Why do I need a power commander?

[reAnimate]

If I add an exhaust and cone filter to a standard engine (say a rover k series) without adding a mappable ecu and mapping it, it gains torque throughout the rpm range.

so why on a bike if I add an exhaust and filter does it need to be mapped using a power commander?

[RemaL]

No a bike expert, but the strees and compression in a bike is much more than you get in a car. tolerances, revs and power to weight may also mean that you need to remap a bike engine.

also depending on if the bike runs carbs or injection much in the same way as a car. My kit car would need a rolling road when cams, or exhaust's are needed as it is carbs and runs like a bitch if I don't

[Chilli]

No idea mate, but would be interested to know........ What's a power commander?

Anyone??

[John Laverick]

reAnimate said:

If I add an exhaust and cone filter to a standard engine (say a rover k series) without adding a mappable ecu and mapping it, it gains torque throughout the rpm range.

so why on a bike if I add an exhaust and filter does it need to be mapped using a power commander?

If you add an exhaust and cone filter to a standard car engine then yes you will gain a little power and torque ... however the standard mapping will not make the best of the new induction and exhaust system and if you had it 'chipped' or re-mapped it would make even more power/torque.

This principle is EXACTLY the same for the bike engine - the power commander is essential just a 'chip'.

[I'm making the assumption these Power Commanders are only used on Fuel Injected bikes??]

[black-k1]

When you add a freer flowing exhaust and/or air filter you run the risk of increasing the air part of the fuel/air mixture thus weakening the mixture. This can lead to pre-ignition (knocking) under certain circumstances. If not sorted this could ultimately lead to holing a piston. (Expensive!!!!)

Most car engines don’t run at quite such high a state of tune (how often do you see between 150 and 200bhp per litre from a car?) and they also generally have more sophisticated ECUs with things such as knock sensors that allow for greater adjustments to the engine as standard.

With the bike ECU there tends not to be the same level sophistication in the management system with the maps being ‘more focused’ and thus generally are not able to allow for such radical changes as a free flow exhaust/filter. The Power Commander simply enables a different engine management map, taking into account the different exhaust and filter, ensuring that the timing and fueling are adjusted accordingly. This both protects the engine and ensures you get the most from your exhaust and filter.

[podman]

Your right John...back in teh carb'd days a few years ago you would have used a dynojet kit or similar..

In a lot of cases, adding an end can and a filter wont make a lot of difference to the fueling and it may well be fine as it is...a quick spin on a rolling road (circa £30-£40) will confirm if you really need a PC or not

[Ballon]

I had both my Mille (01) and Tuono (04) PC'd when I put on a Akrapovic and K & N filter. Whilst not giving huge gains you could certainly feel the difference. Can't remember what the final figures where for the Mille but the Tuono was putting out 121bhp at the back wheel, which I was told by the local dealer was very good and the torque went up by about 10%. What you did notice was that there where no flat spots anywhere in the power delivery. I would recommend one to anyone.

The people who did mine where a company called PDQ in Slough, they really know what they are doing and because they do the mapping themselves by running the bike on a dyno you get a map specific to your bike rather than a generic one.

[Steve_T]

It's one of these:



I fitted one to the Falco recently - if you have a mate in the states who can take delivery of one and bring it/mail it back they're a bargain (mine was £150 new!). On the Aprilia, they plug in to your fuel injector connections, plus a throttle pot and are earthed to the battery. Others may vary depending on how the injectors are wired, because in this case, the unit is powering itself from the injectors.

By intercepting the injector wiring, the unit can alter the duration the injectors stay open for and therefore the add or remove fuel. The standard manufacturer map for any bike tends to be lean (not enough fuel), although the ignition timing tends to be pretty good and not need altering. The lean mapping tends to give poor drivability, so the bike is hesistant, stutters etc when rolling on the gas coming off a closed throttle. Even a standard map (there's a few each downloadable for most bikes via the dynojet website) made a huge difference to how the Falco behaved. PC owners can and do upload their maps to the website, so you can often find a map for your bike by someone with the same mods. You download the maps to the PC using a USB lead, so it's a doddle to work with. You can go a step further again get a custom map done for your bike. I don't know how much more I'd get from that though.

Steve.

[reAnimate]

black-k1 said:

Most car engines don’t run at quite such high a state of tune (how often do you see between 150 and 200bhp per litre from a car?) and they also generally have more sophisticated ECUs with things such as knock sensors that allow for greater adjustments to the engine as standard.

This is the bit that surprises me - that while a bike engine is much higher tuned, yet runs a more basic ECU then a car. Surely with the higher state of tune they'd put more into the ECU?

Anyway, thanks for all the responses.

[black-k1]

reAnimate said:

black-k1 said:

Most car engines don’t run at quite such high a state of tune (how often do you see between 150 and 200bhp per litre from a car?) and they also generally have more sophisticated ECUs with things such as knock sensors that allow for greater adjustments to the engine as standard.

This is the bit that surprises me - that while a bike engine is much higher tuned, yet runs a more basic ECU then a car. Surely with the higher state of tune they'd put more into the ECU?

Anyway, thanks for all the responses.

I agree, but if you think about it, fuel injection has really only been main stream on bikes for about the last 10 years (except BMW) but for cars it’s been main stream for over 30 years. I assume it is probably a cost thing with a more complicated engine managment requiring the fitting of an increased number of more expensive sensors etc. With bike volumes being small by comparison to cars there is probably not the financial incentive to fit the more complicated (read expensive) management systems.

[fredd1e]

I would say it also very much depends on what bike you've got. Some bikes will give more HP and torque without "needing" a PCIII after a can and filter mod but could still benifit from the tweaks to the fuel map for better midrange etc but wont see any extra top end hp numbers. Others will run dangerously lean without a PC111 but still show gains. You need to research if you bike is ok or dodgy without the add on.
Mine a ducati PaulSmart 1000 is tooo lean with airbox filter mods so needs more fuel, the same engine in the earlier 1000ss doesnt , reason: ducati had to tighten up its emmissions since the 1000ss was made so later bikes have far leaner fuelling with 02 sensors fitted to the exhuast to allow ECU control to keep it that way
.

[bimsb6]

a bonus with the pc is that bikes are tuned to pass noise emission tests so tend to have a dip in the power at the revs the noise test is done at,the pc can then remove this dip giving a better power curve throughout the rev range.this does tend to refer to older injected bikes and a dyno run before spending the cash may be worthwhile,as said previously pdq are the guys and tts in silverstone .

[Busamav]

If you just want noise , get a can and filter, it will also interfere with the pick up and smooth running

But hey , you have enough noise to piss people off and bugger up the running of your bike .

If your after power get a full system, a pc and a personalised map will also help you make the most of it all

I honestly would suggest that anything less than a full system is truly a waste of hard earned . I dont believe that people get to use the power they have anyway

[reAnimate]

Thanks, my bike is stock and is to remain that way (learned the hard and expensive way tuning an Elise)
My philosophy is if you want more power - buy a more powerful bike.
I was just curious.
TVM

Simon.

[R1_NUR]

Steve_T said:

The lean mapping tends to give poor drivability, so the bike is hesistant, stutters etc when rolling on the gas coming off a closed throttle.

Thats really interesting. I am struggling with just that problem on my new 07 R1 - do you think a PC would help?

Edited by R1_NUR on Sunday 8th July 22:21

[Steve_T]

I was recommended a motorcycle tuner by a friend of mine who tunes Rover V8 engines in TVRs and Land Rovers. It turned out the bike tuner worked on bikes for the TT and when I spoke to him about mapping the Aprilia, he said to me what I said here. Bikes are mapped lean (too lean) for emissions purposes, to get the approvals that manufacturers need, but it can give us riders the poor drivability you describe.

I've just downloaded a map for an 07 R1 standard pipe and air filter (I think you can download the power commander software for free from the Dynojet website, so you could look at the map too). It's notable that at the low throttle openings and at low revs, the PC is adding quite a bit of duration to the injector opening times (and therefore fuel). This is most likely there to smooth out the transition as you roll on the gas from a closed throttle. So short answer yes, I think it could help you. Just remember what I said about buying via a mate in the US - saves you ~50%!

Steve.

Edited by Steve_T on Monday 9th July 00:04

[R1_NUR]

Steve_T said:

I've just downloaded a map for an 07 R1 standard pipe and air filter (I think you can download the power commander software for free from the Dynojet website, so you could look at the map too). It's notable that at the low throttle openings and at low revs, the PC is adding quite a bit of duration to the injector opening times (and therefore fuel). This is most likely there to smooth out the transition as you roll on the gas from a closed throttle. So short answer yes, I think it could help you. Just remember what I said about buying via a mate in the US - saves you ~50%!

Steve.

Thank you very much for that. I have a friend in Vancouver who can send me one from there. I will look at the 2 recommended tuners in this thread. Where does it physically go on the bike?

Edited by R1_NUR on Monday 9th July 07:42

[Steve_T]

Instructions for install here - http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander_iii_u...

I'm not sure where the unit is installed but there's a pic in the guide. Perhaps it'll make more sense to you?

[R1_NUR]

Thanks Steve T.

I did some investigation today and popped in to Tamworth Yamaha to pick their brains. Great dealership, great staff and top advice.

Outcome is - I am going to buy the PC in Canada (save 50%), Tamworth will fit and set it up. Overall cost just slightly higher than the unit on it's own at UK prices.

Will let you know how it all works out.

Cheers for your advice.

Ben

Edited by R1_NUR on Monday 9th July 19:57