Are modern motorcycles over-complicated?
Discussion
There was an amusing little item in the latest issue of Ride magazine.
Apparently, if you apply the brakes of your KTM Adventure 790 when the ignition is switched off, then the brake light can stick on.
Except it's not stuck on, because there's nothing to stick.
KTM have replaced reliable, cheap, easy to replace, mechanical or hydraulic stoplight switches with sensors in the ABS system, meaning that this apparently simple fault requires the ABS to be dismantled by a dealer's workshop.
I'd been wondering how long it would be before the motorcycle emulated the car, and became something that you wouldn't want to run without a full manufacturer's warranty.
KISS ("Keep it simple, stupid!") replaced by "make it more complicated, more expensive, and more difficult to repair, for no good reason".
Apparently, if you apply the brakes of your KTM Adventure 790 when the ignition is switched off, then the brake light can stick on.
Except it's not stuck on, because there's nothing to stick.
KTM have replaced reliable, cheap, easy to replace, mechanical or hydraulic stoplight switches with sensors in the ABS system, meaning that this apparently simple fault requires the ABS to be dismantled by a dealer's workshop.
I'd been wondering how long it would be before the motorcycle emulated the car, and became something that you wouldn't want to run without a full manufacturer's warranty.
KISS ("Keep it simple, stupid!") replaced by "make it more complicated, more expensive, and more difficult to repair, for no good reason".
gareth_r said:
KISS ("Keep it simple, stupid!") replaced by "make it more complicated, more expensive, and more difficult to repair, for no good reason".
People want more performance, more toys more x/y/z, and you don't get that without technology being incorporated.The problem is we also want them cheaper than ever - in that case you end up with things being done on the cheap, which is why they break. If they could sell them at +50% and engineer them better, that's exactly what they'd do.
Krikkit said:
People want more performance, more toys more x/y/z, and you don't get that without technology being incorporated.
The problem is we also want them cheaper than ever - in that case you end up with things being done on the cheap, which is why they break. If they could sell them at +50% and engineer them better, that's exactly what they'd do.
Do people really want more toys, and more complication? It seems to me manufacturers keep adding things to try and stay ahead of the competition, which is precisely the attitude that has made cars so full of tech. I would much rather have a simple sports bike with sensible power than a 200hp monster that requires computers to make it easy to rideThe problem is we also want them cheaper than ever - in that case you end up with things being done on the cheap, which is why they break. If they could sell them at +50% and engineer them better, that's exactly what they'd do.
When your riding them, they dont feel complicated, its when something packs that the complication question rears its head or when your hear a story like the KTM tale..
I like my older classic bikes but I also like the tech on my modern one, some of it id like on my older bikes, the quickshifter on my BM is an item of joy I never tire of, if that broke, id get it repaired immediately...so I guess thats me sitting on the fence!
I like my older classic bikes but I also like the tech on my modern one, some of it id like on my older bikes, the quickshifter on my BM is an item of joy I never tire of, if that broke, id get it repaired immediately...so I guess thats me sitting on the fence!
Krikkit said:
gareth_r said:
KISS ("Keep it simple, stupid!") replaced by "make it more complicated, more expensive, and more difficult to repair, for no good reason".
People want more performance, more toys more x/y/z, and you don't get that without technology being incorporated.The problem is we also want them cheaper than ever - in that case you end up with things being done on the cheap, which is why they break. If they could sell them at +50% and engineer them better, that's exactly what they'd do.
What I don't understand is something that's simple, reliable, cheap, and easy to fix being replaced by something that doesn't actually work any better, but has none of those attributes. Nobody will ever say "I'm not buying that, it has brake light switches!".
I'd rather for improvements in suspension, traction control, ABS, IMU's, fuel usage & emissions, usable torque. Rather than top end power numbers which seem to be the in thing at the moment - oh hey! my motorcycle has 220bhp, but only 100 of that is usable on the road due to pot holes, traffic lights, speed cameras, and hob nobs..
gareth_r said:
KTM have replaced reliable, cheap, easy to replace, mechanical or hydraulic stoplight switches with sensors in the ABS system
The pressure sensors are already in the ABS modulator as it needs to know the amount of braking requested by the rider. What KTM have done is removed a component that is no longer required, namely the stoplight switches. This makes the bike cheaper to produce.In my experience, the mechanical switches are prone to damage by ham-fisted technicians, whereas the hydraulic ones have a large tolerance which means the light may not operate on gentle applications.
Probably a few items add up to manufacturers making 'safety' features (whether you believe they are safer or not is not relevant here) and insurance penalising those who don't have them. Obviously doesn't just apply to the UK.
On the other hand... define 'overly' complicated - cars have been like this for years and more so in many instances. I dont know of a bike that has an alarm if you put shopping on the passenger seat without securing it with a seatbelt or a bike that has a light to show something is in your blind spot, or tries to stop the vehicle before it has sensed an impact.
However, I think I know where you are going but then what is the optimum limit, carbs? Manually tensioned cam chains? Total loss oil lurication? Only kick start?
On the other hand... define 'overly' complicated - cars have been like this for years and more so in many instances. I dont know of a bike that has an alarm if you put shopping on the passenger seat without securing it with a seatbelt or a bike that has a light to show something is in your blind spot, or tries to stop the vehicle before it has sensed an impact.
However, I think I know where you are going but then what is the optimum limit, carbs? Manually tensioned cam chains? Total loss oil lurication? Only kick start?
radar adaptive cruise control is coming to bikes shortly. Must say I never have been riding along thinking " I wish my bike would follow this car in front so I can go to sleep for the rest of my journey" LOL
Self riding bikes have been demonstrated too....so perhaps if we put the two features together you can get on your bike and go to sleep whilst it takes you to work.......
Self riding bikes have been demonstrated too....so perhaps if we put the two features together you can get on your bike and go to sleep whilst it takes you to work.......
The perceived requirement for more and more power with less and less weight, coupled with regulatory necessities around emissions, ABS etc. mean that many of the "complicated" features have to be there. The rest are very simple cheap additions that give a longer list of features to the punter buying the bike.
While modern bikes are complicated I don't think there is an alternative while still delivering what the buying public apparently want.
While modern bikes are complicated I don't think there is an alternative while still delivering what the buying public apparently want.
Yes overcomplucation... sometimes welcome if tech that helps with overall experience, others just for the sake of a new model to promote sales.
The marketing people don’t give people what they want... they tell people that they should want it and not want it would be perceived odd by their peers.
In cars it’s crazier even. products constantly improving to maximise profit not necessarily ownership experience.
The marketing people don’t give people what they want... they tell people that they should want it and not want it would be perceived odd by their peers.
In cars it’s crazier even. products constantly improving to maximise profit not necessarily ownership experience.
ABS is a game changer. I've only had it on one bike out of the 7 or 8 I've owned, but it's the right thing to bring an aid which can beat probably the vast majority of us in a braking contest. Most of the time we won't even know it's there.
I'd take a lighter and more engaging ride over a bike laden down with tech improvements though..
I'd take a lighter and more engaging ride over a bike laden down with tech improvements though..
I think it depends on what you mean by over-complicated.
If you mean complicating the experience then maybe, though that’s a matter of taste.
If you mean complicating construction and the way they work, bikes are actually getting simpler.
A great deal of functionality can now be controlled by the computer that’s also required to run the EFI. Drive-by-wire throttle and riding modes, quick-shifter, ABS, dashboard, bluetooth, active suspension … all kinds of stuff centred on one module and a fairly standard set of sensors. Way simpler than having a heap of mechanical subsystems.
In the end, a bike is pretty much the most basic way of using an engine to propel a human being down a road.
If that requires electronics, or anything else for that matter, it doesn’t really diminish the purity of the experience.
I like the minimalist riding experience, but I’m also completely happy with EFI that keeps my bike running well, a digital dash that gives me plenty of info and ABS that compensates for my lack of bike-handling talent.
k
The wonderful thing about motorcycling is that most people don't ride very much, so even 15 or 20 year old "simple" bikes can be had for reasonable sums of money with low miles on them.
In this respect, it doesnt matter if new bikes are "too complicated", because there;s a bike out there that's "simpler" with less mileage on it after 20 years than the average car driver puts on in a single year.
Personally I like tech; I can only imagine that KTM issue is just a software bug and could be programmed out somewhat easily. All in all the main things you need to do on a bike (main servicing) is nothing special - fluids, filters, plugs - and can be acomplished by the home mechanic in most cases. Some things (bleeding brake fluid) might require special tools (looking at you, Honda) but it's such an infrequent thing it's little issue to pay for it. I think people have to make up their mind on what bike they want based on more than just the riding experience; if you can only just afford the monthly repayments but not the servicing at the dealer, maybe you should have bought something that allowed you to have money aside for servicing (either by yourself or by a professional).
In this respect, it doesnt matter if new bikes are "too complicated", because there;s a bike out there that's "simpler" with less mileage on it after 20 years than the average car driver puts on in a single year.
Personally I like tech; I can only imagine that KTM issue is just a software bug and could be programmed out somewhat easily. All in all the main things you need to do on a bike (main servicing) is nothing special - fluids, filters, plugs - and can be acomplished by the home mechanic in most cases. Some things (bleeding brake fluid) might require special tools (looking at you, Honda) but it's such an infrequent thing it's little issue to pay for it. I think people have to make up their mind on what bike they want based on more than just the riding experience; if you can only just afford the monthly repayments but not the servicing at the dealer, maybe you should have bought something that allowed you to have money aside for servicing (either by yourself or by a professional).
klootzak said:
I think it depends on what you mean by over-complicated.
If you mean complicating the experience then maybe, though that’s a matter of taste.
If you mean complicating construction and the way they work, bikes are actually getting simpler.
A great deal of functionality can now be controlled by the computer that’s also required to run the EFI. Drive-by-wire throttle and riding modes, quick-shifter, ABS, dashboard, bluetooth, active suspension … all kinds of stuff centred on one module and a fairly standard set of sensors. Way simpler than having a heap of mechanical subsystems.
In the end, a bike is pretty much the most basic way of using an engine to propel a human being down a road.
If that requires electronics, or anything else for that matter, it doesn’t really diminish the purity of the experience.
I like the minimalist riding experience, but I’m also completely happy with EFI that keeps my bike running well, a digital dash that gives me plenty of info and ABS that compensates for my lack of bike-handling talent.
k
Good post.Whilst they obviously can, I think it's very widely held misconception that electronic systems inherently add complexity. If you mean complicating the experience then maybe, though that’s a matter of taste.
If you mean complicating construction and the way they work, bikes are actually getting simpler.
A great deal of functionality can now be controlled by the computer that’s also required to run the EFI. Drive-by-wire throttle and riding modes, quick-shifter, ABS, dashboard, bluetooth, active suspension … all kinds of stuff centred on one module and a fairly standard set of sensors. Way simpler than having a heap of mechanical subsystems.
In the end, a bike is pretty much the most basic way of using an engine to propel a human being down a road.
If that requires electronics, or anything else for that matter, it doesn’t really diminish the purity of the experience.
I like the minimalist riding experience, but I’m also completely happy with EFI that keeps my bike running well, a digital dash that gives me plenty of info and ABS that compensates for my lack of bike-handling talent.
k
With the pressures of efficiency in manufacturing, it doesn't make much sense for this to be universally true.
In any instance, I'd rather have thought we'd all prefer a more reliable and higher performing electronic system, than an unreliable and lower performing mechanical/less specialised electrical one.
Prof Prolapse said:
Good post.Whilst they obviously can, I think it's very widely held misconception that electronic systems inherently add complexity.
With the pressures of efficiency in manufacturing, it doesn't make much sense for this to be universally true.
In any instance, I'd rather have thought we'd all prefer a more reliable and higher performing electronic system, than an unreliable and lower performing mechanical/less specialised electrical one.
+1With the pressures of efficiency in manufacturing, it doesn't make much sense for this to be universally true.
In any instance, I'd rather have thought we'd all prefer a more reliable and higher performing electronic system, than an unreliable and lower performing mechanical/less specialised electrical one.
And simple doesn't necessarily mean reliable.
The front brake light switch for my Deauville is apparently very simple, just a bendy piece of metal in a little plastic box, but it's an unreliable piece of crap. I'm on my third in 50,000 miles.
And then they wonder why motorbike sales are down. what a joke. this is the problem with trying to beat everyone else by playing spec sheet top trumps, you just back yourself into a corner with no way out.
people dont realise how much added weight all the sensors and cabling add to the bike.
thankfully old bikes are cheap and easy to keep running.
people dont realise how much added weight all the sensors and cabling add to the bike.
thankfully old bikes are cheap and easy to keep running.
Edited by Kevin_Birth on Monday 10th August 11:08
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