Mathewsons classic bikes: Tough market
Discussion
https://youtu.be/LUCn-yhDZrs?si=tWdzv_ts7EC8q8nf
Essentially their saying if you have to kick start it, the values are dropping and its hard to sell.
Guess it was only a mater of time. Cars, bikes, whatever. The younger generation have little to no interest.
Essentially their saying if you have to kick start it, the values are dropping and its hard to sell.
Guess it was only a mater of time. Cars, bikes, whatever. The younger generation have little to no interest.
I'm 41, so nicely placed for a mid-life crisis classic purchase. One thing I ought to declare is that I already own a 2004 Impreza and a 2002 FireBlade, so already have the vehicles part covered.
But to a large extent, objectively many of the bikes are old and crap, and without an emotional pull - the real reason behind these purchases - nobody will touch them. Add in the general economic malaise and what are retirees after - 80s bikes probably, rather than 60s.
But to a large extent, objectively many of the bikes are old and crap, and without an emotional pull - the real reason behind these purchases - nobody will touch them. Add in the general economic malaise and what are retirees after - 80s bikes probably, rather than 60s.
KTMsm said:
The difference between a pile of scrap and a valuable collector's piece is nostalgia
So if it means nothing to you, it's worthless because they're not great bikes, if they were, we'd still be making them like that
Some might say Enfield are still making them like that!So if it means nothing to you, it's worthless because they're not great bikes, if they were, we'd still be making them like that
I think man classics have been over valued because 'prices are only going up' has been taken for granted over the last 20 years or so.
There are a lot of collectable vehicles out there, and a declining number of collectors.
Now the market is cooling, there are less of the spekulant type of collector/punter.
When I had my first British bike, it was a 1960 bike in 1980. That was a 'classic' for 'enthusiasts' back then.
My current bike is 20 years old and doesn't stand out as looking old.
It's easy for many people to have an old bike SORNed in the shed. Not so much with cars.
I can see 'classic' car values falling a lot, except for the most desirable.
I wouldn't mind a tax-exempt classic to potter around on and fettle. But that urge is not worth a 5 figure sum.
Mathewsons knowledge of 80s era onwards bikes is pretty limited/generalized IMHO from all the auctions and TV episodes I've seen over the years. I appreciate that they know the older bike market better, as that's what Derek has probably dealt with most. I do agree though, that like early cars, bikes do have declining audiences which translates into lower demand and lower prices.
However, If I could buy an RVF400 for £1.5K-£2K in that condition then I'd bite their hand off. I believe that it actually sold for around the £4.5K mark not so long ago which is still pretty cheap, with really good, original examples being over £6K-7K.
However, If I could buy an RVF400 for £1.5K-£2K in that condition then I'd bite their hand off. I believe that it actually sold for around the £4.5K mark not so long ago which is still pretty cheap, with really good, original examples being over £6K-7K.
Edited by GameOverMan! on Thursday 8th May 10:48
Some people are making more money from pimping on youtube and TV than from selling bikes.
You might get a different view of the market from traders who import bikes from the US for instance.
Cost of ownership of old bikes can be high too, back n the day I spent money on crank grinding, magneto rebuilds, rebore etc.
Those kinds of services are probably expensive now?
You might get a different view of the market from traders who import bikes from the US for instance.
Cost of ownership of old bikes can be high too, back n the day I spent money on crank grinding, magneto rebuilds, rebore etc.
Those kinds of services are probably expensive now?
Same as I've said elsewhere though (and what some have mentioned above), it's due to nostalgia.
I started riding when I was 16 in 2007. Most of the leaky old crap from the 50's/60s (and tbh the 70s and 80s less leaky stuff) doesn't interest me in the slightest (with very, very few exceptions). The same reason the Classic Bike mags bore me senseless with their endless drivel about 1950s "grey porridge" bikes.
If I had the money/time now then I'd be after something like an Aprilia RS250 - a bike I always wanted when I was younger on an Aprila RS50 and RS125. It'll likely stay the "classic" bike I want if/when I have the time/money later in life.
Same theory with anything we buy/collect/lust after.
I started riding when I was 16 in 2007. Most of the leaky old crap from the 50's/60s (and tbh the 70s and 80s less leaky stuff) doesn't interest me in the slightest (with very, very few exceptions). The same reason the Classic Bike mags bore me senseless with their endless drivel about 1950s "grey porridge" bikes.
If I had the money/time now then I'd be after something like an Aprilia RS250 - a bike I always wanted when I was younger on an Aprila RS50 and RS125. It'll likely stay the "classic" bike I want if/when I have the time/money later in life.
Same theory with anything we buy/collect/lust after.
GameOverMan! said:
Mathewsons knowledge of 80s era onwards bikes is pretty limited/generalized IMHO from all the auctions and TV episodes I've seen over the years. I appreciate that they know the older bike market better, as that's what Derek has probably dealt with most. I do agree though, that like early cars, bikes do have declining audiences which translates into lower demand and lower prices.
However, If I could buy an RVF400 for £1.5K-£2K in that condition then I'd bite their hand off. I believe that it actually sold for around the £4.5K mark not so long ago which is still pretty cheap, with really good, original examples being over £6K-7K.
Matthewson’s market is based on volume through the door, which is fair enough but not necessarily representative of the market as a whole. I know literally hundreds of people with vintage and classic bikes but I don’t think I know anyone who’s bought a bike from them. I know they featured a prewar BSA the same as mine which they initially didn't bother taking it cos "nobody’s interested in this old stuff any more” but then once he'd done some research it appeared and the opening bid was £15,000. Can’t remember what it sold for but they’re a £20-25k bike every day of the week.However, If I could buy an RVF400 for £1.5K-£2K in that condition then I'd bite their hand off. I believe that it actually sold for around the £4.5K mark not so long ago which is still pretty cheap, with really good, original examples being over £6K-7K.
Edited by GameOverMan! on Thursday 8th May 10:48
More generally, the price of some old bikes has obviously dropped. I think it’s more that they’ve returned to about where they should be though. Prices were artificially high for a while, based mainly on boomers with a ton of cash and interest rates meaning that nobody’s savings were doing much so a lot of people thought “why not get that old bike”.
As an example, in 1993 my dad sold a Vincent Comet for £3800. With that money he paid £3000 for a Velocette Venom and £850 for a 1946 BSA B31.
Using the Bank of England inflation calculator £3800 in 1993 would be £8,056 now. Last Sunday this Vincent Comet sold at Bonhams for £8,050. He paid £3,000 for the Venom in 93 which according to the same calculator is £6,360 now. This Venom which is almost identical (same tls fron brake, big tank etc) sold at the end of last year for £5,750. So in reality, they’re about the same as they were nearly 40 years ago.
Due to the prices going up a lot more stuff arrived on the market, and now supply is outstripping demand for things like Goldstars and other bigger, harder to start machines. But anyone who thinks the market’s dropped clearly hasn’t tried to get an actual bargain. I’ve bid on two International Nortons in the last year – bidding what is the lower end of what they’ve been selling for but I won neither. My brother bid on another Vincent Comet this week (for a similar amount as above) and a prewar BSA v-twin last week for £10k over lower estimate and was outbid on both.
It's easy (but wrong) to say it’s just because nobody can remember these old bikes. At Bonhams almost all the higher value bikes were prewar and clearly nobody remembers those from that era and most of the people buying prewar stuff were younger than the average Fireblade owner's age I'm sure.
ETA I just did a little digging off the back of this thread. The bike I menioned above that they tried to sell (Youtube vid here) which is the same as one I have, and they said was worth "£7000-9000" and only got up to £17k on their auction is the same as this one, which Bonhams sold for just over £20k last year.
Edited by srob on Thursday 8th May 12:49
Marquezs Stabilisers said:
I'm 41, so nicely placed for a mid-life crisis classic purchase. One thing I ought to declare is that I already own a 2004 Impreza and a 2002 FireBlade, so already have the vehicles part covered.
But to a large extent, objectively many of the bikes are old and crap, and without an emotional pull - the real reason behind these purchases - nobody will touch them. Add in the general economic malaise and what are retirees after - 80s bikes probably, rather than 60s.
Will be interesting to see how 60's and 70's stuff does when the children are selling it.But to a large extent, objectively many of the bikes are old and crap, and without an emotional pull - the real reason behind these purchases - nobody will touch them. Add in the general economic malaise and what are retirees after - 80s bikes probably, rather than 60s.
Particularly the common stuff. Who's going to buy thousands of E types?
I'm 40's, my link to that stuff is watching Jay Leno or visiting the odd car show or Auto jumble and that's enough to get a fill.
I've only been into biking in the last 10 years, and will be 50 this year. I have never owned a kick start bike, and have no interest in owning one. With these sorts of older bikes, if you don't have the knowledge to tear it apart and fix it, then it becomes very expensive to keep running.
I was at a small classic bike show at the weekend; lots of British stuff from the 40s/50's/60's and 70s with a few pre-war bikes and later Japanese stuff. This was at the slat of the earth end of the scale, so apart from a couple of HRDs it was all affordable classics.
Very noticeably, each was accompanied by an old boy at least as old as their machine, and were happy to discuss their restoration battle and the constant fettling their old steeds required. I found myself wondering what would happen to the old machines once their owners had shuffled off. Many, I imagine, will return to the same sheds they were dug out of.
Very noticeably, each was accompanied by an old boy at least as old as their machine, and were happy to discuss their restoration battle and the constant fettling their old steeds required. I found myself wondering what would happen to the old machines once their owners had shuffled off. Many, I imagine, will return to the same sheds they were dug out of.
Bob_Defly said:
I've only been into biking in the last 10 years, and will be 50 this year. I have never owned a kick start bike, and have no interest in owning one. With these sorts of older bikes, if you don't have the knowledge to tear it apart and fix it, then it becomes very expensive to keep running.
We used to acquire that knowledge by trial and error.People these days start out on reliable bikes and don't learn to keep knackered engines working.
But then again, 40+ years ago I was happy to buy a 1960s bike which was 20 years old, I wasn't looking to get something 50 years old which would have been pre-war.
Ducati 916 came out over 30 years ago.
There is a lot of 'old' stuff out there, some of it is even 'classic'.
It's hard to compare 'like for like'.
If you want a 50s/60s/70s Harley it will cost you more than a newer one.
srob said:
GameOverMan! said:
Mathewsons knowledge of 80s era onwards bikes is pretty limited/generalized IMHO from all the auctions and TV episodes I've seen over the years. I appreciate that they know the older bike market better, as that's what Derek has probably dealt with most. I do agree though, that like early cars, bikes do have declining audiences which translates into lower demand and lower prices.
However, If I could buy an RVF400 for £1.5K-£2K in that condition then I'd bite their hand off. I believe that it actually sold for around the £4.5K mark not so long ago which is still pretty cheap, with really good, original examples being over £6K-7K.
Matthewson’s market is based on volume through the door, which is fair enough but not necessarily representative of the market as a whole. I know literally hundreds of people with vintage and classic bikes but I don’t think I know anyone who’s bought a bike from them. I know they featured a prewar BSA the same as mine which they initially didn't bother taking it cos "nobody’s interested in this old stuff any more” but then once he'd done some research it appeared and the opening bid was £15,000. Can’t remember what it sold for but they’re a £20-25k bike every day of the week.However, If I could buy an RVF400 for £1.5K-£2K in that condition then I'd bite their hand off. I believe that it actually sold for around the £4.5K mark not so long ago which is still pretty cheap, with really good, original examples being over £6K-7K.
Edited by GameOverMan! on Thursday 8th May 10:48
More generally, the price of some old bikes has obviously dropped. I think it’s more that they’ve returned to about where they should be though. Prices were artificially high for a while, based mainly on boomers with a ton of cash and interest rates meaning that nobody’s savings were doing much so a lot of people thought “why not get that old bike”.
As an example, in 1993 my dad sold a Vincent Comet for £3800. With that money he paid £3000 for a Velocette Venom and £850 for a 1946 BSA B31.
Using the Bank of England inflation calculator £3800 in 1993 would be £8,056 now. Last Sunday this Vincent Comet sold at Bonhams for £8,050. He paid £3,000 for the Venom in 93 which according to the same calculator is £6,360 now. This Venom which is almost identical (same tls fron brake, big tank etc) sold at the end of last year for £5,750. So in reality, they’re about the same as they were nearly 40 years ago.
Due to the prices going up a lot more stuff arrived on the market, and now supply is outstripping demand for things like Goldstars and other bigger, harder to start machines. But anyone who thinks the market’s dropped clearly hasn’t tried to get an actual bargain. I’ve bid on two International Nortons in the last year – bidding what is the lower end of what they’ve been selling for but I won neither. My brother bid on another Vincent Comet this week (for a similar amount as above) and a prewar BSA v-twin last week for £10k over lower estimate and was outbid on both.
It's easy (but wrong) to say it’s just because nobody can remember these old bikes. At Bonhams almost all the higher value bikes were prewar and clearly nobody remembers those from that era and most of the people buying prewar stuff were younger than the average Fireblade owner's age I'm sure.
ETA I just did a little digging off the back of this thread. The bike I menioned above that they tried to sell (Youtube vid here) which is the same as one I have, and they said was worth "£7000-9000" and only got up to £17k on their auction is the same as this one, which Bonhams sold for just over £20k last year.
Edited by srob on Thursday 8th May 12:49
As for that 1934 BSA, it's a real looker and would attract a lot more interest than most of the 1950s and 1960s stuff that Sooty and Dave are talking about in that video.
clive_candy said:
It's always the way that the bottom's fallen out of the market till we spot the bike we want!
As for that 1934 BSA, it's a real looker and would attract a lot more interest than most of the 1950s and 1960s stuff that Sooty and Dave are talking about in that video.
Mine’s an ex-military one too. I’ve managed to find period photos of bikes with the same registration letters and one or two numbers different at the end so clearly from the same batch but I’m yet to find a photo of my bike!As for that 1934 BSA, it's a real looker and would attract a lot more interest than most of the 1950s and 1960s stuff that Sooty and Dave are talking about in that video.
the cueball said:
KTMsm said:
The difference between a pile of scrap and a valuable collector's piece is nostalgia
So if it means nothing to you, it's worthless because they're not great bikes, if they were, we'd still be making them like that
Harsh but fair.. So if it means nothing to you, it's worthless because they're not great bikes, if they were, we'd still be making them like that
Using that logic there would be no antiques market; a Rembrandt would be worth less than a few strokes of Dulux as a way of covering a piece of wall and a 250GTO Ferrari would be worth less than a Nissan Duke because it hasn't got electric windows.
KTMsm's analogy treats everything without emotion; nostalgia isn't the only emotion
srob said:
clive_candy said:
It's always the way that the bottom's fallen out of the market till we spot the bike we want!
As for that 1934 BSA, it's a real looker and would attract a lot more interest than most of the 1950s and 1960s stuff that Sooty and Dave are talking about in that video.
Mine’s an ex-military one too. I’ve managed to find period photos of bikes with the same registration letters and one or two numbers different at the end so clearly from the same batch but I’m yet to find a photo of my bike!As for that 1934 BSA, it's a real looker and would attract a lot more interest than most of the 1950s and 1960s stuff that Sooty and Dave are talking about in that video.
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