Salvage Retention
Discussion
I had my R6 stolen about 5 weeks ago, the insurance company have finally got around to making me an offer … however they haven’t offered salvage retention. I would quite like to keep hold of the bike to use on track …. do the insurance have any legal obligation to offer salvage retention as part of the settlement?
Andy OH said:
Have you offered to buy it back from them?? or did you want the bike as part of the settlement??
Both ... apparently the bike has gone off to Merseyside to be stored [without me knowing which I wasn't very happy about].Edited by Andy OH on Tuesday 13th November 16:34
I've spoken to the insurance company who won't offer salvage retention as part of the settlement and the company who has it now will put it into auction once I agree with my insurance company. The only way to buy it back is to turn up on the day of auction.
John,
I had a rather similar experience a few years ago.
I'd stuffed the FZR and it was AA'd back to the dealer where the insurance assessor turned up to have a look.
Given that the front wheel was where the engine used to be, he decided it was a write-off and (to avoid paying any extra storage costs) instructed their "pet" breakers to collect the bike from the dealer.
Because the dealer knew me quite well, he called me to tell me this was happening.
What the insurers tend to forget is that until and unless your claim is settled, you still own the bike. The breaker collecting mine or the insurer's rep / agent etc taking your's is theft ("TWOC"
- plain and simple.
I laid it on thick with the insurance co - told them to get the bike back to the dealers ASAP and that if any parts had already been taken off it, there would be big probs. Bike returned to dealers within the hour, insurer withdrew their original paultry offer and agreed to settle at my full valuation.
Doesn't change the fact that once you settle, they are not obliged to offer you the bike, but if you've got them on the back foot you could probably include this as part of the deal just to avoid you bringing charges.
(25 years of working in the insurance game sometimes helps!)
Dave
I had a rather similar experience a few years ago.
I'd stuffed the FZR and it was AA'd back to the dealer where the insurance assessor turned up to have a look.
Given that the front wheel was where the engine used to be, he decided it was a write-off and (to avoid paying any extra storage costs) instructed their "pet" breakers to collect the bike from the dealer.
Because the dealer knew me quite well, he called me to tell me this was happening.
What the insurers tend to forget is that until and unless your claim is settled, you still own the bike. The breaker collecting mine or the insurer's rep / agent etc taking your's is theft ("TWOC"
- plain and simple.I laid it on thick with the insurance co - told them to get the bike back to the dealers ASAP and that if any parts had already been taken off it, there would be big probs. Bike returned to dealers within the hour, insurer withdrew their original paultry offer and agreed to settle at my full valuation.
Doesn't change the fact that once you settle, they are not obliged to offer you the bike, but if you've got them on the back foot you could probably include this as part of the deal just to avoid you bringing charges.
(25 years of working in the insurance game sometimes helps!)
Dave
Buelligan 984 said:
John,
I had a rather similar experience a few years ago.
I'd stuffed the FZR and it was AA'd back to the dealer where the insurance assessor turned up to have a look.
Given that the front wheel was where the engine used to be, he decided it was a write-off and (to avoid paying any extra storage costs) instructed their "pet" breakers to collect the bike from the dealer.
Because the dealer knew me quite well, he called me to tell me this was happening.
What the insurers tend to forget is that until and unless your claim is settled, you still own the bike. The breaker collecting mine or the insurer's rep / agent etc taking your's is theft ("TWOC"- plain and simple.
I laid it on thick with the insurance co - told them to get the bike back to the dealers ASAP and that if any parts had already been taken off it, there would be big probs. Bike returned to dealers within the hour, insurer withdrew their original paultry offer and agreed to settle at my full valuation.
Doesn't change the fact that once you settle, they are not obliged to offer you the bike, but if you've got them on the back foot you could probably include this as part of the deal just to avoid you bringing charges.
(25 years of working in the insurance game sometimes helps!)
Dave
Thanks for the advice ... this did actually cross my mind. I too know my dealer pretty well which is why I requested it went to them [I actually pushed it there rather than pay to have it picked up!!].I had a rather similar experience a few years ago.
I'd stuffed the FZR and it was AA'd back to the dealer where the insurance assessor turned up to have a look.
Given that the front wheel was where the engine used to be, he decided it was a write-off and (to avoid paying any extra storage costs) instructed their "pet" breakers to collect the bike from the dealer.
Because the dealer knew me quite well, he called me to tell me this was happening.
What the insurers tend to forget is that until and unless your claim is settled, you still own the bike. The breaker collecting mine or the insurer's rep / agent etc taking your's is theft ("TWOC"
- plain and simple.I laid it on thick with the insurance co - told them to get the bike back to the dealers ASAP and that if any parts had already been taken off it, there would be big probs. Bike returned to dealers within the hour, insurer withdrew their original paultry offer and agreed to settle at my full valuation.
Doesn't change the fact that once you settle, they are not obliged to offer you the bike, but if you've got them on the back foot you could probably include this as part of the deal just to avoid you bringing charges.
(25 years of working in the insurance game sometimes helps!)
Dave
Anyway ... because I'm not far from the dealer I didn't empty the underseat compartment before dropping it off .... so now my belongings are in Liverpool! Which I'm not happy about!
I've spoken to the insurance co and they've offered my £3800 .... [2004 R6 with 5000 miles in Red, Mint] .. which from looking on the trader seems a little low. I think it should be nearer £4200.
Edited by John Laverick on Tuesday 13th November 20:47
John (and anyone else who's listening),
Before I start, I just want to say that what I say below might sound arrogant. It is not meant to be. I have a brother who lays solid wood floors for a living; I have a brother who designs websites, I have another brother who is a 'fine art cartenter'. I wouldn't tell the carpenter how to hand-cut dovetail joints - I know naff all about websites etc etc. I do know about how insurance Co's work.
There is so much that the general public misunderstands about motor insurance. Most Co's pay out more in claims each year than they get in as premiums! On average, they have your premium for six months before they pay it out as a claim settlement to some policyholder - the money is invested for six months and the investment return on that investment covers all the claims losses (more claims than premiums), all admin etc costs and still leaves enough for a profit at the end of the year.
Motor insurance is "stack it high, sell it cheap and wrap up the claims at minimum expense" business. At the moment, you seem to be £400 shy of what you want / consider reasonable. What you need to do is convince the insuerer that you are going to be such a pain in the neck to them that it is going to cost more than £400 in admin costs to keep on dealing with your complaints / correspondence etc that it's better for them to "buy you out" and settle on your proposed figure.
Its actually a bit more subtle than that - they don't want to get a reputation for being a "soft touch" that rolls over too easy. The shareholders tend to get annoyed if they see the profits going down the pan. Equally, they do have a reputation to maintain - they don't want to be hauled over the coals / get bad press for having to defend against accusations of theft etc. Again, the shareholders are not impressed.
Most claimants tend to settle without too much hassle - either they can't be arsed to argue too much, or they need the money to but another vehicle or they just don't know how it works. This is simply part of the "money equation" - from the insurer's point of view most customers get shafted, a tiny minority argue long and hard and that's factored into the offers made. Get yourself into the "difficult, unpleasent, not going to let go" category!
Remember that you are (n purely financial terms) arguing about £400 on an offer figure of £3,800. From the insurer's perspective they are getting (say) 8% return on that £3,800 until they pay it out. If they can string it out for another year they have lost nothing except the admin cost involved in dealing with you for that year. (8% on £3,800 ends up as close to £4,200 one year on.)Equally you are losing about 5% a year until you settle. (This is roughly what you'd get on £3,800 in a building society.)
You either need to hit them with large admin costs (ie be a pain) or hit them on the reputation front. They have "stolen" your bike - also they have stolen your personal property. "Stolen" might be a bit strong: the insurer has a right to mitigate its costs as far as possible (ie to avoid storage costs). What they did wrong was to move the bike without telling you first and giving you an opportunity to collect your property.
I would write to them - politely but firmly - explaining that your bike and your personal property were taken without your knowledge or consent; that you are very unhappy about this state of affairs; that all of your personal property must be returned to you within 14 days; that if any of your personal property is missing or damaged (other than as a result of the accident), you will be taking legal advice as to how to remedy the situation etc. If you want to get really "antsi" you also say that your vehicle was moved without your knowledge or consent and that you expect it to be returned to the original location until and unless they seek your written consent to move it again.
Put yourself in the position of the humble insurance clerk (been there, done that). His job is to turn round your standard letters as fast as possible. He also knows that once the possibility of legal action is mentioned, he refers it to the Claims Manager who will take up the case, possibly involving the Co's legal team. Their costs suddenly go through the roof. (BTW, this is not universal ins Co practice, just an example.) If the legal team identify a failure in practice etc, they'll say "give this guy £400 to get him off our backs". Well, wouldn't you?
It still doesn't get you the salavage rights, but as I said before, if you mention this in your correspondence, they might just make an offer just to close your case.
HTH,
Dave
Before I start, I just want to say that what I say below might sound arrogant. It is not meant to be. I have a brother who lays solid wood floors for a living; I have a brother who designs websites, I have another brother who is a 'fine art cartenter'. I wouldn't tell the carpenter how to hand-cut dovetail joints - I know naff all about websites etc etc. I do know about how insurance Co's work.
There is so much that the general public misunderstands about motor insurance. Most Co's pay out more in claims each year than they get in as premiums! On average, they have your premium for six months before they pay it out as a claim settlement to some policyholder - the money is invested for six months and the investment return on that investment covers all the claims losses (more claims than premiums), all admin etc costs and still leaves enough for a profit at the end of the year.
Motor insurance is "stack it high, sell it cheap and wrap up the claims at minimum expense" business. At the moment, you seem to be £400 shy of what you want / consider reasonable. What you need to do is convince the insuerer that you are going to be such a pain in the neck to them that it is going to cost more than £400 in admin costs to keep on dealing with your complaints / correspondence etc that it's better for them to "buy you out" and settle on your proposed figure.
Its actually a bit more subtle than that - they don't want to get a reputation for being a "soft touch" that rolls over too easy. The shareholders tend to get annoyed if they see the profits going down the pan. Equally, they do have a reputation to maintain - they don't want to be hauled over the coals / get bad press for having to defend against accusations of theft etc. Again, the shareholders are not impressed.
Most claimants tend to settle without too much hassle - either they can't be arsed to argue too much, or they need the money to but another vehicle or they just don't know how it works. This is simply part of the "money equation" - from the insurer's point of view most customers get shafted, a tiny minority argue long and hard and that's factored into the offers made. Get yourself into the "difficult, unpleasent, not going to let go" category!
Remember that you are (n purely financial terms) arguing about £400 on an offer figure of £3,800. From the insurer's perspective they are getting (say) 8% return on that £3,800 until they pay it out. If they can string it out for another year they have lost nothing except the admin cost involved in dealing with you for that year. (8% on £3,800 ends up as close to £4,200 one year on.)Equally you are losing about 5% a year until you settle. (This is roughly what you'd get on £3,800 in a building society.)
You either need to hit them with large admin costs (ie be a pain) or hit them on the reputation front. They have "stolen" your bike - also they have stolen your personal property. "Stolen" might be a bit strong: the insurer has a right to mitigate its costs as far as possible (ie to avoid storage costs). What they did wrong was to move the bike without telling you first and giving you an opportunity to collect your property.
I would write to them - politely but firmly - explaining that your bike and your personal property were taken without your knowledge or consent; that you are very unhappy about this state of affairs; that all of your personal property must be returned to you within 14 days; that if any of your personal property is missing or damaged (other than as a result of the accident), you will be taking legal advice as to how to remedy the situation etc. If you want to get really "antsi" you also say that your vehicle was moved without your knowledge or consent and that you expect it to be returned to the original location until and unless they seek your written consent to move it again.
Put yourself in the position of the humble insurance clerk (been there, done that). His job is to turn round your standard letters as fast as possible. He also knows that once the possibility of legal action is mentioned, he refers it to the Claims Manager who will take up the case, possibly involving the Co's legal team. Their costs suddenly go through the roof. (BTW, this is not universal ins Co practice, just an example.) If the legal team identify a failure in practice etc, they'll say "give this guy £400 to get him off our backs". Well, wouldn't you?
It still doesn't get you the salavage rights, but as I said before, if you mention this in your correspondence, they might just make an offer just to close your case.
HTH,
Dave
Dave,
Thanks for the detailed post, no arrogance detected at all! Although I don’t know the detailed ins and outs of insurance … I have a good appreciation for business so know roughly how it works.
I have since spoken to the claims advisor who was himself a biker and very knowledgeable, I expressed my disappointment in the bike being moved without my consent and he agreed and apologised. Thing was he once such a nice genuine chap I didn’t feel it was necessary to kick-up a fuss. Anyway we have agreed on a settlement of £4000 which I am happy with [as I purchased the bike private at £3800] and with a bit of haggling at a dealer I think I can get the £4200 bike for around £4000 at this time of year. I have obviously accepted his offer on the strict agreement that my belongings a returned within 7 days.
Thanks for the detailed post, no arrogance detected at all! Although I don’t know the detailed ins and outs of insurance … I have a good appreciation for business so know roughly how it works.
I have since spoken to the claims advisor who was himself a biker and very knowledgeable, I expressed my disappointment in the bike being moved without my consent and he agreed and apologised. Thing was he once such a nice genuine chap I didn’t feel it was necessary to kick-up a fuss. Anyway we have agreed on a settlement of £4000 which I am happy with [as I purchased the bike private at £3800] and with a bit of haggling at a dealer I think I can get the £4200 bike for around £4000 at this time of year. I have obviously accepted his offer on the strict agreement that my belongings a returned within 7 days.
Edited by John Laverick on Friday 16th November 09:41
Great post buell!!
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