Bikes Limits - how do you find them?
Discussion
Been thinking of this a fair bit recently and after reading a review of some 600s in a mag last night I wondered what some of the quicker guys on here think about this:
Riders often talk about how much faster they could take a corner on one bike as opposed to another yet what is this based on? Is it just confidence in the grip or do they actually take the bike above and beyond this (sliding etc) to find the limit?
The reason I ask is that it's dead easy to find the limits in a car but to find them (and recover it) and continue riding must take some skill if pushing hard.
I've lost the back under power a fair few times on bikes before but thats nothing like being at full lean and the having the back sliding.
SO how do you find the limits without coming off?
Riders often talk about how much faster they could take a corner on one bike as opposed to another yet what is this based on? Is it just confidence in the grip or do they actually take the bike above and beyond this (sliding etc) to find the limit?
The reason I ask is that it's dead easy to find the limits in a car but to find them (and recover it) and continue riding must take some skill if pushing hard.
I've lost the back under power a fair few times on bikes before but thats nothing like being at full lean and the having the back sliding.
SO how do you find the limits without coming off?
Carrera2 said:
SO how do you find the limits without coming off?
Nearlly come off 
The only way to find limits is to do just that, find them. You may well reach the limit of the rider before the bike unless you're very talented and perceptive.
The other issue that I've found on several bikes is ground clearance. I've been on a few non-superbikes where I've had the pegs and exhaust down before running out of tyre grip.
I'm no bike racer so tend not to find the limits on bikes, but in my car I'll generally spin a few times on new tracks before finding the optimum pace, so assume it's the same on a bike if you really want the true limit, so it could be a very painfull learning curve.
m3psm said:
but in my car I'll generally spin a few times on new tracks before finding the optimum pace, so assume it's the same on a bike if you really want the true limit, so it could be a very painfull learning curve.
That's exactly what I'm not saying though. 
You don't see people flying off the track all the time as they discover the limits of a bike.It's different to a car.
I suspect that's because they don't find the absolute limit. I imagine the top riders fell off a lot on their way up but now know the warning signs and do thousands of miles of testing chasing every tenth of a second so edge towards the limits slowly. On a track day you don't get that luxury and only rarely get more than a dozen good clear laps in.
I think the answer for normal riders is to be meticulous on various corner types and push slightly harder each time until you feel you're on the limit or you could push until the bike gives you some negative feedback with a step out if you're really keen.
There is no equation or simple rule though because of the variables of rider style, tyres, suspension, track, temperature etc, etc.
I think the answer for normal riders is to be meticulous on various corner types and push slightly harder each time until you feel you're on the limit or you could push until the bike gives you some negative feedback with a step out if you're really keen.
There is no equation or simple rule though because of the variables of rider style, tyres, suspension, track, temperature etc, etc.
As he says, i would guess that the vast majority of riders reach their own potential far before reaching the limits of the bike, even a reasonably average performing bike. On the road at least.
Even on the track it's not uncommon for someone to ride a newer, supposedly much quicker bike, and still run the same lap times as they did before. They've reached their own limits, not the bikes.
You have to have an incredible amount of talent and experience to play around in the realms on the absolute limit of grip. (Big balls helps too) The guys you see on TV every sunday make it look easy and natural, very very different for us lesser mortals.
Even on the track it's not uncommon for someone to ride a newer, supposedly much quicker bike, and still run the same lap times as they did before. They've reached their own limits, not the bikes.
You have to have an incredible amount of talent and experience to play around in the realms on the absolute limit of grip. (Big balls helps too) The guys you see on TV every sunday make it look easy and natural, very very different for us lesser mortals.
Any opf our Fast group riders here care to shed some experienced opinion on this.
No disrepect guys but your views are much the same as mine and come largely from common sense - I wanted an insight from some of the blokes who do take the bikes to the limits and get an idea of what they're looking for.
No disrepect guys but your views are much the same as mine and come largely from common sense - I wanted an insight from some of the blokes who do take the bikes to the limits and get an idea of what they're looking for.
My experience of cars and bikes is that finding the limits is very similar, the difference is in the consequences. To find the limit of the car (and I assume we're really talking about braking and cornering) you push until you lose traction - locking the wheels under braking or losing the front or rear in a corner. The skill is to then manage this and next time get as close to this limit as possible without crossing it, since sideways through a corner is generally not the fastest way (although certainly the most fun!).
You find the limits on a bike in much the same way, the difference being that if you can't manage the slide on a bike you are likely to fall off rather than maybe spinning or just flat-spotting your tyres (car). I was pushing myself and my 996 last summer on track, leaning further and further in the corners. I was ok until the peg went down and on the next lap the front slid a bit - bingo! - the limit! I then used the pegs and toe to give me an idea of how close I was to the limit for the rest of the day. The same would be true for getting on the gas coming out of a corner, but sadly my balls aren't big enough to let me spin up the rear when doing this! However, pushing until the rear slips a little (hopefully without highsiding!) will give you an idea of where the limit is coming out of a corner.
Don't know if this helps - I feel as if I've just been rambling here . . .
The comment about pushing until you fall off then backing off a little after that makes a lot of sense - it's just a bit too painful/expensive for most of us to try on two wheels!
You find the limits on a bike in much the same way, the difference being that if you can't manage the slide on a bike you are likely to fall off rather than maybe spinning or just flat-spotting your tyres (car). I was pushing myself and my 996 last summer on track, leaning further and further in the corners. I was ok until the peg went down and on the next lap the front slid a bit - bingo! - the limit! I then used the pegs and toe to give me an idea of how close I was to the limit for the rest of the day. The same would be true for getting on the gas coming out of a corner, but sadly my balls aren't big enough to let me spin up the rear when doing this! However, pushing until the rear slips a little (hopefully without highsiding!) will give you an idea of where the limit is coming out of a corner.
Don't know if this helps - I feel as if I've just been rambling here . . .
The comment about pushing until you fall off then backing off a little after that makes a lot of sense - it's just a bit too painful/expensive for most of us to try on two wheels!
For me...hard to say but...
The front..when you move the handlebars turning the bike into a corner...they have a weight to it..a resistance as the rest of the bike is under control of the front wheel...when you approach the limit of the tyres grip..the feel from the handlebars gets easier and lighter...because the tyre is also slightly slipping across the tarmac..and so for me ,the limit is when the rest of the machine is no longer `connected` with the inputs of the steering angle..
The back...on pronlonged track days it can be suprising just how much grip disappears when a road tyre starts overheating...worth playing with gently just what happens when you find the back isn`t hooking up...
The front..when you move the handlebars turning the bike into a corner...they have a weight to it..a resistance as the rest of the bike is under control of the front wheel...when you approach the limit of the tyres grip..the feel from the handlebars gets easier and lighter...because the tyre is also slightly slipping across the tarmac..and so for me ,the limit is when the rest of the machine is no longer `connected` with the inputs of the steering angle..
The back...on pronlonged track days it can be suprising just how much grip disappears when a road tyre starts overheating...worth playing with gently just what happens when you find the back isn`t hooking up...
Edited by F.M on Thursday 24th May 17:02
F.M said:
For me...hard to say but...
The front..when you move the handlebars turning the bike into a corner...they have a weight to it..a resistance as the rest of the bike is under control of the front wheel...when you approach the limit of the tyres grip..the feel from the handlebars gets easier and lighter...because the tyre is into slightly slipping across the tatrmac..and so for me ,the limit is when the rest of the machine is no longer `connected` with the inputs of the steering angle..
The back...on pronlonged track days it can be suprising just how much grip dissapears when a road tyre starts overheating...worth playing with gently just what happens when you find the back isn`t hooking up...
Interesting you should say that - I studied vehicle dynamics at uni, and with car handling this effect also occurs. It's basically down to the effective centre of grip from the tyre moving backward as the slip angle increases. This tends to decrease the total trail which is the difference between the trail resulting from the geometry of the steering system (mechanical trail) and the so called pneumatic trail resulting from the above effect. The feedback force is proportional to the distance between the centre of force from the contact patch and the steering axis (think shopping trolley castor). As the contact patch moves back toward where the steering axis intersects with the ground, the steering goes all light.The front..when you move the handlebars turning the bike into a corner...they have a weight to it..a resistance as the rest of the bike is under control of the front wheel...when you approach the limit of the tyres grip..the feel from the handlebars gets easier and lighter...because the tyre is into slightly slipping across the tatrmac..and so for me ,the limit is when the rest of the machine is no longer `connected` with the inputs of the steering angle..
The back...on pronlonged track days it can be suprising just how much grip dissapears when a road tyre starts overheating...worth playing with gently just what happens when you find the back isn`t hooking up...
Edited by F.M on Thursday 24th May 15:59
Not sure how it all applies to bikes though, or if any of that made sense at all.
Edited by tybalt on Thursday 24th May 16:09
Edited by tybalt on Thursday 24th May 16:10
F.M said:
For me...hard to say but...
The front..when you move the handlebars turning the bike into a corner...they have a weight to it..a resistance as the rest of the bike is under control of the front wheel...when you approach the limit of the tyres grip..the feel from the handlebars gets easier and lighter...because the tyre is into slightly slipping across the tatrmac..and so for me ,the limit is when the rest of the machine is no longer `connected` with the inputs of the steering angle..
The back...on pronlonged track days it can be suprising just how much grip dissapears when a road tyre starts overheating...worth playing with gently just what happens when you find the back isn`t hooking up...
The front..when you move the handlebars turning the bike into a corner...they have a weight to it..a resistance as the rest of the bike is under control of the front wheel...when you approach the limit of the tyres grip..the feel from the handlebars gets easier and lighter...because the tyre is into slightly slipping across the tatrmac..and so for me ,the limit is when the rest of the machine is no longer `connected` with the inputs of the steering angle..
The back...on pronlonged track days it can be suprising just how much grip dissapears when a road tyre starts overheating...worth playing with gently just what happens when you find the back isn`t hooking up...
Edited by F.M on Thursday 24th May 15:59
That's jsut the sort of thing I was after FM, cheers for the insight!I'm always amazed at how good riders can say one bike is significantly 'better' than others at handling when they haven't lost either end.
For what its worth, in 25 years of road and some track riding ive never met anyone, including some club racer friends who could predictably slide front and/or rear at will IE when they choose to.
Sure, gassing it hard out of slow /medium speed corners you may feel the bike come slightly out of line and upon re tracing your steps you may well find a lovely black line on the road /track but to replicate it time after time and really push the limits you’ve got to be racing and on track…and of course the racers don’t want to tear their tyres up so it’s a skill they employ when the tyre is either shot or they’ve made a bad tyre choice.
I can say in the time ive been riding of only ever once exceeded the limitations of a tyre and myself combined when I low sided my NS400 many moons ago…
On the road 99% of people will not overcome their own limiations before a decent bike tyre loses grip.
Off road it’s a different matter…great fun finding the limits and it (usually) doesn’t hurt nowhere near as much when you get it wrong!
Sure, gassing it hard out of slow /medium speed corners you may feel the bike come slightly out of line and upon re tracing your steps you may well find a lovely black line on the road /track but to replicate it time after time and really push the limits you’ve got to be racing and on track…and of course the racers don’t want to tear their tyres up so it’s a skill they employ when the tyre is either shot or they’ve made a bad tyre choice.
I can say in the time ive been riding of only ever once exceeded the limitations of a tyre and myself combined when I low sided my NS400 many moons ago…
On the road 99% of people will not overcome their own limiations before a decent bike tyre loses grip.
Off road it’s a different matter…great fun finding the limits and it (usually) doesn’t hurt nowhere near as much when you get it wrong!
F.M said:
For me...hard to say but...
The front..when you move the handlebars turning the bike into a corner...they have a weight to it..a resistance as the rest of the bike is under control of the front wheel...when you approach the limit of the tyres grip..the feel from the handlebars gets easier and lighter...because the tyre is also slightly slipping across the tarmac..and so for me ,the limit is when the rest of the machine is no longer `connected` with the inputs of the steering angle..
The back...on pronlonged track days it can be suprising just how much grip disappears when a road tyre starts overheating...worth playing with gently just what happens when you find the back isn`t hooking up...
That makes sense too me, well put.The front..when you move the handlebars turning the bike into a corner...they have a weight to it..a resistance as the rest of the bike is under control of the front wheel...when you approach the limit of the tyres grip..the feel from the handlebars gets easier and lighter...because the tyre is also slightly slipping across the tarmac..and so for me ,the limit is when the rest of the machine is no longer `connected` with the inputs of the steering angle..
The back...on pronlonged track days it can be suprising just how much grip disappears when a road tyre starts overheating...worth playing with gently just what happens when you find the back isn`t hooking up...
Edited by F.M on Thursday 24th May 17:02
I've sat here thinking how I could put into words what I feel when I *push on*, without sounding like a gob sh1t3.
Front end.. Similar to what FM described, but I get the feeling that the handlebars are starting too turn inwards (on the brakes cranked over)or a similar feeling flicking left to right through a chicane.
Rear end.. not as scary. Corners such as "Sunny out" at Croft Maximum lean angle while hard on the gas, will have the rear spinning no problem if you wish, best to pick it up, and gas it hard as it totally destroys rears. The feeling I get there is through my backside and hands.
The feeling between different bikes? Swapping from mine,600RR too a 636. The Honda has a much better feeling from throttle too brakes(Honda's Mass Centralisation I suppose) and much more stable mid corner (again a feeling I get through my backside.
Can not give advice on rear brake as I never use it.
John.
& 
F.M said:
For me...hard to say but...
The front..when you move the handlebars turning the bike into a corner...they have a weight to it..a resistance as the rest of the bike is under control of the front wheel...when you approach the limit of the tyres grip..the feel from the handlebars gets easier and lighter...because the tyre is also slightly slipping across the tarmac..and so for me ,the limit is when the rest of the machine is no longer `connected` with the inputs of the steering angle..
The back...on pronlonged track days it can be suprising just how much grip disappears when a road tyre starts overheating...worth playing with gently just what happens when you find the back isn`t hooking up...
very well put The front..when you move the handlebars turning the bike into a corner...they have a weight to it..a resistance as the rest of the bike is under control of the front wheel...when you approach the limit of the tyres grip..the feel from the handlebars gets easier and lighter...because the tyre is also slightly slipping across the tarmac..and so for me ,the limit is when the rest of the machine is no longer `connected` with the inputs of the steering angle..
The back...on pronlonged track days it can be suprising just how much grip disappears when a road tyre starts overheating...worth playing with gently just what happens when you find the back isn`t hooking up...
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