I've been sold a dud bike, return engine?
Discussion
Hello all,
A few months ago I bought a used motocross bike from a large dealer, and its all went pear shaped so I am looking for your opinions on what I should do next.
I was told the bike was A1 conditon, recently re-built, ran as sweet as a nut blah, blah so I trusted them and bought it.
Due to various work / covid reasons I had the bike delivered to my home and it was a couple of months before I actually got to it.
On initial inspection it looked ok, but when I tried to start it I couldn't get it to go.
No problem I thought, it's just with it sitting, stale fuel etc.
I put some fresh fuel in it, and eventually got it to start by pouring a splash of fuel down the plug hole.
Initially it seem to run ok, but it very quickly became obvious that all was not well, a nightmare to start, hunting when hot and smoking badly.
I installed a new plug, new reeds (it's a 2 stroke), and cleaned the carb to result in no improvement.
It was then I began to suspect a vacuum leak from the crank seals.
So, I thought as it had been a while since I had bought the bike and I couldn't be bothered with the hassle of dealing with the dealer I would do them myself (I'm a qualified mechanic).
On removing the side covers I found that parts of the powervalve mechanism were completely missing, and the crankshaft bearings were shot, with significant play observed in the crankshaft.
I then called the dealer and explained the situation and sent him videos of the engines issues.
He initially proposed that I send the engine back, which I declined to do due to the fact I want to be certain that any work is carried out to a high standard. He agreed with me that I would continue with the stripdown and provide him with a list of the required parts to remedy the issues.
On further stripdown it became apparent that this engine is heavily worn, with a full rebuild, including piston and barrel re-plate required.
Total cost of all of this is estimated to be around 1k.
I have provided the dealer with the list of parts required, and highlighted the fact that it would be unreasonable of me to expect them to cover the cost of everything, as it's a used bike, I like to think I'm being quite reasonable and to perfectly honest if they covered half of the price of the parts I would be ok with that as I want to ensure it is rebuilt to the highest standard.
However, they are not accepting this and it looks like the only option they are offering, is for me to return the engine for them to inspect.
I don't want to do this, as it will then be out of my possession (I don't trust them to actually send it back) and even if they do rebuild it, I'm certain the minimum of work would be done, which is not acceptable to me.
So, as I see it I have two options, send him the engine and receive it back with unknown internal condition.
Or suck it up and splash the cash myself.
Any thoughts on any other options?
Thanks.
A few months ago I bought a used motocross bike from a large dealer, and its all went pear shaped so I am looking for your opinions on what I should do next.
I was told the bike was A1 conditon, recently re-built, ran as sweet as a nut blah, blah so I trusted them and bought it.
Due to various work / covid reasons I had the bike delivered to my home and it was a couple of months before I actually got to it.
On initial inspection it looked ok, but when I tried to start it I couldn't get it to go.
No problem I thought, it's just with it sitting, stale fuel etc.
I put some fresh fuel in it, and eventually got it to start by pouring a splash of fuel down the plug hole.
Initially it seem to run ok, but it very quickly became obvious that all was not well, a nightmare to start, hunting when hot and smoking badly.
I installed a new plug, new reeds (it's a 2 stroke), and cleaned the carb to result in no improvement.
It was then I began to suspect a vacuum leak from the crank seals.
So, I thought as it had been a while since I had bought the bike and I couldn't be bothered with the hassle of dealing with the dealer I would do them myself (I'm a qualified mechanic).
On removing the side covers I found that parts of the powervalve mechanism were completely missing, and the crankshaft bearings were shot, with significant play observed in the crankshaft.
I then called the dealer and explained the situation and sent him videos of the engines issues.
He initially proposed that I send the engine back, which I declined to do due to the fact I want to be certain that any work is carried out to a high standard. He agreed with me that I would continue with the stripdown and provide him with a list of the required parts to remedy the issues.
On further stripdown it became apparent that this engine is heavily worn, with a full rebuild, including piston and barrel re-plate required.
Total cost of all of this is estimated to be around 1k.
I have provided the dealer with the list of parts required, and highlighted the fact that it would be unreasonable of me to expect them to cover the cost of everything, as it's a used bike, I like to think I'm being quite reasonable and to perfectly honest if they covered half of the price of the parts I would be ok with that as I want to ensure it is rebuilt to the highest standard.
However, they are not accepting this and it looks like the only option they are offering, is for me to return the engine for them to inspect.
I don't want to do this, as it will then be out of my possession (I don't trust them to actually send it back) and even if they do rebuild it, I'm certain the minimum of work would be done, which is not acceptable to me.
So, as I see it I have two options, send him the engine and receive it back with unknown internal condition.
Or suck it up and splash the cash myself.
Any thoughts on any other options?
Thanks.
Take it the dealer isn't particularly local? I'd imagine that the cost of shipping the engine back and forward would be prohibitive.
See if they will do a video call where you can show the issues, prove the engine number and that its from the bike in question?
I believe CRA dictates any fault found within 6 months is deemed to have been present at sale unless the seller can prove otherwise. The fact you've taken so long to do anything with the bike isn't great and will be whats raising alarm bells for them.
See if they will do a video call where you can show the issues, prove the engine number and that its from the bike in question?
I believe CRA dictates any fault found within 6 months is deemed to have been present at sale unless the seller can prove otherwise. The fact you've taken so long to do anything with the bike isn't great and will be whats raising alarm bells for them.
andburg said:
Take it the dealer isn't particularly local? I'd imagine that the cost of shipping the engine back and forward would be prohibitive.
Yes, the dealer is the other end of the country which obviuosly isn't ideal.andburg said:
See if they will do a video call where you can show the issues, prove the engine number and that its from the bike in question?
That is an option, however I won't get to the bike for another 10 days and I have already sent them a video of the knocking crankshaft bearing.andburg said:
I believe CRA dictates any fault found within 6 months is deemed to have been present at sale unless the seller can prove otherwise. The fact you've taken so long to do anything with the bike isn't great and will be whats raising alarm bells for them.
I agree, the thing is, as they are offering to accept the engine back for repair, they are fulfilling their obligation as far as I know.Unfortunately I just think there is no way that the engine will be repaired to a good standard considering the cost involved and the skill level of their mechanics, presuming that the bike had been through some kind of an inspection prior to sale (which I actually doubt it did)
Thanks.
they're offering to repair, they're meeting their obligation.
Anything above this is goodwill.
risk if buying something from the other end of the country I'm afraid. Unless they want to do it from goodwill i don't see much you can force until they've had at least a chance to repair.
Think you''re going to end up sending them the engine as your only other avenue is rejection and that means sending them the whole bike.
Anything above this is goodwill.
risk if buying something from the other end of the country I'm afraid. Unless they want to do it from goodwill i don't see much you can force until they've had at least a chance to repair.
Think you''re going to end up sending them the engine as your only other avenue is rejection and that means sending them the whole bike.
Why not send them the engine and let them repair it?
When it comes back, you have the option of stripping it down and seeing what they have done. You can then either, upgrade the repair with the engine in bits, or put it back together and accept it's been repaired to a good standard. That has surely got to be a win/win?
When it comes back, you have the option of stripping it down and seeing what they have done. You can then either, upgrade the repair with the engine in bits, or put it back together and accept it's been repaired to a good standard. That has surely got to be a win/win?
Tyre Smoke said:
Why not send them the engine and let them repair it?
When it comes back, you have the option of stripping it down and seeing what they have done. You can then either, upgrade the repair with the engine in bits, or put it back together and accept it's been repaired to a good standard. That has surely got to be a win/win?
Yeah, I see what your saying, and it's not a bad idea, I just want to minimise the hassle, as I know it will turn into a a situation where I'm chasing them on the phone for updates etc. Also, it's obvious that it would be built with the cheapest parts and to what standard? I know I could strip it and re-do it but then I'm just left with a pile of cheap parts and I'm 3 months further down line without a bike. When it comes back, you have the option of stripping it down and seeing what they have done. You can then either, upgrade the repair with the engine in bits, or put it back together and accept it's been repaired to a good standard. That has surely got to be a win/win?
xstian said:
What the bike?
£1000 is a lot for parts to rebuild a 2T, although its surprising how quickly it adds up. I assume this is because using genuine parts and replacing missing powervalve?
Its a 1993 CR250R, genuine parts are coming in at 750 including a new crank. A piston kit and re-plate is on top of this.£1000 is a lot for parts to rebuild a 2T, although its surprising how quickly it adds up. I assume this is because using genuine parts and replacing missing powervalve?
Having been in this situation with a car, I'd say let them repair it, ask them to give you an itemised list of what's been replaced, then if something isn't quite right you can rectify it on your own.
I tried exactly what you did - getting a parts list and asking them to contribute - in the end they just stonewalled me as they offered to repair it if I took the (dead) car back to them.
Things like piston and barrel, can you even get hold of cheap crap for them?
I tried exactly what you did - getting a parts list and asking them to contribute - in the end they just stonewalled me as they offered to repair it if I took the (dead) car back to them.
Things like piston and barrel, can you even get hold of cheap crap for them?
Krikkit said:
Having been in this situation with a car, I'd say let them repair it, ask them to give you an itemised list of what's been replaced, then if something isn't quite right you can rectify it on your own.
Things like piston and barrel, can you even get hold of cheap crap for them?
You can get different brands of pistons of varying quality.Things like piston and barrel, can you even get hold of cheap crap for them?
It wouldn't surprise me if they don't even replate the cylinder and just chuck a piston in it.
Ritchie335is said:
You can get different brands of pistons of varying quality.
It wouldn't surprise me if they don't even replate the cylinder and just chuck a piston in it.
Surely a borescope inspection would show up cylinder wear/scoring? Presumably the OP being a mechanic, or someone he knows, would have access to one, considering they are sub £10 for smartphone ones these days.It wouldn't surprise me if they don't even replate the cylinder and just chuck a piston in it.
I can empathise with both sides in this dispute. Its basically about each party establishing a level of trust and competence in the other, with the seller already being in doubt, having, possibly unknowingly, sold an incomplete bike.
Returning the engine, with a set of caveats and pre-return agreement of what constitutes acceptable parts and workmanship would seem the way forward.
I agree that it is wishful thinking on a 27 year old bike to assume that none of its owners have ever used a pattern part, in maintenance/repairs.
Apologies but buying a 27 year old mx bike is only going to end up one way......
For ANY 2T bike, always budget for a top end at a minimum and more likely a full crank up rebuild..
Perhaps this is the ideal opportunity to learn how to rebuild a full motor (it's easy) as ownership of such a bike, if used with a modicum of intent will get you where you are now anyway.
Everything is available, the tools required are minor and it's a good way to get your hands dirty ......
For ANY 2T bike, always budget for a top end at a minimum and more likely a full crank up rebuild..
Perhaps this is the ideal opportunity to learn how to rebuild a full motor (it's easy) as ownership of such a bike, if used with a modicum of intent will get you where you are now anyway.
Everything is available, the tools required are minor and it's a good way to get your hands dirty ......
Steve Bass said:
Apologies but buying a 27 year old mx bike is only going to end up one way......
For ANY 2T bike, always budget for a top end at a minimum and more likely a full crank up rebuild..
Perhaps this is the ideal opportunity to learn how to rebuild a full motor (it's easy) as ownership of such a bike, if used with a modicum of intent will get you where you are now anyway.
Everything is available, the tools required are minor and it's a good way to get your hands dirty ......
I think the point is OP hunted down and overpaid for one that had just been rebuilt and it still needs all the workFor ANY 2T bike, always budget for a top end at a minimum and more likely a full crank up rebuild..
Perhaps this is the ideal opportunity to learn how to rebuild a full motor (it's easy) as ownership of such a bike, if used with a modicum of intent will get you where you are now anyway.
Everything is available, the tools required are minor and it's a good way to get your hands dirty ......
andburg said:
I think the point is OP hunted down and overpaid for one that had just been rebuilt and it still needs all the work
Understand but we are where we are. Yes, dealer could "fix" the motor but to what degree of quality and how long will it hang together.....When life gives you lemons, make lemonade
andburg said:
Yeah I think OP will end up with a token contribution based on the dealers cost for a top end rebuild.
It’s not ideal but there is no way the dealer will rebuild the engine to OP expectations so he’d only end up tearing it apart again
Exactly. It’s not ideal but there is no way the dealer will rebuild the engine to OP expectations so he’d only end up tearing it apart again
Perhaps the dealer will offer some $$ towards the repairs and call it quits.
Short of a Briggs Stratton mower motor, a CR motor is as simple as it gets......
Lots of help available here and across the web, what's the worst that can happen?
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