Starting issue
Discussion
After parking her in the car park at work, i was unable to start her again, after checking all the fues etc found that the hot start mod fues keep blowing when replace, removed the hot start mod, only to find that the start motor had given up the ghost. She has been off the road for a couple of weeks on ramps so that i could get the correct starter motor (well when the correct one was sent).
The new starter motor has been fitted, the engine turns over but it doesn't want to fire up. all the fuses have been checked to see if any of the other have blown. the fuel pump is priming without any issue.
any help anyone can provide would be great.
Shoot me down somebody, but if he can bump start the car and it then runs ok, then the problem must be in the strength of the power going from the battery to the starter motor?
TVR fitted a long and poor quality cable from battery to starter, didn't they, and removed the relay, which is why the hot start mod helps? So a new thicker, good quality, lead from battery to starter motor would be the first thing to try?
Assuming of course that it's not just a battery near the end of it's life. Might be worth getting that checked first.
TVR fitted a long and poor quality cable from battery to starter, didn't they, and removed the relay, which is why the hot start mod helps? So a new thicker, good quality, lead from battery to starter motor would be the first thing to try?
Assuming of course that it's not just a battery near the end of it's life. Might be worth getting that checked first.
Edited by Quietlybonkers on Sunday 25th November 20:57
Quietlybonkers said:
Shoot me down somebody, but if he can bump start the car and it then runs ok, then the problem must be in the strength of the power going from the battery to the starter motor?
TVR fitted a long and poor quality cable from battery to starter, didn't they, and removed the relay, which is why the hot start mod helps? So a new thicker, good quality, lead from battery to starter motor would be the first thing to try?
Assuming of course that it's not just a battery near the end of it's life. Might be worth getting that checked first.
So is it cranking or not?TVR fitted a long and poor quality cable from battery to starter, didn't they, and removed the relay, which is why the hot start mod helps? So a new thicker, good quality, lead from battery to starter motor would be the first thing to try?
Assuming of course that it's not just a battery near the end of it's life. Might be worth getting that checked first.
Edited by Quietlybonkers on Sunday 25th November 20:57
Have you checked the voltage drop at the starter?
There are a number of starting faults with these cars, all are easy to fix but you really need to understand what's going on.
If you discover the battery/starter lead is at fault then my post here may help?
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
You could just have an earth issue, the best thing you can do is use a meter to find out whats really going on.
This way you'll fix what's at fault first time, otherwise you'll just end up replacing things hoping the problem goes away.
Edited by ChimpofDarkness on Sunday 25th November 21:30
when i had the issue to start with, i did call the AA who checked that the voltage Starter motor was ok and the eath was also ok. the onlt thing that did say was that the voltage was aroung 12.1 volts when it should be around 12.4 volts
After replacing the starter motor checked that the motor would turn over with out any issue, she is turning over with no issue, just doesn't seem to want to fire up. One thing that i didn't put back was the hot start mod that i removed due to the issus of the fuses that it uses kept blowing during testing of the starter motor. will get that put back and see if the issues goes away. if it does i'll look at replacing the battery cable to a more heavy duty one.
After replacing the starter motor checked that the motor would turn over with out any issue, she is turning over with no issue, just doesn't seem to want to fire up. One thing that i didn't put back was the hot start mod that i removed due to the issus of the fuses that it uses kept blowing during testing of the starter motor. will get that put back and see if the issues goes away. if it does i'll look at replacing the battery cable to a more heavy duty one.
Try checking the battery is fully charged and in good conditions.
With the weather getting colder battery condition starts having a bigger effect. It could be that the spark when cranking is weak due to voltage drop as the new starter is using all that the battery has in it with nothing/not enough left for the coil.
With the weather getting colder battery condition starts having a bigger effect. It could be that the spark when cranking is weak due to voltage drop as the new starter is using all that the battery has in it with nothing/not enough left for the coil.
jimbo1812 said:
when i had the issue to start with, i did call the AA who checked that the voltage Starter motor was ok and the eath was also ok. the onlt thing that did say was that the voltage was aroung 12.1 volts when it should be around 12.4 volts
After replacing the starter motor checked that the motor would turn over with out any issue, she is turning over with no issue, just doesn't seem to want to fire up. One thing that i didn't put back was the hot start mod that i removed due to the issus of the fuses that it uses kept blowing during testing of the starter motor. will get that put back and see if the issues goes away. if it does i'll look at replacing the battery cable to a more heavy duty one.
The hot start kit just puts a relay in the starter solenoid circuit, TVR never fitted one originally After replacing the starter motor checked that the motor would turn over with out any issue, she is turning over with no issue, just doesn't seem to want to fire up. One thing that i didn't put back was the hot start mod that i removed due to the issus of the fuses that it uses kept blowing during testing of the starter motor. will get that put back and see if the issues goes away. if it does i'll look at replacing the battery cable to a more heavy duty one.
TBH, the starter solenoid circuit either works or it doesn't, you'll know if it doesn't because the starter simply won't spin.
If the starter motor spins, putting the hot start kit back wont make any difference at all, because your problem is not in the starter solenoid circuit.
It is possible your starting system is so marginal with all the resistance in the system and with the the draw from starter motor spinning, that what's left is insufficient to power the ignition system.
I've seen this before on other cars, when you crank the drain is so great you get little or no spark just when you need a really strong one.
It'll really struggle to start like this if at all, however when you bump start the car the draw from the starter is removed from the equation so the spark returns.
Hey presto the car starts.
Your problem could be the feeble and excessively long starter cable TVR fitted, it also has a hard life suffering thousands of heat cycles.
The starter/battery lead lives draped over the bell housing which is an area gets very little cooling airflow.
I made a massive improvement to the way my car starts by replacing this thin & crispy 16 year old lead with new thicker higher amp rated cable, I helped things further by adding an extra earth from the negative battery terminal direct to the engine block.
The problem in your case could be as simple as an earth or a weak battery, it may even be your coil is on the way out.
For the system to work at it's best every element in the chain needs to be in tip top condition, not just the starter motor.
I would take a decent heavy duty jump lead from the battery negative terminal direct to one of the starter motor mounting bolts, if it starts like this then you have an earthing issue.
If that doesn't help, remove your makeshift additional earth & take the jump lead from the positive battery terminal to the live connection on the back of the starter.
Repeat the starting test, if it starts you have a bad battery/starter lead, remember it could (& probably is) a bit of both, IE a weak earth and a weak live feed to the starter.
It's also worth getting your battery properly tested, go to an independent old school mechanic and ask him to perform a heavy discharge test, don't go to KwikFit or the like they will just try to sell you a battery even if yours fine.
As part of your service schedule I always think its worth replacing the coil & ignition amplifier every five years or so, under a TVR bonnet is a hot punishing environment for anything let alone delicate electrical components.
Always use a quality Bosh coil & a Lucas amp available at reasonable cost from any Land Rover spares specialist.
These cars do suffer from a weak spark as it is, anything you can do to improve this situation will make a big difference, even something as simple as a better set of plugs can help.
I had great success upgrading to NGK Iridiums with the projected electrode, my car started better & idled smoother on these plugs, it all helps.
Like I say there are a few things that could individually be the source of your problem, but more likely there are a number of components that are marginal.
In isolation they may not cause a problem, but add them all up & these marginal components conspire together to create a non-starter.
Good luck with it
Edited by ChimpofDarkness on Monday 26th November 10:13
What a fantastic post, Chimpofdarkness. I will be printing that off, with your permission of course, and stapling it to the garage wall. And then i will do some of the things you suggest just to make my car run more smoothly. It always starts, but usually on somewhere between 5 and 7 cylinders when cold.Quietlybonkers said:
What a fantastic post, Chimpofdarkness. I will be printing that off, with your permission of course, and stapling it to the garage wall. And then i will do some of the things you suggest just to make my car run more smoothly. It always starts, but usually on somewhere between 5 and 7 cylinders when cold.Regarding you fluffy cold starts, it was those iridium plugs made the biggest difference for me.
A lot cheaper than a Mark Adams chip & just as effective at improving cold starts in my experience
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
It seems TVR/Range Rover just dumped a mass of fuel in to ensure the cars started when cold, that's all well & good if you've got a good spark, but it can lead to flooding if the ignition side is a bit iffy.
These cars definitely have a feeble spark on the old coil & dizzy system compared with a modern car.
My car used to die if you touched the throttle immediately after a cold start, it was fine after idling for a minute or so, but you did have to just sit there & wait.
If you forgot and touched the throttle it would die & restarts were virtually impossible as the damn thing would be properly flooded, only the wide open throttle trick could coax it into life, followed by lots of black smoke & a smell of fuel.
Two things helped.
1) Fooling the ECU into thinking the car was already warm, I did this by dropping the ECU temp sensor in a mug of hot water. Like this the car burst into life and was drivable immediately, proving the over rich cold start issue. Clearly my mug of hot water was never gong to be a practical solution though.
2) Fitting the NGK BPR6EIX iridium plugs made a big difference, the car started better, idled smoother and could be driven away immediately after the coldest of cold starts.
With the Lucas 14CUX you cant really do anything (practical) to alter the fuelling, so your only option is to try and burn all that fuel a bit better.
At £46.00 for eight NGK BPR6EIX delivered to your door, they are a cheap & effective improvement to starting your TVR in the winter months.
Definitely not Snake Oil, I would recommend these plugs to anyone running a TVR.
gruffalo said:
Try checking the battery is fully charged and in good conditions.
With the weather getting colder battery condition starts having a bigger effect. It could be that the spark when cranking is weak due to voltage drop as the new starter is using all that the battery has in it with nothing/not enough left for the coil.
A healthy battery should have 13+ volts when fully charged. 13.7 on mine then drops back to 13.3 on resting. With the weather getting colder battery condition starts having a bigger effect. It could be that the spark when cranking is weak due to voltage drop as the new starter is using all that the battery has in it with nothing/not enough left for the coil.
Thanks Dave. I had a long chat this evening with Mat Smith of Mat Smith Sports Cars fame, and read out your post to him. He thought your observations sounded very interesting, so given that my car has always started, but running can feel a little rough, we are getting some new Lumenition plug leads, the iridium plugs you suggest, and some heat sleeve and are going to have a play later in the week to see if we can improve the running and fluffy starting. I will report back!
Reporting back as promised. Iridium plugs and Lumenition leads fitted this morning. Not done a fully cold start yet, but car started fine a couple of hours after getting home from the plug change.
Exactly as COD reported, the new plugs made the throttle response much quicker and the car accelerated better and was a lot more fun to drive. And smoother running too. Mat had a quick drive and agreed it seemed better. I will report back again on the cold starting.
Exactly as COD reported, the new plugs made the throttle response much quicker and the car accelerated better and was a lot more fun to drive. And smoother running too. Mat had a quick drive and agreed it seemed better. I will report back again on the cold starting.
jimbo1812 said:
Hi CoD
thanks for the advice. Got her started, changed the coil and then found that i also has an issue the with distributor cap took and a replaced it she started. now looking to replace cap and leads and also look at the plugs as well.
james
If your doing a full ignition service James, don't forget to change the rotor arm.thanks for the advice. Got her started, changed the coil and then found that i also has an issue the with distributor cap took and a replaced it she started. now looking to replace cap and leads and also look at the plugs as well.
james
You need a genuine Lucas one with Lucas cast into the insulating material.
I also believe the "Distributor Doctor" offers a decent replacement in a red insulating material.
Just be very wary of anything else like BritPart ect, these are often made in India, when asked to make the insulating material in black the Indians did so by adding carbon powder.
Carbon powder is clearly about the worst thing you can add to a material that's meant to be an insulator.
Expect misfires and all sorts of other ignition related issues if your rotor arm is not a decent one.
Quietlybonkers said:
Reporting back as promised. Iridium plugs and Lumenition leads fitted this morning. Not done a fully cold start yet, but car started fine a couple of hours after getting home from the plug change.
Exactly as COD reported, the new plugs made the throttle response much quicker and the car accelerated better and was a lot more fun to drive. And smoother running too. Mat had a quick drive and agreed it seemed better. I will report back again on the cold starting.
Hmmm.....cold start not so clever. The car started no problem, but couldn't hold an idle and stalled. Started it again, drove through the gate, got out to shut the gate and the car was revving up and down from 200 to 700 revs. Got in again and drove, halted at the first roundabout 600 yards down the road, tickover perfect at 900 rpm.Exactly as COD reported, the new plugs made the throttle response much quicker and the car accelerated better and was a lot more fun to drive. And smoother running too. Mat had a quick drive and agreed it seemed better. I will report back again on the cold starting.
Any advice re the cold starting?
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