My first "OH Sh**" moment
Discussion
while on the way to work managed to get the back end going sideways. not fun but got my adrenaline going. must have hit a patch of diesel or braked to hard and thought "shìt" use the back brake i'm not stopping and then applyed the rear brake. the back came out and I almost power slid the rear end for a second. did not come off but made me think twice.
Don't want to do that again
Don't want to do that again
Moments like that do make the heart beat a little faster! 
Glad to hear your still in one piece and remained the right way up.
One thing that worries me though is your statement
When braking on the road you should ALWAYS be using your back brake and with conditions as they are at this time of year your back brake should be supplying a substantial amount of the stopping force. The back brake should definitely not be ‘an afterthought’.
Glad to hear your still in one piece and remained the right way up. One thing that worries me though is your statement
remal said:
... braked to hard and thought "shìt" use the back brake i'm not stopping.
When braking on the road you should ALWAYS be using your back brake and with conditions as they are at this time of year your back brake should be supplying a substantial amount of the stopping force. The back brake should definitely not be ‘an afterthought’.
Edited by black-k1 on Friday 8th December 08:40
black-k1 said:
Moments like that do make the heart beat a little faster! Glad to hear your still in one piece and remained the right way up.
One thing that worries me though is your statement
When braking on the road you should ALWAYS be using your back brake and with conditions as they are at this time of year your back brake should be supplying a substantial amount of the stopping force. The back brake should definitely not be ‘an afterthought’.
Glad to hear your still in one piece and remained the right way up. One thing that worries me though is your statement
remal said:
... braked to hard and thought "shìt" use the back brake i'm not stopping.
When braking on the road you should ALWAYS be using your back brake and with conditions as they are at this time of year your back brake should be supplying a substantial amount of the stopping force. The back brake should definitely not be ‘an afterthought’.
Edited by black-k1 on Friday 8th December 08:40
I know I know. just got to used to using the front too much. but in my defence when I applyed the rear thats when the back end kicked out
I have never used the back brake on a bike (other than a trials or MX bike). In ALL braking cases, the weight is shifted forwards, therefore unloading the rear tyre. Personally, I feel a lot safer with a slight front wheel skid that you can feel and modulate, than with a rear wheel skid which can come round very quickly on you.
Be very careful using a lot of rear brake in crap conditions. If you have ABS or linked brakes, that's a different matter.
Be very careful using a lot of rear brake in crap conditions. If you have ABS or linked brakes, that's a different matter.
I don`t mind the back brake locking up..
I had a good play on a back tyre that was on the way out and learned loads...play with the steering a touch to see how it throws the rear left & right....also don`t panic, you have time before it does anything drastic although it`s best to make sure it`s kinda in line before releasing the rear brake or it will buck on the way back in.....pull the clutch in once it locks or it will stall then bump start when the wheel turns again...it`s a front end lock up that scares me.
I had a good play on a back tyre that was on the way out and learned loads...play with the steering a touch to see how it throws the rear left & right....also don`t panic, you have time before it does anything drastic although it`s best to make sure it`s kinda in line before releasing the rear brake or it will buck on the way back in.....pull the clutch in once it locks or it will stall then bump start when the wheel turns again...it`s a front end lock up that scares me. Edited by F.M on Friday 8th December 10:31
fergus said:
I have never used the back brake on a bike (other than a trials or MX bike). In ALL braking cases, the weight is shifted forwards, therefore unloading the rear tyre. Personally, I feel a lot safer with a slight front wheel skid that you can feel and modulate, than with a rear wheel skid which can come round very quickly on you.
Be very careful using a lot of rear brake in crap conditions. If you have ABS or linked brakes, that's a different matter.
Be very careful using a lot of rear brake in crap conditions. If you have ABS or linked brakes, that's a different matter.
Sorry Fergus, I think your technique is wrong for maximum braking/safety/control in road conditions. While the weight does move forward when braking, unless you are doing stoppies all the time, there will still be weight on the rear. This can be used to both help reduce the speed of the bike and provide better balance/control by causing the rear end to ‘squat’ at the same time as the front is diving.
While there is a chance the rear will lock up, a rear end lock up is easier to control than a front end lock up, and is generally ‘survivable’ even if there is a degree of lean on the bike. Locking the front up while even slightly leaning the bike and you’re almost definitely looking at a front end wash out.
Linked brakes were developed specifically because too many riders were ignoring the use of the back brake and thus loosing out on both control and stopping ability.
As I’ve said before when I used to instruct, I would do a demonstration of braking using rear only, front only then both back and front together. Each run would be done at the same speed (about 20mph) and I would brake from a set point as hard as I could while avoiding lock-up. I would then get a pupil to place a cone where my front wheel came to a stop. Consistently, the front only distance was about half the rear only distance, but the front and rear brakes together distance was almost half the front only distance! Give it a go yourself some time and see if there is also a difference for you.
Edited by black-k1 on Friday 8th December 10:33
black-k1 said:
When braking on the road you should ALWAYS be using your back brake and with conditions as they are at this time of year your back brake should be supplying a substantial amount of the stopping force. The back brake should definitely not be ‘an afterthought’.
I can't agree with this I'm afraid. The inherent nature of a bike when braking hard is for it to transfer weight to the front of the bike and therefore unload the rear. It is obviously a different story if you have a linked brake system or an anti dive type system like on some BMW's. I rarely use the rear brake and only very occasionally in very wet conditions. I do about 1,400 miles a month all year round on my bike and I can count on one hand the times I have used the rear brake.
What Remal did was probably panic a little when he hit the crap on the road and went for both brakes thus unsettling the bike.
Edited by Andy Oh on Friday 8th December 10:37
Andy Oh said:
black-k1 said:
When braking on the road you should ALWAYS be using your back brake and with conditions as they are at this time of year your back brake should be supplying a substantial amount of the stopping force. The back brake should definitely not be ‘an afterthought’.
I can't agree with this I'm afraid. The inherent nature of a bike when braking hard is for it to transfer weight to the front of the bike and therefore unload the rear. It is obviously a different story if you have a linked brake system or an anti dive type system like on some BMW's. I rarely use the rear brake and only very occasionally in very wet conditions. I do about 1,400 miles a month all year round on my bike and I can count on one hand the times I have used the rear brake.
Try the brake test I describe above and let us know how you get on.
black-k1 said:
at this time of year your back brake should be supplying a substantial amount of the stopping force.
Have you ridden a Ducati? - my back brake is hardly able to supply a 'substantial amount' of any force, in fact it's next to useless - goes from bu66er-all to full lock-up with not much in between and even on full lock-up it hardly slows the bike down. It is useful for holding the wheel whilst removing the wheelnut though.
catso said:
black-k1 said:
at this time of year your back brake should be supplying a substantial amount of the stopping force.
Have you ridden a Ducati? - my back brake is hardly able to supply a 'substantial amount' of any force, in fact it's next to useless - goes from bu66er-all to full lock-up with not much in between and even on full lock-up it hardly slows the bike down. It is useful for holding the wheel whilst removing the wheelnut though.
But on a V-twin shutting the throttle is like throwing out an anchor so who needs any brakes!
I definitely use more back brake in slippery conditions, balances and settles the bike a lot more
a sliding rear is nothing to worry about and you can easily be off and on it again quickly before it would cause a prob. a sliding front on the other hand, you can be on the deck before you know
a sliding rear is nothing to worry about and you can easily be off and on it again quickly before it would cause a prob. a sliding front on the other hand, you can be on the deck before you know
catso said:
black-k1 said:
at this time of year your back brake should be supplying a substantial amount of the stopping force.
Have you ridden a Ducati? - my back brake is hardly able to supply a 'substantial amount' of any force, in fact it's next to useless - goes from bu66er-all to full lock-up with not much in between and even on full lock-up it hardly slows the bike down. It is useful for holding the wheel whilst removing the wheelnut though.
agreed!!
if you are desperate and on a steep hill you might just be able to get anough pressure to hold it but generally not worth the effort
Have only recently started using the back brake on the KTM and it's nice when you want to scrub a little bit of speed and settle the back end, but I really only use it at slow speed or if I am already leaning slightly or dodgy surface conditions where i wouldn't want to front brake.
Steve_T said:
Is it the same Brembo system as used on Aprilia's? There's some good info about what's necessary to properly bleed the system on the AF1 forum which might help.
Steve.
Steve.
Bleeding can be a bit of a nuisance (need to take the caliper off to do it properly) but the performance I described is when properly bled........
When having MOT test the rear brake can only just stop the roller but if there's any air in the system it won't pass, unfortunately they also tend to get air in the system on a regular basis and I have it on good authority that 'they all do that sir'.
Front brakes are good though.
On a crosser the back brake is a useful tool. For instance, dragging the rear brake effectively loads up the rear suspension a little. A good application would be whoop sections or stuttery bumps where the bike would normally jack rabbit or pogo about. Try a little back brake and just attack the whoops as fast as you dare, and you'll be surprised how much the bike just skips across with the limited travel which the brake enduces. If you watch seasoned Supercrossers, they'll even trim the bike in midair with a little back brake to drop the nose of the bike, equally a blip of throttle will pick up the front end if things go too far.
Anyway, I digress, but the point is that as I'm racking up the miles as a relative newcomer to road riding, I'm finding that all these little tricks can be as useful on the road if things get out of shape.
I'd highly recommend an off-road course and a trail bike as a winter steed. They'll hone your bike handling skills no end...
Anyway, I digress, but the point is that as I'm racking up the miles as a relative newcomer to road riding, I'm finding that all these little tricks can be as useful on the road if things get out of shape.
I'd highly recommend an off-road course and a trail bike as a winter steed. They'll hone your bike handling skills no end...
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