Chocolate fasteners...
Discussion
Remember them? Those of you who were riding 'back then' will recall the shocking quality of nuts and bolts that held everything from the engine covers to the headlamp in place. I though those days were gone but no. I had to take the front wheel off the ST to have a new tyre fitted and the book of words says that you should remove the mudguard first. Simple task; 6 screws.
I knew as soon as the first hex head rounded off on the end of my 6mm key that it wasn't going to go according to plan and sure enough it didn't. I had to resort to jacking the bike under the engine as high as I dared and wrenching the wheel out from under the mudguard because the captive nuts in the mudguard had all corroded to bollox and were spinning with the bolts.
In the event I think I got three bolts out and managed to get a pair of long-nose vice grips on the square captives while I assaulted them with an 8mm spanner. One eventually came out and the other two sheared off
. Needless to say the spinning captives had shredded the mouldings that are meant to keep them in place so I knew getting them back in would be a riot.
I ran a tap through the captives that were useable and resorted to using an endmill in the milling machine to cut out the siezed screws. With the remains out the threads were actually useable once I'd chased them through with a tap, so once the wheel was back in it was time for Hands Like A Paedophile (tm) to get the captives up inside the mudguard. A new set of stainless bolts and plenty of Rocol anti-sieze and the job was right... though for the sake of a few pence-worth of quality metal the whole job would have taken seconds. I dread to think how corroded some of the bolts I can't see, might be...
Incidentally Honda have made a right meal of the front wheel installation; I don't know about other models but I'd hate to think I had to remove and replace the wheel by the side of the road. Four clamp bolts in the forks, two different types of bolts holding the calipers, a big nut on the end of the spindle, feeler-gauge to set running clearances AND the aforementioned mudguard - WHAT a bloody ar53-on! You couldn't do the Long Way Back or whatever without RAC recovery, a trolley jack and a 3 foot torque wrench... :shakesheadsadly:
I knew as soon as the first hex head rounded off on the end of my 6mm key that it wasn't going to go according to plan and sure enough it didn't. I had to resort to jacking the bike under the engine as high as I dared and wrenching the wheel out from under the mudguard because the captive nuts in the mudguard had all corroded to bollox and were spinning with the bolts.
In the event I think I got three bolts out and managed to get a pair of long-nose vice grips on the square captives while I assaulted them with an 8mm spanner. One eventually came out and the other two sheared off
. Needless to say the spinning captives had shredded the mouldings that are meant to keep them in place so I knew getting them back in would be a riot.I ran a tap through the captives that were useable and resorted to using an endmill in the milling machine to cut out the siezed screws. With the remains out the threads were actually useable once I'd chased them through with a tap, so once the wheel was back in it was time for Hands Like A Paedophile (tm) to get the captives up inside the mudguard. A new set of stainless bolts and plenty of Rocol anti-sieze and the job was right... though for the sake of a few pence-worth of quality metal the whole job would have taken seconds. I dread to think how corroded some of the bolts I can't see, might be...
Incidentally Honda have made a right meal of the front wheel installation; I don't know about other models but I'd hate to think I had to remove and replace the wheel by the side of the road. Four clamp bolts in the forks, two different types of bolts holding the calipers, a big nut on the end of the spindle, feeler-gauge to set running clearances AND the aforementioned mudguard - WHAT a bloody ar53-on! You couldn't do the Long Way Back or whatever without RAC recovery, a trolley jack and a 3 foot torque wrench... :shakesheadsadly:
Not sure about chocolatey but I've replaced all the mild steel bolts on my bike due to the impressive rate they were turning to poo. I knew it was going to happen due to me using it all the time and perhaps sometimes being a little lax with the cleaning. Almost looks new again now 
Only problem was I couldn't find any inexpensive axle bolts so ended up with titanium ones.
Only problem was I couldn't find any inexpensive axle bolts so ended up with titanium ones.
One of the first things I do with any bike, new or just new to me, is spend a few hours undoing every fastener, copper greasing it (if needed), then torquing it back in. The time spent in the garage (cup of coffee in winter, cold beer in summer) makes a roadside repair much faster and the next maintenance job much easier.
I have found Triumph fasteners to be the least worst (if you know what I mean), followed by Honda, but Suzuki seem to buy their bolts from a cheesemonger and their nuts from monkeys.
I am always amazed with second hand bikes how badly done up things can be; axle bolts only hand tight, tiny bolts done up till they stretch (or just snap and the head gets super-glued on...!) and even once all four front caliper bolts on a TL1000 covered with grease instead of thread-lok so they had started to vibe loose... scary!
People who don't understand machines shouldn't be allowed them...
I especially hate when a previous owner has spattered a bike with anodised tat bolts as well; especially when it is key fasteners and they have replaced them with mickey-mouse alloy. Do they really think it makes the bike look better (or more valuable?).
Stainless steel though...? Oh yes, now you're torquing...
I have found Triumph fasteners to be the least worst (if you know what I mean), followed by Honda, but Suzuki seem to buy their bolts from a cheesemonger and their nuts from monkeys.
I am always amazed with second hand bikes how badly done up things can be; axle bolts only hand tight, tiny bolts done up till they stretch (or just snap and the head gets super-glued on...!) and even once all four front caliper bolts on a TL1000 covered with grease instead of thread-lok so they had started to vibe loose... scary!
People who don't understand machines shouldn't be allowed them...
I especially hate when a previous owner has spattered a bike with anodised tat bolts as well; especially when it is key fasteners and they have replaced them with mickey-mouse alloy. Do they really think it makes the bike look better (or more valuable?).
Stainless steel though...? Oh yes, now you're torquing...
Caliper bolts are best left standard although I know plenty of people who will use titanium.
I have seen anodised aluminium tat bolts used; definitely not recommended!!!
On a slightly different note, how do you feel about Honda specifying caliper bolts have to be replaced with new any time they're disturbed?
I don't think there's any way they can have been weakened by being torqued sensibly, so whats wrong with a quick clean up and some thread lock?
I work part time for a main Honda dealership and the guys in the workshop would only replace the bolts if they are corroded or the customer asks for it to be done yet all the workshop manuals recommend it.
And anyway, have you seen the price of Honda bolts...!
I have seen anodised aluminium tat bolts used; definitely not recommended!!!
On a slightly different note, how do you feel about Honda specifying caliper bolts have to be replaced with new any time they're disturbed?
I don't think there's any way they can have been weakened by being torqued sensibly, so whats wrong with a quick clean up and some thread lock?
I work part time for a main Honda dealership and the guys in the workshop would only replace the bolts if they are corroded or the customer asks for it to be done yet all the workshop manuals recommend it.
And anyway, have you seen the price of Honda bolts...!
Rubin215 said:
On a slightly different note, how do you feel about Honda specifying caliper bolts have to be replaced with new any time they're disturbed?
I don't think there's any way they can have been weakened by being torqued sensibly, so whats wrong with a quick clean up and some thread lock?
I work part time for a main Honda dealership and the guys in the workshop would only replace the bolts if they are corroded or the customer asks for it to be done yet all the workshop manuals recommend it.
And anyway, have you seen the price of Honda bolts...!
The torque for the front mounting bolts on my blade is only 30Nm so I didn't bother replacing them as they can't be a stretch fit. To be perfectly honest I don't think I even bothered with threadlock.I don't think there's any way they can have been weakened by being torqued sensibly, so whats wrong with a quick clean up and some thread lock?
I work part time for a main Honda dealership and the guys in the workshop would only replace the bolts if they are corroded or the customer asks for it to be done yet all the workshop manuals recommend it.
And anyway, have you seen the price of Honda bolts...!
Threadlok?
Belt, braces, boy scout knife, condom...
I'd rather be safe than sorry. I know of a guy on an advanced course who had a hammering from the front and when he stopped found he was missing a caliper bolt completely! He had put new pads on himself just the week before and swears he had torqued everything up properly.
Also, a mate who races tells the tale of how he lost a front caliper off his bike completely when "fettling" it.
Hadn't tightened it enough and hadn't bothered lockwiring it as he was only going up and down the road outside his house (he lives in the country) and wasn't going "all that fast."
Try explaining that to the police though when you've just buried an un-registered, un-taxed, un-insured, un-mot'd vfr 400 through a hawthorn hedge and you're still standing there like a fool when they come round the corner on a Sunday drive.
Very understanding though; made sure he wasn't hurt (much), helped him pull the bike out the hedge and followed him slowly home before making him promise not to do it again.
Dread to think what the fine and points could have been!
Belt, braces, boy scout knife, condom...
I'd rather be safe than sorry. I know of a guy on an advanced course who had a hammering from the front and when he stopped found he was missing a caliper bolt completely! He had put new pads on himself just the week before and swears he had torqued everything up properly.
Also, a mate who races tells the tale of how he lost a front caliper off his bike completely when "fettling" it.
Hadn't tightened it enough and hadn't bothered lockwiring it as he was only going up and down the road outside his house (he lives in the country) and wasn't going "all that fast."
Try explaining that to the police though when you've just buried an un-registered, un-taxed, un-insured, un-mot'd vfr 400 through a hawthorn hedge and you're still standing there like a fool when they come round the corner on a Sunday drive.
Very understanding though; made sure he wasn't hurt (much), helped him pull the bike out the hedge and followed him slowly home before making him promise not to do it again.
Dread to think what the fine and points could have been!
Rubin215 said:
One of the first things I do with any bike, new or just new to me, is spend a few hours undoing every fastener, copper greasing it (if needed), then torquing it back in. The time spent in the garage (cup of coffee in winter, cold beer in summer) makes a roadside repair much faster and the next maintenance job much easier.
What do you mean "if needed"?Putting copper grease on a bolt that isn't designed to have it and then torquing it to a specified torque will put substantially more force in the bolt.
Exactly!
Torque sensitive bolts (wheel spindles, caliper bolts, fork clamps etc) don't get grease on the threads but might get a lick on the waist or under the head so they don't corrode in or seize.
Common or garden stuff (exhaust clamps, mudguard mounts, fairing stays etc) get a dab on the threads before they go in so they will come back out easier later.
It's common sense really...
Torque sensitive bolts (wheel spindles, caliper bolts, fork clamps etc) don't get grease on the threads but might get a lick on the waist or under the head so they don't corrode in or seize.
Common or garden stuff (exhaust clamps, mudguard mounts, fairing stays etc) get a dab on the threads before they go in so they will come back out easier later.
It's common sense really...
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