breaking the speed limit anywhere, regardless how sensible and safe it may appear, is illegal, and no organisation can be seen to be actively promoting illegal activity. Remember, riders have been prosecuted for being the group leader where, they themselves were not speeding but others in the group were. Any organisation being seen to encourage or condone speeding is, at this time when everyone "knows" speeding is the greatest evil on the road, opening themselves up for a whole heap of trouble.
I'm sure that once you are away from the "confines" of the official observation/test process then things may well be different for a lot of members. (Though not all, I accept.)
.
In the past, I've been observed by coppers on both a full dress police bike and a plain bike where they have encouraged progress. Just don't exceed 100mph the first one said in North Wales, anything alse, I'll sort if we get stopped!
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