Curious observations...
Discussion
Work part time as an instructor, and recently have been coming across students who have had instruction with someone else before I get them and have the most unusual set of observations at give way junctions and roundabouts.
On arriving at the give way (minor road to major) they come to a complete halt (every single time) and then do an almost robotic series of headchecks.
When turning left, they scan the main road to the right, turn their head and scan the main road to the left, before finally doing a lifesaver look over the left shoulder and back along the pavement.
When turning right it is the opposite; scan main road to left, scan main road to right then final right lifesaver back down the side road.
This is done as three distinct stages, taking an extra three seconds stationary, and only after this lengthy series of checks do the brakes come off, the throttle gets opened and we start to move again.
Slow progress round the estates...
Having asked a few why they do it I have been told that it has been hammered into them from CBT onwards and they have been threatened that if they ever deviate from it (ever), not only will they end up dead, but they won't pass their test!
The justification of the left lifesaver when turning left is "just in case there's a cyclist in your blind spot," for rights the justification is "just in case someone is trying to overtake you."
Now, having ridden bikes for 25 years and taught others for over 8, I have not come across this until recently, having always done (and taught) right-left-right observations no matter which way we're turning (traffic from the right will hit you first, left has second chance, right again for the "boy racer" or the bike previously hidden.)
By my way of thinking, any cyclist on your left you will either have already overtaken on the run up to the junction, or will have seen when doing a lifesaver before adjusting your position in the lane (I teach road position as moving in to roughly 1/3 of the width of the lane when turning left at a give way).
At the junction, you know they're there, you can act accordingly.
Where is another cyclist supposed to appear from now (right Mr Spock, I'm on my bicycle; beam me down...)?
Likewise, when turning right you will already have checked mirrors and done a lifesaver before moving to the right hand side of the lane, so will be aware of anyone overtaking and will hold your change of lane position 'til they are past.
Are we now supposed to expect other vehicles to overtake us on the wrong side of the road and into the face of traffic turning in off the main road?
Motorcyclist for 25 years, car driver not much less; never seen it, never done it...
While I value safety and caution, surely this is going a bit over the top at the expense of swift and smooth progress?
Roundabouts now...
On approaching roundabouts, the same set of students have been taught to look over their left shoulder immediately before entering the roundabout i.e. less than five metres before the dotted line, no matter where they are positioned in the lane, no matter which exit they intend to take off the roundabout.
The justification for this is to make sure that another vehicle doesn't go straight on and crush them against the island...
IMHO, looking over your left shoulder less than five metres before the roundabout is a little too late to pick up on another vehicles intentions and react to it. It also takes vision away from traffic on the right, making it more likely for the student to miss someone approaching the roundabout at speed from the road immediately to their right.
I'm quite happy for a glance over the shoulder 15 to 20 meters before the roundabout, as it still gives you time to react to other road users and gives enough time for the vision to return to the road round the roundabout (the main road), but less than 5?
Also, these students have been hammered into always doing a left lifesaver before leaving the roundabout, no matter what their chosen exit or lane position.
This leads to the almost farcical situation of students in the left hand side of the lane going "straight ahead" with traffic on their right hand side trying to squeeze past them as they steadfastly stare over their left shoulder at an empty pavement...
I prefer to teach the last lifesaver being into the area of most danger; in this case being the traffic on the right hand side (the "racing line" leapfrogger). This at least gives the student the chance to adjust their speed or position to protect themselves.
I have identified the instructor who teaches this and have established that he was a "teach you how to pass the Cardington assesments in five days" school pupil, but haven't been able to get any common sense out of him re his choice of observations ("They'll fail their test if they don't do it" is his only reply...).
Anyone else been taught these, teaches these or can somehow justify them in ways I haven't seen?
On arriving at the give way (minor road to major) they come to a complete halt (every single time) and then do an almost robotic series of headchecks.
When turning left, they scan the main road to the right, turn their head and scan the main road to the left, before finally doing a lifesaver look over the left shoulder and back along the pavement.
When turning right it is the opposite; scan main road to left, scan main road to right then final right lifesaver back down the side road.
This is done as three distinct stages, taking an extra three seconds stationary, and only after this lengthy series of checks do the brakes come off, the throttle gets opened and we start to move again.
Slow progress round the estates...
Having asked a few why they do it I have been told that it has been hammered into them from CBT onwards and they have been threatened that if they ever deviate from it (ever), not only will they end up dead, but they won't pass their test!
The justification of the left lifesaver when turning left is "just in case there's a cyclist in your blind spot," for rights the justification is "just in case someone is trying to overtake you."
Now, having ridden bikes for 25 years and taught others for over 8, I have not come across this until recently, having always done (and taught) right-left-right observations no matter which way we're turning (traffic from the right will hit you first, left has second chance, right again for the "boy racer" or the bike previously hidden.)
By my way of thinking, any cyclist on your left you will either have already overtaken on the run up to the junction, or will have seen when doing a lifesaver before adjusting your position in the lane (I teach road position as moving in to roughly 1/3 of the width of the lane when turning left at a give way).
At the junction, you know they're there, you can act accordingly.
Where is another cyclist supposed to appear from now (right Mr Spock, I'm on my bicycle; beam me down...)?
Likewise, when turning right you will already have checked mirrors and done a lifesaver before moving to the right hand side of the lane, so will be aware of anyone overtaking and will hold your change of lane position 'til they are past.
Are we now supposed to expect other vehicles to overtake us on the wrong side of the road and into the face of traffic turning in off the main road?
Motorcyclist for 25 years, car driver not much less; never seen it, never done it...
While I value safety and caution, surely this is going a bit over the top at the expense of swift and smooth progress?
Roundabouts now...
On approaching roundabouts, the same set of students have been taught to look over their left shoulder immediately before entering the roundabout i.e. less than five metres before the dotted line, no matter where they are positioned in the lane, no matter which exit they intend to take off the roundabout.
The justification for this is to make sure that another vehicle doesn't go straight on and crush them against the island...
IMHO, looking over your left shoulder less than five metres before the roundabout is a little too late to pick up on another vehicles intentions and react to it. It also takes vision away from traffic on the right, making it more likely for the student to miss someone approaching the roundabout at speed from the road immediately to their right.
I'm quite happy for a glance over the shoulder 15 to 20 meters before the roundabout, as it still gives you time to react to other road users and gives enough time for the vision to return to the road round the roundabout (the main road), but less than 5?
Also, these students have been hammered into always doing a left lifesaver before leaving the roundabout, no matter what their chosen exit or lane position.
This leads to the almost farcical situation of students in the left hand side of the lane going "straight ahead" with traffic on their right hand side trying to squeeze past them as they steadfastly stare over their left shoulder at an empty pavement...
I prefer to teach the last lifesaver being into the area of most danger; in this case being the traffic on the right hand side (the "racing line" leapfrogger). This at least gives the student the chance to adjust their speed or position to protect themselves.
I have identified the instructor who teaches this and have established that he was a "teach you how to pass the Cardington assesments in five days" school pupil, but haven't been able to get any common sense out of him re his choice of observations ("They'll fail their test if they don't do it" is his only reply...).
Anyone else been taught these, teaches these or can somehow justify them in ways I haven't seen?
In general, it sounds to me that they have perhaps taken their previous instruction a little too literally and are going just a little over the top. I agree with you that a right-left-right system for all situations is very workable but I’m not sure I fully agree on your life-saver comment. I have always been taught, and in turn have taught, that the life-saver should be done over the shoulder of the direction you will be moving/turning. Thus if you are moving to the left or turning left then the life-saver should be over the left shoulder.
Remembering that the life-save is there for the purpose of spotting the thing that is a) in your mirror bind spot and b) right on top of you. If you are about to move left, and something is in the danger area (fast bicycle, motorcycle etc.) then looking over your right shoulder will not spot it thus not stop you from turning/moving into it’s path.
The life-saver should always be done at the last practical/safe moment when handling any hazard. Whether this is 5 yds or 15 yds before the hazard will depend on the exact circumstances at the time. (your speed, other traffic speed, visibility through/across the hazard, road surface, weather conditions etc.) and this is perhaps where the students are taking things too literally.
I used to instruct part time for many years and one of the reasons I gave up (other than it seriously impacted on family time) was that to me, it became too much about teaching newcomers to do life-saves at 5 yds and not enough about teaching them to assess each individual situation and managing the risks accordingly!
Remembering that the life-save is there for the purpose of spotting the thing that is a) in your mirror bind spot and b) right on top of you. If you are about to move left, and something is in the danger area (fast bicycle, motorcycle etc.) then looking over your right shoulder will not spot it thus not stop you from turning/moving into it’s path.
The life-saver should always be done at the last practical/safe moment when handling any hazard. Whether this is 5 yds or 15 yds before the hazard will depend on the exact circumstances at the time. (your speed, other traffic speed, visibility through/across the hazard, road surface, weather conditions etc.) and this is perhaps where the students are taking things too literally.
I used to instruct part time for many years and one of the reasons I gave up (other than it seriously impacted on family time) was that to me, it became too much about teaching newcomers to do life-saves at 5 yds and not enough about teaching them to assess each individual situation and managing the risks accordingly!
I have to agree that there is a lot of contradiction from various people on how to do observations and its surprising how many people who are learning are taught different methods, all of which apparently are supposed to be correct and would result on you failing if you did not do what the instructor says.
I have my test next week and my observations have been hammered into me as follows, this of course contradicts what the OP had said
If changing road position either to the left or right within your lane (like overtaking a parked car, moving out due to a cycle lane etc) then mirror, lifesaver right to move out and then left lightsaver to return back to your central road position. (no indicators apparently even if you end up moving into the oncomming lane as he says it will confuse motorists as they might think im going to turn right.!!!!)
For junctions, he tells me mirror, signal, lifesaver (one only in the direction of your turn), move to postion (whether left or right turn). If turning left or right then no more lifesavers just before you turn as you will distracted what is in front of you. However if you turning right from a major into a minor road, same as above but before the final turn, another right life saver incase someone has tried to overtake.
For roundabouts, same as above except always a left lifesaver just before exiting the roundabout
it gets confusing though, i think it might be better to get a minor for over lifesaving that a fail for not doing a crucial lifesaver....if in doubt do one?
I have my test next week and my observations have been hammered into me as follows, this of course contradicts what the OP had said
If changing road position either to the left or right within your lane (like overtaking a parked car, moving out due to a cycle lane etc) then mirror, lifesaver right to move out and then left lightsaver to return back to your central road position. (no indicators apparently even if you end up moving into the oncomming lane as he says it will confuse motorists as they might think im going to turn right.!!!!)
For junctions, he tells me mirror, signal, lifesaver (one only in the direction of your turn), move to postion (whether left or right turn). If turning left or right then no more lifesavers just before you turn as you will distracted what is in front of you. However if you turning right from a major into a minor road, same as above but before the final turn, another right life saver incase someone has tried to overtake.
For roundabouts, same as above except always a left lifesaver just before exiting the roundabout
it gets confusing though, i think it might be better to get a minor for over lifesaving that a fail for not doing a crucial lifesaver....if in doubt do one?
black-k1 said:
In general, it sounds to me that they have perhaps taken their previous instruction a little too literally and are going just a little over the top. I agree with you that a right-left-right system for all situations is very workable but I’m not sure I fully agree on your life-saver comment. I have always been taught, and in turn have taught, that the life-saver should be done over the shoulder of the direction you will be moving/turning. Thus if you are moving to the left or turning left then the life-saver should be over the left shoulder.
Remembering that the life-save is there for the purpose of spotting the thing that is a) in your mirror bind spot and b) right on top of you. If you are about to move left, and something is in the danger area (fast bicycle, motorcycle etc.) then looking over your right shoulder will not spot it thus not stop you from turning/moving into it’s path.
The life-saver should always be done at the last practical/safe moment when handling any hazard. Whether this is 5 yds or 15 yds before the hazard will depend on the exact circumstances at the time. (your speed, other traffic speed, visibility through/across the hazard, road surface, weather conditions etc.) and this is perhaps where the students are taking things too literally.
I used to instruct part time for many years and one of the reasons I gave up (other than it seriously impacted on family time) was that to me, it became too much about teaching newcomers to do life-saves at 5 yds and not enough about teaching them to assess each individual situation and managing the risks accordingly!
Very much agree about assessing the individual situation; teach students to be motorcyclists, not just pass the test. I had a really interesting conversation with a local examiner once, and he bemoaned the fact that he knew he was passing people who could ride the test routes perfectly (having done them all week) but would struggle anywhere else.Remembering that the life-save is there for the purpose of spotting the thing that is a) in your mirror bind spot and b) right on top of you. If you are about to move left, and something is in the danger area (fast bicycle, motorcycle etc.) then looking over your right shoulder will not spot it thus not stop you from turning/moving into it’s path.
The life-saver should always be done at the last practical/safe moment when handling any hazard. Whether this is 5 yds or 15 yds before the hazard will depend on the exact circumstances at the time. (your speed, other traffic speed, visibility through/across the hazard, road surface, weather conditions etc.) and this is perhaps where the students are taking things too literally.
I used to instruct part time for many years and one of the reasons I gave up (other than it seriously impacted on family time) was that to me, it became too much about teaching newcomers to do life-saves at 5 yds and not enough about teaching them to assess each individual situation and managing the risks accordingly!
I hate the rigid "here you do this, there you do that" approach that some instructors/schools adopt; how can we teach the same approach to every single situation when no two situations are exactly the same?
However, while I generally agree with the "look before you turn" principle I still prefer the last lifesaver when going ahead at a roundabout to be to the right (but won't get hung up about it if it isn't!).
Yes, there is the opportunity for a cyclist/motorcyclist to be on the left hand side, however they will have to be pretty rapid to get there round the outside.
Traffic leapfrogging on the right however has the shorter, straighter route and is looking at the open exit road; unlikely they will stop for you! At least if you know they are there you have the options of adjusting your position or speed to avoid them before they put you up onto the pavement.
lc38 said:
I have to agree that there is a lot of contradiction from various people on how to do observations and its surprising how many people who are learning are taught different methods, all of which apparently are supposed to be correct and would result on you failing if you did not do what the instructor says.
I have my test next week and my observations have been hammered into me as follows, this of course contradicts what the OP had said
If changing road position either to the left or right within your lane (like overtaking a parked car, moving out due to a cycle lane etc) then mirror, lifesaver right to move out and then left lightsaver to return back to your central road position. (no indicators apparently even if you end up moving into the oncomming lane as he says it will confuse motorists as they might think im going to turn right.!!!!)
For junctions, he tells me mirror, signal, lifesaver (one only in the direction of your turn), move to postion (whether left or right turn). If turning left or right then no more lifesavers just before you turn as you will distracted what is in front of you. However if you turning right from a major into a minor road, same as above but before the final turn, another right life saver incase someone has tried to overtake.
For roundabouts, same as above except always a left lifesaver just before exiting the roundabout
it gets confusing though, i think it might be better to get a minor for over lifesaving that a fail for not doing a crucial lifesaver....if in doubt do one?
This is pretty much what I teach apart from the roundabout bit (see above).I have my test next week and my observations have been hammered into me as follows, this of course contradicts what the OP had said
If changing road position either to the left or right within your lane (like overtaking a parked car, moving out due to a cycle lane etc) then mirror, lifesaver right to move out and then left lightsaver to return back to your central road position. (no indicators apparently even if you end up moving into the oncomming lane as he says it will confuse motorists as they might think im going to turn right.!!!!)
For junctions, he tells me mirror, signal, lifesaver (one only in the direction of your turn), move to postion (whether left or right turn). If turning left or right then no more lifesavers just before you turn as you will distracted what is in front of you. However if you turning right from a major into a minor road, same as above but before the final turn, another right life saver incase someone has tried to overtake.
For roundabouts, same as above except always a left lifesaver just before exiting the roundabout
it gets confusing though, i think it might be better to get a minor for over lifesaving that a fail for not doing a crucial lifesaver....if in doubt do one?
Final lifesavers before turning off the main road are much more important; right hand especially.
This is the classic opportunity for the high speed filterer (Dave the Demon Dispatcher) to have you off the bike if you don't!
As a rough guide, I suggest the right hand lifesaver is done as you pass the pavement of the road you are about to turn in to but, as suggested above, flexibility is the key.
when i did my CBT (dec 06) & DAS (jan 07) they both said the same for observations. which was do a minimum of three -
away from turn
into turn
lifesaver into turn
so turning left at a junction
look right
look left
left lifesaver
go
it was also said they should be a sweep of the head, not look, move, look etc and to add any extra you feel you need, so there was nothing wrong on my training with a right lifesaver off roundabouts, but TBH after a day or so so my speed increased i didnt have too many problems with the crazy overtaker syndrome.
away from turn
into turn
lifesaver into turn
so turning left at a junction
look right
look left
left lifesaver
go
it was also said they should be a sweep of the head, not look, move, look etc and to add any extra you feel you need, so there was nothing wrong on my training with a right lifesaver off roundabouts, but TBH after a day or so so my speed increased i didnt have too many problems with the crazy overtaker syndrome.
Hooli said:
so turning left at a junction
look right
look left
left lifesaver
go
But who are you looking for with the lifesaver that you won't already have seen?look right
look left
left lifesaver
go
You will have checked mirrors before indicating and done a lifesaver before adjusting your position in the lane; where will someone else come from?
Also, do you find this method gives you enough time at the junction to be absolutely sure you're safe from your right so you can emerge without stopping?
Not trying to be difficult (for once), but when I've tried it I feel that I've only really glanced to the right and haven't made a reliable enough check to be certain about pulling out.
Edited by Rubin215 on Friday 14th March 17:57
This is an interesting thread.
I was an instructor back in the old "part 1 / part 2" days. We taught the "look both ways, lifesaver in the direction you're about to go" approach, but we wouldn't tolerate stopping at a give way if there was no need to do so: its a give way, not a stop sign.
We taught more to produce riders who could ride, rather than pass the test (but the test itself was easier then). As we all know, once you get to advanced training, its a case of "consider doing" rather than "do". The system requires you to consider a lifesaver etc: if you've checked the inside on the appraoach to the junction whilst taking up the correct position, consider whether you need to do it again before committing to the turn. If you've just passed a bunch of lycra clad cyclists - all head down and going at speed - then probably "yes". If it was clear, then probably not.
Perhaps, in an ideal world, the driving test would include a "debrief" session, where the examiner says (eg) "I note you didn't do a lifesaver at this junction - why not?" If the candidate can say "Well, I had just checked 5 seconds ago and everything was clear, so it was appropraite to continue to make good progress without rechecking at the point of turning" etc, then OK. Unfortunately, the test is a tick-box exercise and trainers will tend to "train to pass" not "train to ride", because they get paid for the former. The test leaves no room for the candidate to think and make decisions based on the real circumstances.
All I can say to those who are doing their test shortly is ride to pass the test, then get more training to learn how it works in the real world. Ride exactly to current test requirements for too long and its going to end up hurting (simply because no one else on the road is driving to test standards).
Dave
I was an instructor back in the old "part 1 / part 2" days. We taught the "look both ways, lifesaver in the direction you're about to go" approach, but we wouldn't tolerate stopping at a give way if there was no need to do so: its a give way, not a stop sign.
We taught more to produce riders who could ride, rather than pass the test (but the test itself was easier then). As we all know, once you get to advanced training, its a case of "consider doing" rather than "do". The system requires you to consider a lifesaver etc: if you've checked the inside on the appraoach to the junction whilst taking up the correct position, consider whether you need to do it again before committing to the turn. If you've just passed a bunch of lycra clad cyclists - all head down and going at speed - then probably "yes". If it was clear, then probably not.
Perhaps, in an ideal world, the driving test would include a "debrief" session, where the examiner says (eg) "I note you didn't do a lifesaver at this junction - why not?" If the candidate can say "Well, I had just checked 5 seconds ago and everything was clear, so it was appropraite to continue to make good progress without rechecking at the point of turning" etc, then OK. Unfortunately, the test is a tick-box exercise and trainers will tend to "train to pass" not "train to ride", because they get paid for the former. The test leaves no room for the candidate to think and make decisions based on the real circumstances.
All I can say to those who are doing their test shortly is ride to pass the test, then get more training to learn how it works in the real world. Ride exactly to current test requirements for too long and its going to end up hurting (simply because no one else on the road is driving to test standards).
Dave
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