Discussion
Without wishing to start a 'nail the newbie numpty twonk to a tree for asking a stupid question' thread, what is the real life diference in riding a 600 to a 750 to a 1000cc bike? I know the bigger one is obviously much fater than the smaller one, but is that kind of it?
Is it a case of open the throttle on a 600, and you might hang on, but on a litre, you'll fly off the back, wheelie, wheelspin etc?
Is it a case of the 1000 is no more DIFFICULT to ride than a 600, BUT that you are more likely to be going quicker between point a & b than on a 600 etc.
Basically HOW am I going to be more likely to have an accident on a 1000/750 than a 600?
Genuine question from a new start, so sensible constructive replys please?
Cheers,
virgil.
Is it a case of open the throttle on a 600, and you might hang on, but on a litre, you'll fly off the back, wheelie, wheelspin etc?
Is it a case of the 1000 is no more DIFFICULT to ride than a 600, BUT that you are more likely to be going quicker between point a & b than on a 600 etc.
Basically HOW am I going to be more likely to have an accident on a 1000/750 than a 600?
Genuine question from a new start, so sensible constructive replys please?
Cheers,
virgil.
You've pretty much got it. In a situation where there's straight line acceleration involved a 1000 will bury a 600 - just on engine size you're going to have ~2/3 on top of a 600s torque. Whenever a comparison is made on a circuit though, most folks are quicker on a 600 than a thou' because they can get on the throttle earlier, since you don't need to be as cautious of spinning up the rear, hoisting the front and so on. If you're not on maximum attack a thou' is going to be a more effortless ride, since there's less need to stir the gearbox to make decent progress.
Steve.
Steve.
Edited by Steve_T on Wednesday 1st November 17:24
I've just completed my first year of riding on a GSX-R600 K3. At first it was absolutely terrifying (and its not like I've come from slow cars), the acceleration was, and I suppose still is in relative terms, brutal. I've also been fortunate enough to have a go on a GSX-R1000 and GSX-R750. The added torque of the 750 and, more so, the 1000 make them a different ride altogether. The 600 is essentially torque-free so nailing the throttle in pretty much any gear would launch you up the road with the front wheel still on the ground. The 750/1000 are a bit different. The added torque means you have to be a little more careful with what you do with your right wrist.
I know that in my first year of riding the 12,000 miles I did on road and track, I'm fairly sure that with added torque I may have found myself in situations a little out of my control. I know now that had I gone for the 750 first of all, it'd have probably ended in tears. I also think that your first year of riding is your first year of actually learning to ride.
Having said that, my brand-spanking-new GSX-R750 is turning up next week! I'm still not entirely convinced I'm ready for the additional grunt but having had the 600 to learn to ride on for a year (which is nothing, really), I feel I'm aware enough of roads and situations which allow my brain to concentrate more on what the bike is doing and how it's reacting rather than what everyone else is doing.
First year gone. 12,000 miles. Road and track. No accidents. Either I've been very lucky or I'm a fast learner.
You also have to bear in mind that a modern 600 will get to 100mph in the same time as a McLaren F1.
I know that in my first year of riding the 12,000 miles I did on road and track, I'm fairly sure that with added torque I may have found myself in situations a little out of my control. I know now that had I gone for the 750 first of all, it'd have probably ended in tears. I also think that your first year of riding is your first year of actually learning to ride.
Having said that, my brand-spanking-new GSX-R750 is turning up next week! I'm still not entirely convinced I'm ready for the additional grunt but having had the 600 to learn to ride on for a year (which is nothing, really), I feel I'm aware enough of roads and situations which allow my brain to concentrate more on what the bike is doing and how it's reacting rather than what everyone else is doing.
First year gone. 12,000 miles. Road and track. No accidents. Either I've been very lucky or I'm a fast learner.
You also have to bear in mind that a modern 600 will get to 100mph in the same time as a McLaren F1.
Edited by Rawwr on Wednesday 1st November 17:36
If we're talking road riding a sports 600 is more than quick enough to get you into serious trouble. On the larger CC bikes you can make the same level of rapid progress as the 600 by riding really lazily and using the engines torque.
If you thrash the bigger CC bikes you'd better have the skill/brain to cope with warp speed. You really have to watch large throttle openings carefully!
If you thrash the bigger CC bikes you'd better have the skill/brain to cope with warp speed. You really have to watch large throttle openings carefully!
How is a litre bike more dangerous? - simply because you are probably not prepared for what it can do. You need to build experience to be able use the controls with the appropriate sensitivity. You may not react until too late when things get out of hand, if you react at all, because you don't know the signs. If you do react, you may do so incorrectly ... and the list goes on. Bikes are wierd things in some ways, a lot of what you should do is not what your instinctive reaction will be.
Steve.
Steve.
Just from a fellow newbie's point of view, I don't care what cars you've driven before, when you wind a decent 600 up it's FAST! Sure, I have to work the box a bit more than I might really like, but when I want it there is ample oomph in a straight line, and it's waaaay better in the corners than me. I really don't need a litre bike right now.
I went for a litre bike for the extra torque. One big reason for the bike was trips to Europe and I wanted the lazier bike to do it with. I've only done 9000 miles since passing my test but probably half of that has been on mainland Europe. It's nice to be fully loaded and just open it up in top gear and have the extra go.
180 horses on a gixxer1000 is different from the 127ish on my triple.
That and my knees aren't up to the position of a sportsbike.
180 horses on a gixxer1000 is different from the 127ish on my triple.
That and my knees aren't up to the position of a sportsbike.
Yep, it was just too fast!! Should have got a blue one to start off withIt all depends on what you're looking for.
Speed, in control, is very exhilarating.
The sensation of speed is what you're really after.
My Fireblade is a real Superbike, no question. It has all the power anyone could want and vastly more than anyone could need.
BUT:
You sit in a cocoon of still air, insulated from much of the sensation of speed.
My lad has a Hornet 600. On warm days it's nice to travel at 90mph on roads that I'd be doing 130mph with the Blade. You can't, on the Hornet, solely because of the wind-blast.
In theory, the Hornet should do about 130mph but you'd feel like a sail in the wind.
So, the Hornet at 70mph feels like it's doing 70mph.
The Blade at 130mph feels like it's doing 70mph.
The acceleration on both is enough to blow pretty much any vehicle, other than bikes, far far away from you.
Horses for courses?
Speed, in control, is very exhilarating.
The sensation of speed is what you're really after.
My Fireblade is a real Superbike, no question. It has all the power anyone could want and vastly more than anyone could need.
BUT:
You sit in a cocoon of still air, insulated from much of the sensation of speed.
My lad has a Hornet 600. On warm days it's nice to travel at 90mph on roads that I'd be doing 130mph with the Blade. You can't, on the Hornet, solely because of the wind-blast.
In theory, the Hornet should do about 130mph but you'd feel like a sail in the wind.
So, the Hornet at 70mph feels like it's doing 70mph.
The Blade at 130mph feels like it's doing 70mph.
The acceleration on both is enough to blow pretty much any vehicle, other than bikes, far far away from you.
Horses for courses?
They're all fast but nothing will blow your socks of in a straight line like a modern thousand sports bike. I don't really get my kicks from straight line performance - IMO the fun is in the twists and turns but I'm still amazed when I hit my local A47 from standstill to crazy speeds in the blink of an eye...
This is just my opinion but a 600 would make the best track bike because it's a great feeling to thrash around a track on a light weight machine. I hired an R6 cup for Snetterton earlier this year - very slow compared to my GSXR but great for flicking around and thrashing! I noticed the difference though - when riding my GSXR last time at Snetterton, it felt heavy...
If money was no object, I'd take a light weight 600 kitted out for the track and a thousand for the road... Not sure where a 750 would fit as I havn't tried one...
I NEED MORE MONEY!
This is just my opinion but a 600 would make the best track bike because it's a great feeling to thrash around a track on a light weight machine. I hired an R6 cup for Snetterton earlier this year - very slow compared to my GSXR but great for flicking around and thrashing! I noticed the difference though - when riding my GSXR last time at Snetterton, it felt heavy...
If money was no object, I'd take a light weight 600 kitted out for the track and a thousand for the road... Not sure where a 750 would fit as I havn't tried one...
I NEED MORE MONEY!
hello
after three years on a zxr400 went to a honda sp-1 (1000)
big difference is torque!
On the 400 I simply didn't worry about the back wheel doing anything, I did one track day and it was really easy! I don't think I go any quicker on the 1000, sometimes the rear wheel spins in a straight line, I never whack the throttle open when leant over, as it is freaking obvious that the bike will slide.
As long as you have some idea of proper riding, you won't have a problem. You need to be aware of your speed and fight your natural instincts, which will generally make you do the wrong thing on a bike. Read "twist of the wrist" by Keith Code. I did, it works. I shouted to myself his rules when riding(the zxr400 was LOUD), until they stuck!
Other than that enjoy!
Shane
after three years on a zxr400 went to a honda sp-1 (1000)
big difference is torque!
On the 400 I simply didn't worry about the back wheel doing anything, I did one track day and it was really easy! I don't think I go any quicker on the 1000, sometimes the rear wheel spins in a straight line, I never whack the throttle open when leant over, as it is freaking obvious that the bike will slide.
As long as you have some idea of proper riding, you won't have a problem. You need to be aware of your speed and fight your natural instincts, which will generally make you do the wrong thing on a bike. Read "twist of the wrist" by Keith Code. I did, it works. I shouted to myself his rules when riding(the zxr400 was LOUD), until they stuck!
Other than that enjoy!
Shane
kawasicki said:
big difference is torque!
This is so true!
As has been said, generally the bigger the engine, the faster the bike will go (when comparing similar models) in a straight line. However, as you rarely get to use all of any sports bikes top end performance then both on the road and on the track there will be little difference in A to B or lap times between a reasonably well ridden 600 and a reasonably well ridden 1000.
The difference is that the 1000 will provide the performance in a much more relaxed fashion due to the torque. With the 600, you will have to work it pretty hard even to make reasonable progress where the 100 will provide the same sort of performance with much less effort. This does make travelling at a given speed either
a) More relaxed on the 1000 or
b) More exciting on the 600
You choose the description that suits you riding requirements!
The 600 will generally feel lighter and more nimble and will generally corner slightly quicker than an equivalent but the 1000.
Both the 600 and the 1000 will “bite” if you treat them badly with the 1000 being more sensitive to throttle position. Whack the throttle open mid bend on the 1000 and it may spin up and spit you off 2 in 10 times, but do the same on the 600 and it will spin up and spit you off 1 in 10 times. The answer is not to go for the 600 because you are less likely to get spat off but to not whack the throttle open mid bend regardless of the bike!
Many ‘newbies’ I talk to have the impression that riding a 1000 must be like riding a wild fire breathing dragon that’s really pissed off with you and only those with balls of steel could ever manage to tame it. This is not the case. The slight increase in physical size/weight aside, I think that riding a 1000 is actually easier than riding a 600 due to the increased torque. It’s only if you want to ride ‘flat out’ will the 600 be easier than the 1000
I’ve not tried any of the modern 750s thus can’t pass comment but I would imagine that they are simply in the middle, offering a bit more torque than a 600 while being slightly more nimble than a 1000.
black-k1 said:
Many ‘newbies’ I talk to have the impression that riding a 1000 must be like riding a wild fire breathing dragon that’s really pissed off with you and only those with balls of steel could ever manage to tame it. This is not the case.
Very interesting to hear!
The reason us newbies think a thou' is like a fire breathing dragon, is 'cause that's what we're told by more experienced bike riders!
Interesting to hear some comments from the other side of the "by a thou' and you will kill your self very quickly" fence.
I'm sure that there are a lot that do - getting too heroic beyond their skill level - but I was wondering if, ridden sensibly and with a great deal of respect, you could step straight onto a thou' and spend a great deal of time enjoying it, gradually building up to the 'full monty' blasts.
I love big engine torquey cars, as opposed to the small screamer high BHP, low torque ones and would like to go down that route for a bike, but just about EVERYONE says no...you will die.
Also seen that some of the new bikes (just Suzuki Gixer?) have a power setting switch to drop the power for poor weather, which could presumably be relabeled 'Newbie Numpty Switch'?
Virgil.
You can hurt yourself on any size machine, I had this comprehensively demonstrated to me by a chap on a scooter this morning. All I'd say is there are other choices than super sports litre bikes to give you a nice torquey delivery. Do you really need a sports bike? You could look at a BMW boxer twin, a Honda CBR1000F (if you can get past the looks), an old Fazer thou or perhaps a v-twin of some kind. Then there's the naked muscle bikes (1200-1400cc giving torque without the screaming top end of a sports bike), or even perhaps the New Triumph Tiger or Speed Triple. There's loads of choice, get out there, try some bikes and make your own mind up.
Steve.
Steve.
virgil said:
black-k1 said:
Many ‘newbies’ I talk to have the impression that riding a 1000 must be like riding a wild fire breathing dragon that’s really pissed off with you and only those with balls of steel could ever manage to tame it. This is not the case.
Very interesting to hear!
The reason us newbies think a thou' is like a fire breathing dragon, is 'cause that's what we're told by more experienced bike riders!
Interesting to hear some comments from the other side of the "by a thou' and you will kill your self very quickly" fence.
I'm sure that there are a lot that do - getting too heroic beyond their skill level - but I was wondering if, ridden sensibly and with a great deal of respect, you could step straight onto a thou' and spend a great deal of time enjoying it, gradually building up to the 'full monty' blasts.
I love big engine torquey cars, as opposed to the small screamer high BHP, low torque ones and would like to go down that route for a bike, but just about EVERYONE says no...you will die.
Also seen that some of the new bikes (just Suzuki Gixer?) have a power setting switch to drop the power for poor weather, which could presumably be relabeled 'Newbie Numpty Switch'?
Virgil.
The issue is not whether or not the 'Newbie' has the ability to ride a thou but what the 'newbie' does when you get in to trouble. A thou is heavier than your average 600 which means for a 'newbie' there is also a weight factor involved when trying to get out of difficulty in a corner let alone the power. I have seen many 'nwebies' buy a thou as soon as they have finished their Direct Access only to wonder why their mate who passed his test at the time is developing faster as a rider. It's our in built automatic reactions that will hurt not the fact you don't have the skills ti ride it. Anybody can ride a bike but having the skills to be able to keep you out of trouble is a different story. Just my 2 pence worth!!
I can kind of understand the "torquey" vs, "revvy" power delivery arguements, but I don't really see the mileage in telling an inexperienced rider that it's ok to jump on a litre sports bike. Something like a big old Guzz or a flat twin BM, fair play. But a GSXR thou?
All this riding gently and respectfully nonsense is precisely that: nonsense. The first things any new rider is going to do is twist the throttle open "just to see" changing up swiftly when things go blurry and they think "Crikey" or similar...
They're then gonna continue doing this until such time that they are familiar enough and reasonably comfortable with wacking the throttle open: big deal, they still can't handle the corners. And it's their reactions when that corner comes up a little too quickly that is going to kill them: "the bike may have handled the corner at that speed, but the rider couldn't".
Honestly Virgil, I think your underestimating what you're thinking about here: in my opinion the best machine for a new rider is the slowest bike that will give you enough pleasure to keep you occupied for a while. If that is really a GSXR thou you're either Steve Austin, or you'll very quickly resemble him.... if you're lucky.
Of course, this is just my 2p and I say it in the full knowledge that my "starter steed" would easily show an old Laverda Jota a clean pair of heels and would probably keep up with a GPz900 so I may be talking bollox.
All this riding gently and respectfully nonsense is precisely that: nonsense. The first things any new rider is going to do is twist the throttle open "just to see" changing up swiftly when things go blurry and they think "Crikey" or similar...
They're then gonna continue doing this until such time that they are familiar enough and reasonably comfortable with wacking the throttle open: big deal, they still can't handle the corners. And it's their reactions when that corner comes up a little too quickly that is going to kill them: "the bike may have handled the corner at that speed, but the rider couldn't".
Honestly Virgil, I think your underestimating what you're thinking about here: in my opinion the best machine for a new rider is the slowest bike that will give you enough pleasure to keep you occupied for a while. If that is really a GSXR thou you're either Steve Austin, or you'll very quickly resemble him.... if you're lucky.
Of course, this is just my 2p and I say it in the full knowledge that my "starter steed" would easily show an old Laverda Jota a clean pair of heels and would probably keep up with a GPz900 so I may be talking bollox.
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