16" Estorils please

[Chilliman]

I am muchly in need of two 16" Estorils (rears to put on the front) so's I can comfortably go to 300mm front discs. Must be unmarked.

Anyone?

Thanks guys,

Chilli

[Chimjunkie]

Thats a shame, i have a set of Imolas in the classifieds. The Estorils seem to fetch pretty good money..

[Chilliman]

Chimjunkie said:

Thats a shame, i have a set of Imolas in the classifieds. The Estorils seem to fetch pretty good money..

I spotted those whilst looking for Hans brake kit

You appear to be selling your Chim part by part rather than as a complete car.. Is that because it realises greater value that way? Or is there another reason? Just curious...

Chilli

[V8 GRF]

You'll rarely find 16" wheels on their own as people are mostly doing what your doing Chilli. I had to buy a full set and then sell off the 15" wheels, didn't have any problems getting rid of those though.

As well as bigger brakes the 16" wheels offer an improvement in the front end grip and stability.

[Chilliman]

V8 GRF said:

You'll rarely find 16" wheels on their own as people are mostly doing what your doing Chilli. I had to buy a full set and then sell off the 15" wheels, didn't have any problems getting rid of those though.

As well as bigger brakes the 16" wheels offer an improvement in the front end grip and stability.

I think I've come to that conclusion David Matthew put a link to an excellent thread on my other post about 16" fronts, it's from just a few years ago and full of interesting info

Be interested to know what make/size tyres you're using on your 16" fronts... concensus on the afore mentioned thread is 225/45/ZR16.... I also understand from the same thread that the different ET (32 on the 16's as opposed to 25 on the 15's) is partly countered by the extra half inch rim width of the 16's (7.5")....

All good stuff

Chilli

[V8 GRF]

Yep I'm running 225/45 on the front as well.

I had a little fouling on the offside front on the lower wishbone on full lock but that was sorted with a lock stop. I understand it all depends on how centrally your steering rack is mounted as to whether you actually need them at all.

I use Toyo T1RS and have found them to be excellent, I'm about to need a new set but I'm toying with the idea of fitting Maxxis tyres after having a chat with the chap on their stand at Autosports.

Edited by V8 GRF on Sunday 3rd February 16:11

[Chimjunkie]

Chilliman said:

I spotted those whilst looking for Hans brake kit

You appear to be selling your Chim part by part rather than as a complete car.. Is that because it realises greater value that way? Or is there another reason? Just curious...

Chilli

I broke the crankshaft and the car was Cat D from several years back so made sense to break it for parts. Been the right decision too. Cant believe how well it has gone. Not easy when people pick stuff up in a TVR though! I want another! Just got to get rid of 3 lotus's now ;-)

[TA14]

Chilliman said:

I've just read the thread Matthew liked to and I'm sure it was saying you don't need spacers because the offset is compensated for by the 7.5 inch rim (as opposed to the 15" 7" rim)

No that's not what it said. The spacers are there to stop rubbing if the steering rack has not been centrally positioned (and possibly the body also) so you may not need them.

GreenV8S said:

Roberto Rica said:

As I pointed out earlier in this topic the extra width cancels out the different offset.

Not sure what you mean by 'cancels out', the fact that the offset is different means that the position of the contact patch is different relative to the steering axis which can affect the tendency to tramline and kickback. It's only a small difference, as all these changes are, and I don't expect it to cause a problem, but the effect is there. Similarly, fitting tyres of the same width on a wider and bigger diameter rim will mean that the sidewalls are shorter and angled differently which means the tyre will behave differently. Again, only a small effect. If you take the opportunity to fit wider tyres instead of stretching the narrow ones, the contact patch will change shape which will change the way that self-aligning torque and lateral forces change with slip angle. There are other effects I haven't mentioned. All these effects are small, even cumulatively I wouldn't expect them to cause a problem, but they are there and they are noticeable and they *could* cause a problem for some people.

One of the earlier questions was why is it bad to increase the lateral stiffness at the front. The faster you are going the more important lateral stiffness of the tyre becomes. At low speed, stability is largely determined by wheel geometry, roll stiffness and drive/braking. The high speed stability is partly determined by the relative lateral stiffness of the front and rear of the car. When you push the car sideways(from a cross wind, or road camber, or a fast sweeping bend) do the front wheels yield more or less than the rear? If the front is soft relative to the rear, the car will tend to wander in the direction you push it, which is fine in moderation. If the front is stiffer then it will tend to turn in towards the force. In moderation that's fine too, but if this effect is increased then you can get feedback where lateral acceleration make the car yaw and produce more lateral acceleration and so on, and you can end up with a car that starts weaving or even goes out of control at very high speed. Having the front slightly soft makes the car stable, it will tend to point where it is going, it will tend towards nice safe understeer at high speed. Aerodynamic effects usually work against you at high speed so having a tyre/suspension setup that promotes stability at very high speed is a good idea.

Having said that, I'm sure that the main reason manufacturers tend to fit bigger wheels at the rear is the same reason that most people probably fit bigger wheels: styling.

Chilliman said:

I also understand from the same thread that the different ET (32 on the 16's as opposed to 25 on the 15's) is partly countered by the extra half inch rim width of the 16's (7.5")....

As you can see above that is not what the other thread says. You should theoretically fit 1/4" wheel spacers or thereabouts (not to be confused with the rack spacers) but if you don't then the difference seems to be minimal; IIRC David (V8 GRF) runs his car with no rack spacers and no wheel spacers and has no problems.

[Chilliman]

TA14 said:

Chilliman said:

I've just read the thread Matthew liked to and I'm sure it was saying you don't need spacers because the offset is compensated for by the 7.5 inch rim (as opposed to the 15" 7" rim)

No that's not what it said. The spacers are there to stop rubbing if the steering rack has not been centrally positioned (and possibly the body also) so you may not need them.

GreenV8S said:

Roberto Rica said:

As I pointed out earlier in this topic the extra width cancels out the different offset.

Not sure what you mean by 'cancels out', the fact that the offset is different means that the position of the contact patch is different relative to the steering axis which can affect the tendency to tramline and kickback. It's only a small difference, as all these changes are, and I don't expect it to cause a problem, but the effect is there. Similarly, fitting tyres of the same width on a wider and bigger diameter rim will mean that the sidewalls are shorter and angled differently which means the tyre will behave differently. Again, only a small effect. If you take the opportunity to fit wider tyres instead of stretching the narrow ones, the contact patch will change shape which will change the way that self-aligning torque and lateral forces change with slip angle. There are other effects I haven't mentioned. All these effects are small, even cumulatively I wouldn't expect them to cause a problem, but they are there and they are noticeable and they *could* cause a problem for some people.

One of the earlier questions was why is it bad to increase the lateral stiffness at the front. The faster you are going the more important lateral stiffness of the tyre becomes. At low speed, stability is largely determined by wheel geometry, roll stiffness and drive/braking. The high speed stability is partly determined by the relative lateral stiffness of the front and rear of the car. When you push the car sideways(from a cross wind, or road camber, or a fast sweeping bend) do the front wheels yield more or less than the rear? If the front is soft relative to the rear, the car will tend to wander in the direction you push it, which is fine in moderation. If the front is stiffer then it will tend to turn in towards the force. In moderation that's fine too, but if this effect is increased then you can get feedback where lateral acceleration make the car yaw and produce more lateral acceleration and so on, and you can end up with a car that starts weaving or even goes out of control at very high speed. Having the front slightly soft makes the car stable, it will tend to point where it is going, it will tend towards nice safe understeer at high speed. Aerodynamic effects usually work against you at high speed so having a tyre/suspension setup that promotes stability at very high speed is a good idea.

Having said that, I'm sure that the main reason manufacturers tend to fit bigger wheels at the rear is the same reason that most people probably fit bigger wheels: styling.

Chilliman said:

I also understand from the same thread that the different ET (32 on the 16's as opposed to 25 on the 15's) is partly countered by the extra half inch rim width of the 16's (7.5")....

As you can see above that is not what the other thread says. You should theoretically fit 1/4" wheel spacers or thereabouts (not to be confused with the rack spacers) but if you don't then the difference seems to be minimal; IIRC David (V8 GRF) runs his car with no rack spacers and no wheel spacers and has no problems.

It was this part of the thread I was referring to:

Roberto Rica said:

Hi

I don't think the rim/tyre widths or offset are problems at all - from a previous thread on spacers I think it was shown that the extra rim width (12.5mm/2 = 6.25mm) just about cancelled out the different offset (32mm-25mm = 7mm) - very convenient - and the standard front tyre widths of 225 (pas) or 205 (non-pas) are plenty wide enough for a 7.5 rim in fact more suited than a 245 or wider.

I was pleasantly surprised when I made the change from 15in to 16in fronts - absolutely no discernable side effects.

Rob

Edited by Roberto Rica on Saturday 10th March 13:21

Thankyou for the clarification regarding the spacers, be handy if they're not required

[TA14]

Chilliman said:

It was this part of the thread I was referring to:

Roberto Rica said:

I don't think the rim/tyre widths or offset are problems at all - from a previous thread on spacers I think it was shown that the extra rim width (12.5mm/2 = 6.25mm) just about cancelled out the different offset (32mm-25mm = 7mm) - very convenient - and the standard front tyre widths of 225 (pas) or 205 (non-pas) are plenty wide enough for a 7.5 rim in fact more suited than a 245 or wider.

Yes but the bit that I quoted was pointing out that RR was not correct; however, as mentioned above, the consensus appears to be that it's de minimis.

Chilliman said:

Thankyou for the clarification regarding the spacers, be handy if they're not required

No problem. It's on a car by car basis. I'd fit 1/4" wheel spacers at the front first before deciding anyway.

Good luck in getting the wheels.

[SILICONEKID350HP]

TA14 said:

Chilliman said:

It was this part of the thread I was referring to:

Roberto Rica said:

I don't think the rim/tyre widths or offset are problems at all - from a previous thread on spacers I think it was shown that the extra rim width (12.5mm/2 = 6.25mm) just about cancelled out the different offset (32mm-25mm = 7mm) - very convenient - and the standard front tyre widths of 225 (pas) or 205 (non-pas) are plenty wide enough for a 7.5 rim in fact more suited than a 245 or wider.

Yes but the bit that I quoted was pointing out that RR was not correct; however, as mentioned above, the consensus appears to be that it's de minimis.

Chilliman said:

Thankyou for the clarification regarding the spacers, be handy if they're not required

No problem. It's on a car by car basis. I'd fit 1/4" wheel spacers at the front first before deciding anyway.

Good luck in getting the wheels.

The weird thing is the wheels fitted to my car when i purchased it were aftermarket ,15 and 16" They were replacments because the Imolas were stolen .

The front offset was 15 ,what i did notice is zero bump steer ,i`m wondering if the wider track helped to get rid of the bump steer.

I kind of liked them, maybe i should of stuck with them.

[V8 GRF]

TA14 said:

No problem. It's on a car by car basis. I'd fit 1/4" wheel spacers at the front first before deciding anyway.

Good luck in getting the wheels.

I wouldn't fit the spacers, I don't think they're necessary in this case and on a personal level I've never liked the concept, reminds me of the jacked-up Ford Escorts in the '70s featured in Hot Car

[paul2000]

HI chilliman my names paul i have a set of estorils for sale if we can agree on a price they are on my griffith at the mo but iam putting bbr,s on it soon it you look at my car you wil see they are in very good cond, i will try and get some more photo,s for you soon ,i don,t want to post them ,so if youwant them you will have to come to cardiff ,also i will only sell them as a set of 4 hope this helps paul

[Chilliman]

paul2000 said:

HI chilliman my names paul i have a set of estorils for sale if we can agree on a price they are on my griffith at the mo but iam putting bbr,s on it soon it you look at my car you wil see they are in very good cond, i will try and get some more photo,s for you soon ,i don,t want to post them ,so if youwant them you will have to come to cardiff ,also i will only sell them as a set of 4 hope this helps paul

Hi Paul, YHM

Thanks,

Chilli

[rigga]

See.....bailed out by a Grief owner ....I hope all your previous nasty comments are sticking in your throat right now.

[Chilliman]

rigga said:

See.....bailed out by a Grief owner ....I hope all your previous nasty comments are sticking in your throat right now.

Ah c'mon Martin you know it's all in jest Some of my best mates are Griff owners

[rigga]

Chilliman said:

rigga said:

See.....bailed out by a Grief owner ....I hope all your previous nasty comments are sticking in your throat right now.

Ah c'mon Martin you know it's all in jest Some of my best mates are Griff owners

There were a few smilies in my post I believe to indicate some humour .....

[Chilliman]

rigga said:

Chilliman said:

rigga said:

See.....bailed out by a Grief owner ....I hope all your previous nasty comments are sticking in your throat right now.

Ah c'mon Martin you know it's all in jest Some of my best mates are Griff owners

There were a few smilies in my post I believe to indicate some humour .....

Sorry Martin, it's just that it's hard to tell sometimes if you guys are being humerous or not

[roseytvr]

Okay moving the 16" front tyre debate on a little further - concensous seems to be 225/45/16 as per the Griff SE but what about power steering - does this make a difference to tyre size?

By the way Chilli did you source your 16" Estorils? If so what tyre are you going for?

[Chilliman]

roseytvr said:

Okay moving the 16" front tyre debate on a little further - concensous seems to be 225/45/16 as per the Griff SE but what about power steering - does this make a difference to tyre size?

By the way Chilli did you source your 16" Estorils? If so what tyre are you going for?

Hi rosey, yes picking up set of Estorils week after next, will fit 225/45/ZR16 to the 16's for the front (Proxes T1R's probably) I don't have power steering so can't help with the tyre size question I'm afraid...