Chinese bikes to take over?
Discussion
https://youtu.be/opVGIzOPPuk?si=LL_W6I2S_tcKhz5l
Just watched this MCN video on the new CF Moto 675 SRR. It got a very positive review. First time I’ve seen such a positive review for a Chinese bike. Normally it is more “great price but…”. Perhaps it won’t be so positive when they try it on the road.
Yes it is down on power compared to the CBR600 RR but the price is crazy - £6700 including a 4 year warranty and road side assistance up to 8 years if you service it at a dealership. That is nuts. I think I paid over £5k for my first bike - a ZX6R - back in 1997 and that only had about 10 bhp more.
It will be interesting to see whether it is reliable and how it copes with British winters.
There are some great value new bikes out there at the moment.
Just watched this MCN video on the new CF Moto 675 SRR. It got a very positive review. First time I’ve seen such a positive review for a Chinese bike. Normally it is more “great price but…”. Perhaps it won’t be so positive when they try it on the road.
Yes it is down on power compared to the CBR600 RR but the price is crazy - £6700 including a 4 year warranty and road side assistance up to 8 years if you service it at a dealership. That is nuts. I think I paid over £5k for my first bike - a ZX6R - back in 1997 and that only had about 10 bhp more.
It will be interesting to see whether it is reliable and how it copes with British winters.
There are some great value new bikes out there at the moment.
I don’t think they’ll take over, but it’s a very welcome blow to the motorcycle industry that has been resting on laurels for years.
I sincerely doubt Honda would be putting out such great value bikes like the Hornet and the GB350 if they weren’t worried about the Chinese coming through. Most Chinese bikes are junk, but CF Moto are producing bikes that seem genuinely good, for prices that are reasonable.
For years the adventure crowd were crying out for a 300-400cc adventure bike with great suspension, a twin cylinder engine and actual off-road ability. None of the Japanese manufacturers would make one. The BMW and KTM versions were/are road bikes. The CFMOTO 450MT has blown the other manufacturers out of the water, and the waiting list for them is now September due to demand.
As for reliability, a four year warranty suggests that they’ll at least stand behind their products. That’s an expensive business choice if your bike is crap. As for finish and how they’ll stand up to winter, check out the engine paint on an R1250GS or the frame of an Africa Twin after a year of running it in all weathers…
Political thoughts aside, the Chinese (CF Moto really) will absolutely force the established manufacturers to up their game. They’ve all got incredibly lazy, chasing bigger and bigger HP figures, heavier and heavier bikes, lacklustre parallel twins, fitting crap suspension and electronic gimmicks. All the while prices have gone up and up relative to wages.
I have no great love for CFmoto but here’s a triple, with enough power, a genuinely sporty chassis and decent suspension that’s near enough track day ready, for the price of an A2 bike. They deserve to be respected for that at least.
I sincerely doubt Honda would be putting out such great value bikes like the Hornet and the GB350 if they weren’t worried about the Chinese coming through. Most Chinese bikes are junk, but CF Moto are producing bikes that seem genuinely good, for prices that are reasonable.
For years the adventure crowd were crying out for a 300-400cc adventure bike with great suspension, a twin cylinder engine and actual off-road ability. None of the Japanese manufacturers would make one. The BMW and KTM versions were/are road bikes. The CFMOTO 450MT has blown the other manufacturers out of the water, and the waiting list for them is now September due to demand.
As for reliability, a four year warranty suggests that they’ll at least stand behind their products. That’s an expensive business choice if your bike is crap. As for finish and how they’ll stand up to winter, check out the engine paint on an R1250GS or the frame of an Africa Twin after a year of running it in all weathers…
Political thoughts aside, the Chinese (CF Moto really) will absolutely force the established manufacturers to up their game. They’ve all got incredibly lazy, chasing bigger and bigger HP figures, heavier and heavier bikes, lacklustre parallel twins, fitting crap suspension and electronic gimmicks. All the while prices have gone up and up relative to wages.
I have no great love for CFmoto but here’s a triple, with enough power, a genuinely sporty chassis and decent suspension that’s near enough track day ready, for the price of an A2 bike. They deserve to be respected for that at least.
Good!
Mainstream manufacturers have been taking the piss in various ways for years now.
Suzuki's pricing for the revamped DRZ is mad
Honda never seem to put any decent rider aids on anything other than the AT or Blade. Their CRF, whilst reliable has the most comically undersprung suspension of any bike I've ever sat on or ridden to the point of being dangerous for heavier risers yet they choose to ignore it.
BMW can't seem to make anything that resists even the slightest bit of road salt and their consistently appalling reliability issues. It's ironic that so many European bike owners are ranting about Chinese quality on Facebook.....
There were pictures the other day of a brand new tiger 1200 that was having a full engine rebuild due to paint peeling.
The list goes on and on.
Yet here we are with a CFMOTO 450 that's getting near universal praise, with a huge amount of tech for a smaller bike and at a good price point.
As above, the only one to recognise the threat (re pricing) seem to be Honda with the GB350 and Hornet pricing.
Mainstream manufacturers have been taking the piss in various ways for years now.
Suzuki's pricing for the revamped DRZ is mad
Honda never seem to put any decent rider aids on anything other than the AT or Blade. Their CRF, whilst reliable has the most comically undersprung suspension of any bike I've ever sat on or ridden to the point of being dangerous for heavier risers yet they choose to ignore it.
BMW can't seem to make anything that resists even the slightest bit of road salt and their consistently appalling reliability issues. It's ironic that so many European bike owners are ranting about Chinese quality on Facebook.....
There were pictures the other day of a brand new tiger 1200 that was having a full engine rebuild due to paint peeling.
The list goes on and on.
Yet here we are with a CFMOTO 450 that's getting near universal praise, with a huge amount of tech for a smaller bike and at a good price point.
As above, the only one to recognise the threat (re pricing) seem to be Honda with the GB350 and Hornet pricing.
Edited by Biker9090 on Saturday 22 February 08:54
As new bikers come in the opinion that all Chinese bikes are junk will begin to fade.
It’s the established riders that are wary of them. Someone coming into biking for the first time will be far less prejudiced (and I use that word carefully). Anyone just passing their test will be carefully considering the price.
As an analogy you could consider cheap car tyres. Drivers with a bit of knowledge and experience will still avoid them unless they absolutely can’t afford anything else because of the reputation they had. Whereas okay they’re not great but a vast improvement on what they used to be.
It’s the established riders that are wary of them. Someone coming into biking for the first time will be far less prejudiced (and I use that word carefully). Anyone just passing their test will be carefully considering the price.
As an analogy you could consider cheap car tyres. Drivers with a bit of knowledge and experience will still avoid them unless they absolutely can’t afford anything else because of the reputation they had. Whereas okay they’re not great but a vast improvement on what they used to be.
Biker9090 said:
Good!
BMW can't seem to make anything that resists even the slightest bit of road salt and their consistently appalling reliability issues. It's ironic that so many European bike owners are ranting about Chinese quality on Facebook.....
Is that because so many “european” bikes are made in china ? BMW can't seem to make anything that resists even the slightest bit of road salt and their consistently appalling reliability issues. It's ironic that so many European bike owners are ranting about Chinese quality on Facebook.....
Edited by Biker9090 on Saturday 22 February 08:54
WarnieV6GT said:
You need a disrupter to bring prices down.
I don't know how the motorcycle manufacturers are doing, other than KTM, who are essentially bankrupt But looking at the state of play of the motorcycle dealers, I'd suggest there is no fat left to cut with so many going bankrupt
I suspect what it will actually do is bankrupt some companies or they will just leave the motorcycle sector
Drawweight said:
As new bikers come in the opinion that all Chinese bikes are junk will begin to fade.
It’s the established riders that are wary of them. Someone coming into biking for the first time will be far less prejudiced (and I use that word carefully). Anyone just passing their test will be carefully considering the price.
As an analogy you could consider cheap car tyres. Drivers with a bit of knowledge and experience will still avoid them unless they absolutely can’t afford anything else because of the reputation they had. Whereas okay they’re not great but a vast improvement on what they used to be.
I’m sure you are correct , I’m going on 62 and I’m not sure there are many bike purchases left in me so i buy carefully , therefore I’m not ready to take a risk with a chinese purchase . It’s the established riders that are wary of them. Someone coming into biking for the first time will be far less prejudiced (and I use that word carefully). Anyone just passing their test will be carefully considering the price.
As an analogy you could consider cheap car tyres. Drivers with a bit of knowledge and experience will still avoid them unless they absolutely can’t afford anything else because of the reputation they had. Whereas okay they’re not great but a vast improvement on what they used to be.
Having owned a couple of chinese bikes over the years as stop gap measures between 'proper' bikes as well as having bought and restored/repaired a fair few for fun - they generally have not been 'bad' for quite some time. There are defintiely weak points such as cheap spaghetti string chains, softer metal sprockets, and VERY cheap chrome that peels away after a single UK winter - but in general I've not subscribed to the 'cheap chinese crap' notion for quite some time despite having been biking in various guises for 35 years.
I've seen a video of the chinese copy of the 1200 HD sportster engine, be interesting to see that come to market since HD themselves no longer sell what is arguable their most popular model, although unsure how they would get through EU emissions testing etc. which is what killed the original HD air cooled designs according to HD. The whole market in general needs a shake up if its going to survive, motorcycling just isnt appealing to younger people and the price point for entry is too high for most when all gear/insurance etc. is considered. Reasonable quality and affordable 250-600cc bikes which dont cost an arm and a leg to run/insure/repair can only be a good thing in my eyes.
I've seen a video of the chinese copy of the 1200 HD sportster engine, be interesting to see that come to market since HD themselves no longer sell what is arguable their most popular model, although unsure how they would get through EU emissions testing etc. which is what killed the original HD air cooled designs according to HD. The whole market in general needs a shake up if its going to survive, motorcycling just isnt appealing to younger people and the price point for entry is too high for most when all gear/insurance etc. is considered. Reasonable quality and affordable 250-600cc bikes which dont cost an arm and a leg to run/insure/repair can only be a good thing in my eyes.
DirtyHarley said:
The whole market in general needs a shake up if its going to survive, motorcycling just isnt appealing to younger people and the price point for entry is too high for most when all gear/insurance etc. is considered.
Reasonable quality and affordable 250-600cc bikes which dont cost an arm and a leg to run/insure/repair can only be a good thing in my eyes.
I think that just reflects a spoilt generation where they expect to buy everything newReasonable quality and affordable 250-600cc bikes which dont cost an arm and a leg to run/insure/repair can only be a good thing in my eyes.
There has never been a better / easier time to buy bikes, clothing, parts used or cheap via the internet
Wow that's a glowing report if I ever saw one.
Slight shame that it's not a bit more powerful but I totally understand and agree with what he's saying about the joy of being able to just wring something's neck and most bikes these days have way too much power to use.
Amazing package for the price
Slight shame that it's not a bit more powerful but I totally understand and agree with what he's saying about the joy of being able to just wring something's neck and most bikes these days have way too much power to use.
Amazing package for the price
KTMsm said:
DirtyHarley said:
The whole market in general needs a shake up if its going to survive, motorcycling just isnt appealing to younger people and the price point for entry is too high for most when all gear/insurance etc. is considered.
Reasonable quality and affordable 250-600cc bikes which dont cost an arm and a leg to run/insure/repair can only be a good thing in my eyes.
I think that just reflects a spoilt generation where they expect to buy everything newReasonable quality and affordable 250-600cc bikes which dont cost an arm and a leg to run/insure/repair can only be a good thing in my eyes.
There has never been a better / easier time to buy bikes, clothing, parts used or cheap via the internet
I very nearly bought a lexmoto as a pratice bike inbetween my CBT and DAS course last year, ended up spending a few hundred more on a Suzuki gsxr125, mainly down to friends opinions.
I agree with the last post though, I spent around £2500 getting into the scene which doesn’t include the bike itself, of course a big chunk of that was me wanting to go the DAS route (£1160) and an expensive helmet, but DAS is common apparently so I can’t be too much of a minority.
Insurance is a massive factor, at 34 it cost me £600 to insure the 125 on a provisional, once I passed and bought a ZX6R the insurance was roughly the same, the 17 year old who bought my 125 had to stump out 4 grand to insure it…
I agree with the last post though, I spent around £2500 getting into the scene which doesn’t include the bike itself, of course a big chunk of that was me wanting to go the DAS route (£1160) and an expensive helmet, but DAS is common apparently so I can’t be too much of a minority.
Insurance is a massive factor, at 34 it cost me £600 to insure the 125 on a provisional, once I passed and bought a ZX6R the insurance was roughly the same, the 17 year old who bought my 125 had to stump out 4 grand to insure it…
The Chinese have the ability to manufacture whatever they like, to the same or higher standard than anybody in the EU, at much lower cost. Transit costs more to the EU but that's the only drawback.
If you look at HiFi equipment - most of the old British brands are now amalgamated into IAG, same with some European brands, and they are all manufactured in Vietnam or China, or using parts from China. They are still good products but with a few exceptions, don't have any of the originality and character that made them great originally, many of them all sound similar now despite IAG saying they are voiced differently. And this globalisation is pushing other manufacturers to do the same just to compete. (Some that haven't yet, if you're looking for great HiFi, Sugden in Yorkshire, Neat Acoustics in Co Durham to name just a couple of what were once many, many ...)
The same is happening with EV cars. Now the engine differentiation is gone, why buy a BMW EV over a BYD ? Or those insipid Audi EVs which are just rolling jelly. BYD and MG are doing everyday EVs much better than Audi and at a much lower price. The differentiation is being engineered away, so in 10 years, I suspect one EV will be pretty much the same as the next, with outliers like Porsche and Bentley still making more exciting cars - the rest will be do you want cloth or fake leather, and what colour sir ?
Bikes will go the same way - Chinese and Indian brands will take over the western brands because they've got bigger markets, more money and very cheap labour in comparison. KTM is already going that way. Yamaha and Suzuki and not what they used to be and even Honda is creating more everyday bikes, moving down to meet the Chinese advance. Bikes are to me a luxury, a thrill, some excitement to be ingested in small quantities and globalisation is taking that away, or pushing me more towards the independents (or at least not eastern owned) like Ducati, old KTM and maybe Triumph and possibly Kawasaki. The excitement is being drilled out of bikes like it is cars, because the top, most exciting bikes sell the fewest.
If you look at HiFi equipment - most of the old British brands are now amalgamated into IAG, same with some European brands, and they are all manufactured in Vietnam or China, or using parts from China. They are still good products but with a few exceptions, don't have any of the originality and character that made them great originally, many of them all sound similar now despite IAG saying they are voiced differently. And this globalisation is pushing other manufacturers to do the same just to compete. (Some that haven't yet, if you're looking for great HiFi, Sugden in Yorkshire, Neat Acoustics in Co Durham to name just a couple of what were once many, many ...)
The same is happening with EV cars. Now the engine differentiation is gone, why buy a BMW EV over a BYD ? Or those insipid Audi EVs which are just rolling jelly. BYD and MG are doing everyday EVs much better than Audi and at a much lower price. The differentiation is being engineered away, so in 10 years, I suspect one EV will be pretty much the same as the next, with outliers like Porsche and Bentley still making more exciting cars - the rest will be do you want cloth or fake leather, and what colour sir ?
Bikes will go the same way - Chinese and Indian brands will take over the western brands because they've got bigger markets, more money and very cheap labour in comparison. KTM is already going that way. Yamaha and Suzuki and not what they used to be and even Honda is creating more everyday bikes, moving down to meet the Chinese advance. Bikes are to me a luxury, a thrill, some excitement to be ingested in small quantities and globalisation is taking that away, or pushing me more towards the independents (or at least not eastern owned) like Ducati, old KTM and maybe Triumph and possibly Kawasaki. The excitement is being drilled out of bikes like it is cars, because the top, most exciting bikes sell the fewest.
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