John Eales vs Supercharged vs TVR Power
Discussion
So, as my Chim 500 gets closer to sorted, it owes me more than it's worth and in the quest for true supercar performance i'm resigned to making a choice between 3 power options. I don't want a corvette engined TVR, don't ask me why, i just don't.
The options I'm considering are :
SC Power intercooled supercharger to achieve 380bhp or so
JE Developments RV8 + big alu rad & improved oil cooling to achieve 375bhp
Taraka +, plus ECU to achieve 350bhp or so
(although to be fair to Dom, I haven't yet given him a budget to work to)
I was almost dead set on the SC option, but my faith has been eroded by several sources concerned about the impact on the cooling system
The JE D & TVR Power options are both all but brand new engines as I understand it. The "old school" that I've encountered give John Eales the highest references.
I'm expecting all the options to come within 4 figures, just, with TVR Power being least expensive (but correspondingly the lowest result), SC Power in the middle but with exhaust heat and oil cooling unresolved. Finally JE D coming in at the highest price for the most complete overall solution.
Anyone got anything - constructive
- they want to add to help me make a good decision ?
Don't say "should have bought a T Car", because I bought a chim instead and now wish to make the most of it. Likewise Cerb because it "had" to be convertible
The options I'm considering are :
SC Power intercooled supercharger to achieve 380bhp or so
JE Developments RV8 + big alu rad & improved oil cooling to achieve 375bhp
Taraka +, plus ECU to achieve 350bhp or so
(although to be fair to Dom, I haven't yet given him a budget to work to)
I was almost dead set on the SC option, but my faith has been eroded by several sources concerned about the impact on the cooling system
The JE D & TVR Power options are both all but brand new engines as I understand it. The "old school" that I've encountered give John Eales the highest references.
I'm expecting all the options to come within 4 figures, just, with TVR Power being least expensive (but correspondingly the lowest result), SC Power in the middle but with exhaust heat and oil cooling unresolved. Finally JE D coming in at the highest price for the most complete overall solution.
Anyone got anything - constructive
- they want to add to help me make a good decision ?Don't say "should have bought a T Car", because I bought a chim instead and now wish to make the most of it. Likewise Cerb because it "had" to be convertible
Hi Jammie Dodger,
JE has built many engines, some for desert racing where there is high heat the engine is working hard to pull through sand and loose gravel, also for comp racing on hill rallies, where the engines have high rpm with moderate speed.
Most people who use a JE engine in the ‘off road clubs’ and ‘all wheel drive clubs’ always commented that the engine was smooth, never gave any problems and did what it was designed to do..
He does know his stuff and I would use him if I had that sort of money.
Like any upgrade it is only as good as the money and time spent on the bottom end and head work. Sticking a big ‘hair dryer’ will give you power but will stress the bottom if not in really good condition. Imagine having a JE engine 375 bhp working like a race horse, then bolt on a blower and wind up the boost a little, it will seem as the race horse is on steroids, but no side affects.
JE has built many engines, some for desert racing where there is high heat the engine is working hard to pull through sand and loose gravel, also for comp racing on hill rallies, where the engines have high rpm with moderate speed.
Most people who use a JE engine in the ‘off road clubs’ and ‘all wheel drive clubs’ always commented that the engine was smooth, never gave any problems and did what it was designed to do..
He does know his stuff and I would use him if I had that sort of money.
Like any upgrade it is only as good as the money and time spent on the bottom end and head work. Sticking a big ‘hair dryer’ will give you power but will stress the bottom if not in really good condition. Imagine having a JE engine 375 bhp working like a race horse, then bolt on a blower and wind up the boost a little, it will seem as the race horse is on steroids, but no side affects.
Alexdaredevilz said:
Or put a proper engine in for a easy 400+ Bhp?
I want to accept good advice (for a change) and keep it under 400 as beyond that I understand that you have to start looking at different 'box etc.This is for a road car and my pockets aren't so deep that I'm prepared to rebuild the car from the ground up with bespoke components. V8ndy's project looks on face value to be the ultimate...
Brakes, suspension & engine (Inc rad) are as far as I want to take it. Well, ok, I might have to put a vanity exhaust system on at some stage...
spend said:
Get one of Robs special big capacity engines, at least he uses forged pistons & H-beam rods on top hat linered blocks with I believe a custom ground crank from a larger base casting. V8D website gives you an idea, but best to have a chat directly with Rob I think.
Yeah I thought V8D should get a shot at the enquiry, their name keeps cropping up.Another no for supercharged ?
:sigh: I like the noise they make
900T-R said:
For a road car, I'd stick with the SC. I can only imagine the smoothness of a 375 bhp N/A RV8 to be 'relative'... but amybe I'll change my mind after hearing the spec.
Not very convinced about 5+l spec RV8s - at least not on standard Rover head castings - either...
What do you have to say about the excess heat 900T-R .Not very convinced about 5+l spec RV8s - at least not on standard Rover head castings - either...
I'd say an S/C engine would be less susceptible to temperature related issues than an N/A lump of equivalent power - higher rpm = higher friction levels = more heat. If I was having a new lump built I'd consider oil flow mods to get a better temperature distribution across the engine for sure (mine has them apparently) but that would defeat the object of having bought a low mileage example in the first place. I'd go with the bolt on S/C kit which apparently has been proven to work within the engine's design limits and give 365 bhp.
The problem I see with N/A RV8 engines this powerful for road cars is that 43 mm (what you have in the 500) is already an awfully big intake valve to fit in an RV8 head, but an awfully small valve for a 5 litre plus engine (at 5 litres for a 'sports' engine, you'd typically expect something more like 50 mm) - meaning getting 350+ is already going some for a 'full race' spec engine with a very hairy cam & solid lifters (at which point your nice and servicefriendly RV8 is becoming as awkwards as a S6 - well at least 2/3rd of the way (16 vs 24 valves)
True, the effects of such a cam can be lessened by going with individual throttle bodies - which will probably be what JE prescribes at this level - it would take some body mods to get two intake tracts into the nosecone which I assumed is not accounted for in the build price? I still can't see it to be a very nice car to drive on the road.
Personally I'd shoot for low 300s bhp for a normally aspirated engine or go for the S/C kit or I'd want some serious chassis mods beyond just bolting on better coilovers. Even then... it's still a car the weight of a VW Lupo, on the wheelbase of a Citroën AX...
The problem I see with N/A RV8 engines this powerful for road cars is that 43 mm (what you have in the 500) is already an awfully big intake valve to fit in an RV8 head, but an awfully small valve for a 5 litre plus engine (at 5 litres for a 'sports' engine, you'd typically expect something more like 50 mm) - meaning getting 350+ is already going some for a 'full race' spec engine with a very hairy cam & solid lifters (at which point your nice and servicefriendly RV8 is becoming as awkwards as a S6 - well at least 2/3rd of the way (16 vs 24 valves)
True, the effects of such a cam can be lessened by going with individual throttle bodies - which will probably be what JE prescribes at this level - it would take some body mods to get two intake tracts into the nosecone which I assumed is not accounted for in the build price? I still can't see it to be a very nice car to drive on the road.
Personally I'd shoot for low 300s bhp for a normally aspirated engine or go for the S/C kit or I'd want some serious chassis mods beyond just bolting on better coilovers. Even then... it's still a car the weight of a VW Lupo, on the wheelbase of a Citroën AX...
900T-R said:
For a road car, I'd stick with the SC. I can only imagine the smoothness of a 375 bhp N/A RV8 to be 'relative'... but amybe I'll change my mind after hearing the spec.
Not very convinced about 5+l spec RV8s - at least not on standard Rover head castings - either...
I do feel at times like building you a big capacity rover engine for free to change your mind on themNot very convinced about 5+l spec RV8s - at least not on standard Rover head castings - either...
but i am not that rich!, just for reference now i did a few 5.5 litre engines, 94mm stroke 96.5 mm bore, a few ended up in tivs, and where making 430ftlb and 380bhp, mot legal and drove very smooth, and wait for it, i was revving them to 7000, peak power was 5900 with peak torque at 4500, i did build a race motor on one of the 5.5 short engines, and it made 437 bhp with with 402 ftlb with peak power at 6700, all on rover casted heads, and with the throttle response of a small engine.
Jammie Dodger said:
spend said:
Get one of Robs special big capacity engines, at least he uses forged pistons & H-beam rods on top hat linered blocks with I believe a custom ground crank from a larger base casting. V8D website gives you an idea, but best to have a chat directly with Rob I think.
Yeah I thought V8D should get a shot at the enquiry, their name keeps cropping up.Another no for supercharged ?
:sigh: I like the noise they make
Eric seems to have a big chip on't shoulder regarding big capacity engines & head flow, but be assured we've seen more effect on power from the manifolds and induction over 300bhp to date. Having your BV heads tweaked further is not so expensive either, I think most will only advocate tidying up the valve guides & some valve de-shrouding - I certainly don't think they are the limiting factor in the 400bhp hurdle. Even the 500's are still oversquare engines so you just end up with greater capacity & the same valve into tube (bore) arrangement. The big advantage Rob's (& I guess JE's) larger engines have is the increased bore which does yield a possibility for slightly larger valves (but you're getting into danger with seats hitting waterways) but more importantly increased flow due to reduced bore shrouding of the valve. IIRC they have had upto 96.5mm bores with top hat liners, so apart from the greater torque due to capacity you are also going to get intrinsically better head flow. The other possible advantages like access to more common yank twirly bits and a beefier crank than the production based ones all seems very attractive IMHO.
You still have to add on more modern ecu for fuel & sparking whichever way you go..
spend said:
The big advantage Rob's (& I guess JE's) larger engines have is the increased bore which does yield a possibility for slightly larger valves (but you're getting into danger with seats hitting waterways) but more importantly increased flow due to reduced bore shrouding of the valve. IIRC they have had upto 96.5mm bores with top hat liners, so apart from the greater torque due to capacity you are also going to get intrinsically better head flow. The other possible advantages like access to more common yank twirly bits and a beefier crank than the production based ones all seems very attractive IMHO.
Bit surprised you never flagged that larger bores automatically result in higher effective CR too... a good big un will always have a higher BMEP than a good little 'un v8 racing said:
I do feel at times like building you a big capacity rover engine for free to change your mind on them
but i am not that rich!, just for reference now i did a few 5.5 litre engines, 94mm stroke 96.5 mm bore, a few ended up in tivs, and where making 430ftlb and 380bhp, mot legal and drove very smooth, and wait for it, i was revving them to 7000, peak power was 5900 with peak torque at 4500, i did build a race motor on one of the 5.5 short engines, and it made 437 bhp with with 402 ftlb with peak power at 6700, all on rover casted heads, and with the throttle response of a small engine.
but i am not that rich!, just for reference now i did a few 5.5 litre engines, 94mm stroke 96.5 mm bore, a few ended up in tivs, and where making 430ftlb and 380bhp, mot legal and drove very smooth, and wait for it, i was revving them to 7000, peak power was 5900 with peak torque at 4500, i did build a race motor on one of the 5.5 short engines, and it made 437 bhp with with 402 ftlb with peak power at 6700, all on rover casted heads, and with the throttle response of a small engine.
Rob, I'll be calling you tomorrow afternoon or Thursday morning to talk about the project, or if you like you can email me linleyw@yahoo.com
In a nutshell, I'm looking for a turnkey installation to achieve 375/380, taking torque as given, in as long term reliable & cool running, well mannered delivery as possible. I need induction, ECU, rad, oil cooler, AFM, fuel delivery etc. , whatever is needed to do the job right, all specced and priced for me as on a tech level I don't know what Im doing. I just know what end result I'm looking for
Can't talk in the morning as picking the car up from David Gerald with new nitrons and ACT hoses
Car is a serpentine 500 chim recorded 28k miles, late 98
s
t I've been doing this all wrong
Rob your over revving fat lumpy efforts are rubbish
Can I have one for free now please
PS bugger making him one, we'd all rather see this damned book you've been taunting us with for so many years now, so for Christ's sake devote your free time to that instead
PPS wasn't Jamie supposed to be doing one for Haynes as well BTW?
t I've been doing this all wrong Rob your over revving fat lumpy efforts are rubbish
Can I have one for free now please
PS bugger making him one, we'd all rather see this damned book you've been taunting us with for so many years now, so for Christ's sake devote your free time to that instead
PPS wasn't Jamie supposed to be doing one for Haynes as well BTW?
I have one of Robs 5l engines ,pulls like a train ,sits at 30mph in fith with no shunting.It as been on the dyno twice and it made 339.5 bhp more than 70bhp on a factory built 5l.Its more than enough power for me.it cost less than a super charger install and i have a new engine..Thats including removing the engine building it and fitting tunning etc..I can get it above 350bhp with a few hours on the rollers perfecting the fueling ,wasted spark etc.The Megasquirt transformed the car and can re tunned at any time ..I love it because it drives like a standard car and better around town but soon as i tweak the throttle it goes like a rocket.. nearly forgot the sound which is the most important thing..those 5l motors do sound good.
nearly forgot the sound which is the most important thing..those 5l motors do sound good.Edited by SILICONEKID340HP on Tuesday 14th June 22:31
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