GEMS ECU - what's involved?
Discussion
Hi all,
was just on another post and read about the advantages of the GEMS ECU.
I understand it's self mapping in terms of fuel AND ignition (which for me is a big plus)- no messing around with a laptop and graphs!
I've wanted to move away from the 14CUX and distributor based timing as I see that as the real weak point of the setup in the TVR. However it's not really a retrofit option as various sensors need to be built in and that would involve stripping a good bit of the engine down.
Luckily my 4.6 block is at Robs getting flanged liners so I am at the point where such things could be incorporated.
Can anyone give me an idea of cost and rough procedure as well as any advice on doing this?
Spend mentioned a custom trigger wheel and a different cam design - could anyone elaborate a bit?
cheers
You really need to speak to Mark Adams, as they need reprogramming to bypass the Range Rover / land Rover security system. They dont simply plug and play, but you need a map programmed with the target AF ratios for it to learn against, again a rechip (There are 2 chips needed). Last time I looked it was about £700 for these from Mr Adams. These ECU's use 4 wasted spark coils and also have knock sensors that are tuned to the relevant block size fitted (ie different blocks resonate at different frequencies when knocking.) Timing wise it uses a 36 tooth trigger wheel with a gap for TDC. The ECU comes 4 different types, with 30 sub model types depending on the application and these are seriously clever ECU's and certainly up to or better than anything aftermarket, and pretty cheap second hand. However you will need to talk to Mr Adams, as you will need to get the software correct apart from any physical issues.
The OEM setup was only for auto boxes with crank triggers in the flywheel. So you need to setup a crank trigger from somewhere - that said somewhere I have a flywheel hidden away somewhere with a groove machined in the back to receive an OEM trigger ring removed from a flex plate...all assuming you have the hole at the back of you 4.6 block to take the relevant sensor.
The cam sensor is a shaped disc on the front of the cam that if you have a full serpentine front casing you'll have a mounting hole for the sensor
If you have the right block and the right front case you'll have the mounts for the knock sensors after that its a case of bolting the sensors on on and wiring in the ecu...oh but the sump might not have the well in the right place and an intermediate (ie TVR serpentine) sump doesnt fit
All that said...speak to Rob.
Regards
Iain
The cam sensor is a shaped disc on the front of the cam that if you have a full serpentine front casing you'll have a mounting hole for the sensor
If you have the right block and the right front case you'll have the mounts for the knock sensors after that its a case of bolting the sensors on on and wiring in the ecu...oh but the sump might not have the well in the right place and an intermediate (ie TVR serpentine) sump doesnt fit
All that said...speak to Rob.
Regards
Iain
debaron said:
Hmmmm, the costs then certainly start to look prohibitive over megaskirt by the time you've got 2 MA chips in there and a couple sensors. I'll give Rob a bell and discuss options. Reckon it will be MS though!
The GEMs ECU can be piggy backed, so the MegaSquirt has full control over fuel and ignition leaving the GEMS to control the auto box. Phil
daxtojeiro said:
The GEMs ECU can be piggy backed, so the MegaSquirt has full control over fuel and ignition leaving the GEMS to control the auto box.
Phil
Although quite why you'd want to replace GEMS with a system that's technically twenty years behind it is another matter.Phil
The cost of the GEMS software and unlocking the ECU is £500+VAT. Once you have this, there are no dyno or setup costs involved unless you want something really unusual!
GEMS has very powerful self-diagnostic capabilities, and a range of fallback strategies to cope with sensor failures (like the 14CUX, but far moe sopisticated). It is also fully OBD-II compliant, so can be maintained by anyone with an OBD-II scanner.
If anyone is interested, I have a great deal of information about these conversions since I have been doing them steadily for years and run one in one of my own cars. You can PM me, or just ask the questions here and I'll do my best to answer them.
BTW didn't mean any dis-respect to the Megasquirt - there is clearly a lot of work gone into it and I'm sure Phil is justifiably proud of it. However the fact remains that nearly all aftermarket systems are twenty years behind GEMS in sophistication. It stands to reason really since the original design teams are quite large in number and have millions of Pounds budget. On top of this they have to meet the toughest emissions legislation in the world, and cope with very hostile operating conditions.
Currently I am working on an engine with John Eales which is a 5.1 on cross-over throttle bodies, roller cam, twin air flow meters, all on GEMS. It will have to pass the California smog test too, which it will do easily.
BTW didn't mean any dis-respect to the Megasquirt - there is clearly a lot of work gone into it and I'm sure Phil is justifiably proud of it. However the fact remains that nearly all aftermarket systems are twenty years behind GEMS in sophistication. It stands to reason really since the original design teams are quite large in number and have millions of Pounds budget. On top of this they have to meet the toughest emissions legislation in the world, and cope with very hostile operating conditions.
Currently I am working on an engine with John Eales which is a 5.1 on cross-over throttle bodies, roller cam, twin air flow meters, all on GEMS. It will have to pass the California smog test too, which it will do easily.
Mark Adams said:
If anyone is interested, I have a great deal of information about these conversions since I have been doing them steadily for years and run one in one of my own cars. You can PM me, or just ask the questions here and I'll do my best to answer them.
BTW didn't mean any dis-respect to the Megasquirt - there is clearly a lot of work gone into it and I'm sure Phil is justifiably proud of it. However the fact remains that nearly all aftermarket systems are twenty years behind GEMS in sophistication. It stands to reason really since the original design teams are quite large in number and have millions of Pounds budget. On top of this they have to meet the toughest emissions legislation in the world, and cope with very hostile operating conditions.
Currently I am working on an engine with John Eales which is a 5.1 on cross-over throttle bodies, roller cam, twin air flow meters, all on GEMS. It will have to pass the California smog test too, which it will do easily.
Blimey twin air flow meters? that takes me back a few years with you!BTW didn't mean any dis-respect to the Megasquirt - there is clearly a lot of work gone into it and I'm sure Phil is justifiably proud of it. However the fact remains that nearly all aftermarket systems are twenty years behind GEMS in sophistication. It stands to reason really since the original design teams are quite large in number and have millions of Pounds budget. On top of this they have to meet the toughest emissions legislation in the world, and cope with very hostile operating conditions.
Currently I am working on an engine with John Eales which is a 5.1 on cross-over throttle bodies, roller cam, twin air flow meters, all on GEMS. It will have to pass the California smog test too, which it will do easily.
Mark Adams said:
BTW didn't mean any dis-respect to the Megasquirt - there is clearly a lot of work gone into it and I'm sure Phil is justifiably proud of it. However the fact remains that nearly all aftermarket systems are twenty years behind GEMS in sophistication.........
Currently I am working on an engine with John Eales which is a 5.1 on cross-over throttle bodies, roller cam, twin air flow meters, all on GEMS. It will have to pass the California smog test too, which it will do easily.
Hi Mark,Currently I am working on an engine with John Eales which is a 5.1 on cross-over throttle bodies, roller cam, twin air flow meters, all on GEMS. It will have to pass the California smog test too, which it will do easily.
Very proud of it indeed. Can you justify the comments of 20 years though? I would be willing to do a shoot out of features, compatability, injector control, etc.
The best engine Im dealing with right now is a V12 Lamborgini (I know its just an Audi really) using an MS3 running it full sequential fuel and full sequential ignition. The guy wants to add a couple of turbos to it, some people never have enough,
Phil
Edited by daxtojeiro on Tuesday 23 August 21:41
Sorry, confused of Wiltshire here seeking clarification please?? Apologies if it's passed me by.........but....
GEMS, is that the Lucas-Sagem system re-used from Range Rovers??
GEMS, the Engine Management System who's web-page reflects many things but not Rover V8 conversions per-se.
Which system is Mr Adams referring to ???
Tks
Trev
GEMS, is that the Lucas-Sagem system re-used from Range Rovers??
GEMS, the Engine Management System who's web-page reflects many things but not Rover V8 conversions per-se.
Which system is Mr Adams referring to ???
Tks
Trev
blitzracing said:
GEMS is a Lucas / Sagen Generic Engine Management System, fitted to the Range Rovers and Land Rover V8's with serp engines in a period between the earier 14CUX system and the latter BMW Motronic system.
Mark, Tks for input.I am still v confused with these people who's system/Company is also GEMS who "claim" 25-years experience as Mr Adams referred in his comments earlier?? Not search for a conspiracy theory. just find it confusing.....??
General Engine Management Systems Ltd (GEMS) are a specialist UK electronics engineering company with impeccable credentials and exceptional status in producing high quality electronics systems for the autosport industry spanning over 25 years.
Trev
daxtojeiro said:
Hi Mark,
Very proud of it indeed. Can you justify the comments of 20 years though? I would be willing to do a shoot out of features, compatability, injector control, etc.
I would be interested seems megasquirt gets a bashing quite alot when many people dont know just how capable it is!!Very proud of it indeed. Can you justify the comments of 20 years though? I would be willing to do a shoot out of features, compatability, injector control, etc.
Edited by daxtojeiro on Tuesday 23 August 21:41
go for it....
Neal
Gotta say that having spoke to Rob and read about trigger wheels and how to modify the cam for GEMS on another thread - it looks a bit off-putting for me.
I want to do a lot of the build & install myself - apart from the bottom end (which is pretty important to get right!) and the aforementioned is beyond my comfort zone.
Also due to the fact that the remedial work to convert the engine is easier as well as the opportunity to tweak for future upgrades - it's got to be MS.
Thanks for everyone's input.
Ryan
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