Are we being pushed into a clutchless future?
Discussion
Apologies for the slightly rant-y, clickbait-y title but why are the manufacturers pushing e-clutch technology so hard?
Evidence as follows, Honda’s new CBR500R coming as standard with an e-clutch, the Kawasaki KLE500SE available with an e-clutch, Cheltenham Motorrad only having the (shockingly poor) auto box on their GS test bikes, KTMs 1290 AMT, and Yamaha’s e-clutch system available on things like the MT07.
Especially now we have excellent quickshifters (a few extra grams and some lines of code) I’m not sure what an automatic clutch adds other than weight and complexity.
Conspiracy head on, is this to prepare for ever-tightening emissions regulations or to ease us into electric motorcycles? Or is it that an increasingly elderly and infirm motorcycling population hasn’t got the hand strength for a clutch?
Genuinely baffled by where the demand for them is coming from. Old man shouts at clouds etc etc.
Evidence as follows, Honda’s new CBR500R coming as standard with an e-clutch, the Kawasaki KLE500SE available with an e-clutch, Cheltenham Motorrad only having the (shockingly poor) auto box on their GS test bikes, KTMs 1290 AMT, and Yamaha’s e-clutch system available on things like the MT07.
Especially now we have excellent quickshifters (a few extra grams and some lines of code) I’m not sure what an automatic clutch adds other than weight and complexity.
Conspiracy head on, is this to prepare for ever-tightening emissions regulations or to ease us into electric motorcycles? Or is it that an increasingly elderly and infirm motorcycling population hasn’t got the hand strength for a clutch?
Genuinely baffled by where the demand for them is coming from. Old man shouts at clouds etc etc.
What did you find so bad about the GS? I wouldn't buy one, seems to solve a problem I don't have (changing gear) whilst adding new ones (mostly timing of changes), but low speed control was very easy.
We're getting pushed into an EV future, we'll struggle to fuel bikes soon enough if prices keep rising and more car drivers switch to electric. I'm not sure why the manufacturers are jumping on autos so much but I suspect it's driven by more bike friendly markets in Europe and SE Asia
We're getting pushed into an EV future, we'll struggle to fuel bikes soon enough if prices keep rising and more car drivers switch to electric. I'm not sure why the manufacturers are jumping on autos so much but I suspect it's driven by more bike friendly markets in Europe and SE Asia
hiccy18 said:
What did you find so bad about the GS? I wouldn't buy one, seems to solve a problem I don't have (changing gear) whilst adding new ones (mostly timing of changes), but low speed control was very easy.
We're getting pushed into an EV future, we'll struggle to fuel bikes soon enough if prices keep rising and more car drivers switch to electric. I'm not sure why the manufacturers are jumping on autos so much but I suspect it's driven by more bike friendly markets in Europe and SE Asia
It would change gear whilst you were leaning over in a roundabout, and do the same mid corner. Like you said, timing of changes. Gear changes very pronounced and would unsettle the bike. First to second very clunky, no ability to ease the change gently like on a conventional gearbox. Continually over-geared, even in dynamic mode it would be trying to do 50mph in sixth gear. We're getting pushed into an EV future, we'll struggle to fuel bikes soon enough if prices keep rising and more car drivers switch to electric. I'm not sure why the manufacturers are jumping on autos so much but I suspect it's driven by more bike friendly markets in Europe and SE Asia
However I agree, at low speeds and for filtering it was good.
There are 2 systems being talked about here, e-clutch and automated transmissions.
I have been riding a DCT Africa Twin for 9 years now and it's been great. I think I would prefer a manual but for effortless touring it's been fantastic, I tend to use the paddles to change gear when loaded or pushing on but even in Sport auto mode I have no issues with the timing of gear changes.
E-clutch is different (if I got it right) in that you still need to change gear with the foot pedal, only the clutch part of the gearchange is automated. I guess it makes it easier to pull away like a DCT, but still gives you the option to feather the clutch if you need to. I haven't ridden one so I won't comment too much.
I have been riding a DCT Africa Twin for 9 years now and it's been great. I think I would prefer a manual but for effortless touring it's been fantastic, I tend to use the paddles to change gear when loaded or pushing on but even in Sport auto mode I have no issues with the timing of gear changes.
E-clutch is different (if I got it right) in that you still need to change gear with the foot pedal, only the clutch part of the gearchange is automated. I guess it makes it easier to pull away like a DCT, but still gives you the option to feather the clutch if you need to. I haven't ridden one so I won't comment too much.
I suspect there is a bunch of stuff coming together leading to a clutchless future and it's manufacturers responding to that rather than leading.
More and more people are only learning to drive automatic cars, possibly because they want electrics or hybrids, possibly because it's easier to learn.
Fitting a bike with an e-clutch (or full automatic) makes riding those bikes much easier for a generation that has never learnt to use a clutch and manual gears in a car or moving from an auto scooter.
A lot of bikers already love their quickshifters and view them as an essential, so we're already half way there as far as rider acclimatisation is concerned.
Automatic transmission will also feed into the next generation of bike design that uses hybrid and full electric power sources, although other than short hop commuters I suspect this is a decade or two away yet.
All very clever but I still prefer a manual system.
More and more people are only learning to drive automatic cars, possibly because they want electrics or hybrids, possibly because it's easier to learn.
Fitting a bike with an e-clutch (or full automatic) makes riding those bikes much easier for a generation that has never learnt to use a clutch and manual gears in a car or moving from an auto scooter.
A lot of bikers already love their quickshifters and view them as an essential, so we're already half way there as far as rider acclimatisation is concerned.
Automatic transmission will also feed into the next generation of bike design that uses hybrid and full electric power sources, although other than short hop commuters I suspect this is a decade or two away yet.
All very clever but I still prefer a manual system.
Alex9 said:
There are 2 systems being talked about here, e-clutch and automated transmissions.
I have been riding a DCT Africa Twin for 9 years now and it's been great. I think I would prefer a manual but for effortless touring it's been fantastic, I tend to use the paddles to change gear when loaded or pushing on but even in Sport auto mode I have no issues with the timing of gear changes.
E-clutch is different (if I got it right) in that you still need to change gear with the foot pedal, only the clutch part of the gearchange is automated. I guess it makes it easier to pull away like a DCT, but still gives you the option to feather the clutch if you need to. I haven't ridden one so I won't comment too much.
That's it in a nutshell. I have a CB650R E-clutch, and there is no full auto mode, there is no shifting for you. You need to pull gear with your left foot. I have been riding a DCT Africa Twin for 9 years now and it's been great. I think I would prefer a manual but for effortless touring it's been fantastic, I tend to use the paddles to change gear when loaded or pushing on but even in Sport auto mode I have no issues with the timing of gear changes.
E-clutch is different (if I got it right) in that you still need to change gear with the foot pedal, only the clutch part of the gearchange is automated. I guess it makes it easier to pull away like a DCT, but still gives you the option to feather the clutch if you need to. I haven't ridden one so I won't comment too much.
The idea behind it is to reduce stress on new/ older/ less confident riders in all environments so they can concentrate on lines and braking points at higher speeds, and at the other end filter and come to a stop under more control (it's impossible to stall it). Again as you say, for really slow moving situations, you can pull the clutch and use it like a traditional gearbox.
It wasn't my first choice, but after 100 miles, I stopped using the clutch lever altogether for a while and just treated it as a quickshifter. The bike goes back tomorrow, but I'd highly recommend it.
It's a great bit of kit - I believe the Gen 2 system on the 750's (with TBW) is even better as it rev matches on the downshift so is even smoother.
A few years ago I would have scoffed at the idea of an automatic motorbike, but now I love my quickshifter to the extent that I wouldn't buy a new bike without one. I only need the clutch for starting, stopping and low speed filtering. It's only another small step to fully automatic although I would always want to be able to change gears manually.
Assuming the future is electric, clutches are going to become redundant over the next few years. For now though, I'm perfectly happy with a clutch and quickshifter.
If you pass your bike test on an automatic bike, can you then ride a manual or is it like cars?
Assuming the future is electric, clutches are going to become redundant over the next few years. For now though, I'm perfectly happy with a clutch and quickshifter.
If you pass your bike test on an automatic bike, can you then ride a manual or is it like cars?
I'm old, I admit that, but being genX as they like to label us, I transitioned from analogue to digital seamlessly, have the knowledge of both sides and my opinion, for what it's worth, electric bikes will fail, 95% of a bikes appeal is it's engine, the noise, vibration and feel are just so important to how a bike feels, at least to our older generation.
If the new kids like electric then crack on, but silent speed isn't for me.
I wouldn't buy a bike with any electronics anyway, no traction control, no abs, no anti wheelie.
It's funny, but road bikes just don't need these things.
If the new kids like electric then crack on, but silent speed isn't for me.
I wouldn't buy a bike with any electronics anyway, no traction control, no abs, no anti wheelie.
It's funny, but road bikes just don't need these things.
I'd love an electric bike for commuting and IAM duties, not happening without some significant tech improvements. Agree that an engine is a large part of a bikes appeal though.
Also agree on OP's comments about the BMW auto, although I found sticking it in manual mode and treating it like a QS that worked on all gears rather than just the top three was okay. Pretty expensive and complex way of doing something Suzuki et al have got cracked. For as long as my left ankle works I'll stick to a manual gearbox tvm.
Also agree on OP's comments about the BMW auto, although I found sticking it in manual mode and treating it like a QS that worked on all gears rather than just the top three was okay. Pretty expensive and complex way of doing something Suzuki et al have got cracked. For as long as my left ankle works I'll stick to a manual gearbox tvm.
Who uses the clutch other than when you're in 1st gear????
Personally, I would never ride either of the technologies as I see clutch control as one of the defining skills related to riding a bike well. As for auto boxes, yes, their objective is to get to top gear asap and lower the rpm therefore reducing emissions... fair enough but I would never want a system that initiates unrequested changes..
Personally, I would never ride either of the technologies as I see clutch control as one of the defining skills related to riding a bike well. As for auto boxes, yes, their objective is to get to top gear asap and lower the rpm therefore reducing emissions... fair enough but I would never want a system that initiates unrequested changes..
dreamer75 said:
I prefer a manual, but with arthritis developing in my thumb joints potentially curtailing my riding future, the lack of clutch might be quite helpful at some point !
This, I am in the market for a new bike and a lot of the newer MT09s are the ‘auto’ transmission.I like QSs as well but I much prefer using the clutch, my foot and throttle to rode the bike, otherwise I may as well get a large scooter.
I suspect later in life I will be glad for them. I like the Honda DCT system as you can get a foot lever as well and use that instead of the ‘paddles’.
Obison said:
I'm old, I admit that, but being genX as they like to label us, I transitioned from analogue to digital seamlessly, have the knowledge of both sides and my opinion, for what it's worth, electric bikes will fail, 95% of a bikes appeal is it's engine, the noise, vibration and feel are just so important to how a bike feels, at least to our older generation.
If the new kids like electric then crack on, but silent speed isn't for me.
I wouldn't buy a bike with any electronics anyway, no traction control, no abs, no anti wheelie.
It's funny, but road bikes just don't need these things.
Traction control and anti wheelie is ok to live without although my 1000cc gets a bit lively at the front with wheelie off. My Gsxr doesn’t have ABS and I would prefer to have it on the front just for peace of mind….i have done a very high speed emergency stop and it pulled up just as quick as my mate did on his brand new panigale but at the end of the stop I did start to feather off as I was worried the front would tuck or the bike would endo…I expect it could have stopped a lot quicker but my brain would like abs.If the new kids like electric then crack on, but silent speed isn't for me.
I wouldn't buy a bike with any electronics anyway, no traction control, no abs, no anti wheelie.
It's funny, but road bikes just don't need these things.
Caddyshack said:
Traction control and anti wheelie is ok to live without although my 1000cc gets a bit lively at the front with wheelie off. My Gsxr doesn t have ABS and I would prefer to have it on the front just for peace of mind .i have done a very high speed emergency stop and it pulled up just as quick as my mate did on his brand new panigale but at the end of the stop I did start to feather off as I was worried the front would tuck or the bike would endo I expect it could have stopped a lot quicker but my brain would like abs.
But in the end you didn't need it, that type of scenario will either prove or make you a better rider, or if not, you will learn by your mistakes.We are human and have a massive scope for learning, electronics can take that away, I guess it depends on what you want, but I would rather every day was a school day.
P.s, glad you stopped ok!
Obison said:
Caddyshack said:
Traction control and anti wheelie is ok to live without although my 1000cc gets a bit lively at the front with wheelie off. My Gsxr doesn t have ABS and I would prefer to have it on the front just for peace of mind .i have done a very high speed emergency stop and it pulled up just as quick as my mate did on his brand new panigale but at the end of the stop I did start to feather off as I was worried the front would tuck or the bike would endo I expect it could have stopped a lot quicker but my brain would like abs.
But in the end you didn't need it, that type of scenario will either prove or make you a better rider, or if not, you will learn by your mistakes.We are human and have a massive scope for learning, electronics can take that away, I guess it depends on what you want, but I would rather every day was a school day.
P.s, glad you stopped ok!
Obison said:
We are human and have a massive scope for learning, electronics can take that away, I guess it depends on what you want, but I would rather every day was a school day.
Electronics don't take away the ability to learn, it just changes the lesson to a flashing light on the dash instead of ending up on your arse.Marquezs Stabilisers said:
It's for emissions, same as cars. It defaults to the highest gear and lowest revs possible so as to get the emissions down.
Is this actually true? Auto boxes on cars usually (used to?) have lower MPG than manuals because of the power sap of the box itself. Look at the bikes coming with auto's or e-clutches and I suspect it's more simply because for commuters, new riders, etc they simply prefer an auto instead of dancing on the gearshift.
2ndclasscitizen said:
Obison said:
We are human and have a massive scope for learning, electronics can take that away, I guess it depends on what you want, but I would rather every day was a school day.
Electronics don't take away the ability to learn, it just changes the lesson to a flashing light on the dash instead of ending up on your arse.Condi said:
Marquezs Stabilisers said:
It's for emissions, same as cars. It defaults to the highest gear and lowest revs possible so as to get the emissions down.
Is this actually true? Auto boxes on cars usually (used to?) have lower MPG than manuals because of the power sap of the box itself. Look at the bikes coming with auto's or e-clutches and I suspect it's more simply because for commuters, new riders, etc they simply prefer an auto instead of dancing on the gearshift.
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