Discussion
I am currently looking at a house move which will increase my commute from 12 miles a day to 50.
I couldn't really commute antymore in the TVR and cannot justify having three cars (OH needs her own for work).
I have two choices..
1) Sell up
2) Make Trevor significantly cheaper to run (albeit with a moderate outlay).
How practical is it? And what kind of conversion cost / timescales am I looking at? I found myself looking at diesel XJs earlier and felt dead inside.
I couldn't really commute antymore in the TVR and cannot justify having three cars (OH needs her own for work).
I have two choices..
1) Sell up
2) Make Trevor significantly cheaper to run (albeit with a moderate outlay).
How practical is it? And what kind of conversion cost / timescales am I looking at? I found myself looking at diesel XJs earlier and felt dead inside.
Don't know about lpg, but I can do the maths!
Based on 26mpg
£11.63 a day to run a chim per day
£6.62 a day on lpg. (assuming slight reduction in mpg, 24 in this case)
Assuming working 6 days a week.
Non lpg cost = 11.63 * 6 * 50 = £3489
Lpg Cost = £6.62 = £1986
3489-1986 = £1503 a year difference or £30/week saving.
Based on 26mpg
£11.63 a day to run a chim per day
£6.62 a day on lpg. (assuming slight reduction in mpg, 24 in this case)
Assuming working 6 days a week.
Non lpg cost = 11.63 * 6 * 50 = £3489
Lpg Cost = £6.62 = £1986
3489-1986 = £1503 a year difference or £30/week saving.
Meths said:
Don't know about lpg, but I can do the maths!
Based on 26mpg
£11.63 a day to run a chim per day
£6.62 a day on lpg. (assuming slight reduction in mpg, 24 in this case)
Assuming working 6 days a week.
Non lpg cost = 11.63 * 6 * 50 = £3489
Lpg Cost = £6.62 = £1986
3489-1986 = £1503 a year difference or £30/week saving.
That sounds really tempting Based on 26mpg
£11.63 a day to run a chim per day
£6.62 a day on lpg. (assuming slight reduction in mpg, 24 in this case)
Assuming working 6 days a week.
Non lpg cost = 11.63 * 6 * 50 = £3489
Lpg Cost = £6.62 = £1986
3489-1986 = £1503 a year difference or £30/week saving.
But who would be stupid enough to convert a TVR to LPG
Surely it would never work
Or could it
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
ChimpOnGas said:
That sounds really tempting
But who would be stupid enough to convert a TVR to LPG
Surely it would never work
Or could it
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Do you have the final cruise figures ..But who would be stupid enough to convert a TVR to LPG
Surely it would never work
Or could it
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
SILICONEKID350HP said:
Do you have the final cruise figures ..
It's an interesting one Daz.OK so lets look at the no BS genuine real world results now I've put some meaningful miles under Ol Gasbag's tyres:
(*all figures quoted are petrol cost equivalent)
- 38mpg on cruise at a steady 70mph
- 36mpg on cruise at a steady 85mph
- 34mpg at 100mph plus
- 35mpg in town
As we know this is a very different picture for a petrol Chimaera, which can be quite efficient on cruise but shocking in town or when you put your foot down.
Its also important to point out the very worst I've seen on LPG so far is 32mpg, you simply can't get it any lower than that no matter how aggressively you drive, and believe me I've tried.
But its the average where the package really scores.
With the petrol car it all depends on how much of any type of driving you do, but I've been following my petrol average for over two years now & the figure comes in at 24mpg.
What I'm seeing so far from the car on LPG is a pleasing average of 35mpg.
And it's the average that counts, a 10mpg improvement is well worth having in my book especially when you consider there is absolutely no loss of performance and the car drives just as beautifully on LPG as it does on petrol.
But I'm not finished yet.
My original design brief was set as follows, I have included the results:
Objective: One piece roof in boot plus touring luggage for two people to tour Europe for two weeks
Result: Achieved with with no compromise
Objective: No external evidence of the conversion
Result: Achieved with with no compromise
Objective: No performance loss
Result: Achieved, exactly the same power on both fuels (well 1hp more on LPG if you believe the rolling road)
Objective: Reasonable petrol range retained
Result: Exceeded expectations, I can easily drive for 150 miles or more on petrol without fear of running out
Objective: The cost equivalent of 40mpg at a steady 80 - 85mph
Result: Fail, 38mpg best & 35mpg at 80 - 85mph cruise
Resolution: 72cc Yellow Dot Keihin injectors replaced with 62cc Orange Dots, vapouriser pressure reduced from 1 bar to 0.8 bar and remap accordingly with a focus on the low load cruise window in both fuelling & ignition
Objective: 300 mile range on LPG at 80 - 85mph cruise
Result: Fail, 230 miles currently achieved on LPG at 80 - 85mph cruise
Resolution: Injector, vaporiser & mapping adjustments as above with the addition of my new 42 litre four hole LPG tank to replace the bottom 30 litre tank only (& yes the roof still fits in perfectly)
There's definitely scope to improve the 80-85mph fuel economy a touch, fortunately the Canems system gives us total control over injector duration & ignition timing under all conditions.
This combined with the smaller injectors and vaporiser pressure reduction should see us easily hitting the 40mpg target at a steady 80 - 85mph.
The 42 litre four hole tank combined with the existing 30 litre top tank will allow me to carry 13.5 imperial gallons of usable LPG while still retaining a 15% expansion margin.
The petrol tank should just have enough clearance to mean it's modification is kept to a minimum when everything gets lifted up 44mm by the larger diameter 42 litre bottom tank.
At a true post adjustments LPG economy of 23mpg (*41.4mpg cost equivalent) I will now have a gas range of 310.5 miles exceeding the brief.
Plus the 150 miles of petrol (should I choose to use it) to give me a non-stop cruising range of 460.5 miles.
In practice I'll not be filling the petrol tank full, a couple of gallons is sufficient & keeps the weight acceptable, although it is nice to have the full 7 gallon petrol fill option if I need it.
I've covered over 3,000 miles on LPG so far and have already started to make a meaningful impact on the cost of the conversion in the form of savings.
The conversion has proved reliable & flexible and has in no way spoilt the character or practicality of the car.
Ok there are a couple of small areas that can be improved upon, but these are very much in hand and to be expected on a project like this.
The fact the conversion ticks nearly every box in the brief is proof this is a real world option for other Chimaera owners.
The 300 mile range 40mpg TVR I set out to create is so close it hurts, even as it stands the package is a complete game changer for anyone that wants to use their TVR more, without spoiling it's unique charms.
In summary I'd say the project has been a great success, and soon to become better still.
I trust that answers your question Daz?
SILICONEKID350HP said:
That sounds like it`s worked out pretty well ,The only disappointment is you were getting 30mpg on cruise on petrol controlled by the Camens ECU.
A 5mpg increase could of better and that is the area I would like I like the most improvement.
But it's the average MPG figure when consuming a full tank over a range of driving speeds and conditions that counts Daz.A 5mpg increase could of better and that is the area I would like I like the most improvement.
If you look at my LPG high speed and town fuel economy compared with petrol the system is devastatingly efficient.
The only real areas for improvement are the 80-85mph cruise window, and the range, obviously one has a bearing on the other and resolutions are already in hand.
Even as it stands, it's delivering a 10mpg improvement overall.
In cost terms it's like running a petrol Ford Focus, which at a stroke makes the TVR Chimaera a potential replacement for your everyday car.
I call that a success
I'll update my "Follow My Conversion" post when the smaller injectors & bigger tank go in, and give everyone the honest results.
The 42 litre tank is being made in Poland as we speak, but I dont expect to see it before the end of June.
Until then I'll just keep driving & saving
Skyedriver said:
CoG, as someone considering returning to the fold, can you tell me what the cost of the final conversion will be, excluding you experimentation and are you or someone else actually marketting the conversion?
Thanks
Truth is there are many ways to skin the LPG cat Skyedriver.Thanks
I've always been honest that my approach was never going to be the cheapest.
But if I was doing it again the only things I'd change would be the things I'm about to change.
A fraction more cruise economy and a couple of extra gallons of gas on board are all it needs to reach perfection.
Probably the best way to qualify the costs are to say you could easily recover your investment within two to three years, after that you're laughing all the way the bank.
To do that you do need to be doing a meaningful amount of miles annually, and you will need to be 100% sure the car is a keeper.
If the answers to both those questions are yes, then I recommend talking your requirements over with an LPG expert.
Here's the guy that did mine:
http://questmotorsport.co.uk/
And a great job he made of it too
I had a Jag LPG conversion, brilliant!
Tvr I'd rather not do it but if it meant keeping her longer then I wouldn't think twice, I'd have it done.
You def need to do the milage or keep it many years for it to add up though.
I hav'nt read the details but I'd want to know if the old Rover can handle the extra heat created in the combustion chamber..
Chimpongas my engine oil on LPG was much cleaner, another benefit, is it the same for you?
Tvr I'd rather not do it but if it meant keeping her longer then I wouldn't think twice, I'd have it done.
You def need to do the milage or keep it many years for it to add up though.
I hav'nt read the details but I'd want to know if the old Rover can handle the extra heat created in the combustion chamber..
Chimpongas my engine oil on LPG was much cleaner, another benefit, is it the same for you?
Alun450 said:
I had a Jag LPG conversion, brilliant!
Tvr I'd rather not do it but if it meant keeping her longer then I wouldn't think twice, I'd have it done.
You def need to do the milage or keep it many years for it to add up though.
I hav'nt read the details but I'd want to know if the old Rover can handle the extra heat created in the combustion chamber..
Chimpongas my engine oil on LPG was much cleaner, another benefit, is it the same for you?
Alun, the Rover V8 is the perfect candidate for LPG as proven over many millions of miles covered by LPG converted Range Rovers.Tvr I'd rather not do it but if it meant keeping her longer then I wouldn't think twice, I'd have it done.
You def need to do the milage or keep it many years for it to add up though.
I hav'nt read the details but I'd want to know if the old Rover can handle the extra heat created in the combustion chamber..
Chimpongas my engine oil on LPG was much cleaner, another benefit, is it the same for you?
This and the huge boot makes a Chimaera an ideal car for LPG, & probably one of the only sports cars worth converting.
Saying that, a mate of mine has a lovely V12 E-Type running very happily on gas.
We fitted exhaust gas temperature sensors to keep an eye on the predicted addition combustion temperatures
Amazingly what we discovered was the combustion temperatures are actually hardly any higher on gas than they are on petrol.
Another pleasing surprise
My Griff is averaging 21 mpg on Gas @(currently) 64p/l which is 42 mpg equivalent (I usually drive like I stole it so could get 50 mpg if I tried....)
System cost £1400 to install and can be removed within half a day should I ever sell the car with no sign it was ever there...
payback period is c.10k miles wich will be <18m for me.
I'm doing 3000 miles next wewk to Stelvio etc amd will 'save' c.£450 in fuel....
Why more of us haven't done it I don't know.....
Paul.
System cost £1400 to install and can be removed within half a day should I ever sell the car with no sign it was ever there...
payback period is c.10k miles wich will be <18m for me.
I'm doing 3000 miles next wewk to Stelvio etc amd will 'save' c.£450 in fuel....
Why more of us haven't done it I don't know.....
Paul.
pjac67 said:
My Griff is averaging 21 mpg on Gas @(currently) 64p/l which is 42 mpg equivalent (I usually drive like I stole it so could get 50 mpg if I tried....)
System cost £1400 to install and can be removed within half a day should I ever sell the car with no sign it was ever there...
payback period is c.10k miles wich will be <18m for me.
I'm doing 3000 miles next wewk to Stelvio etc amd will 'save' c.£450 in fuel....
Why more of us haven't done it I don't know.....
Paul.
You're getting your gas too cheap Paul, you're not playing fair System cost £1400 to install and can be removed within half a day should I ever sell the car with no sign it was ever there...
payback period is c.10k miles wich will be <18m for me.
I'm doing 3000 miles next wewk to Stelvio etc amd will 'save' c.£450 in fuel....
Why more of us haven't done it I don't know.....
Paul.
I've been paying a criminal £0.72p a litre and it's killing me.
That's an outrageous £3.27 a gallon, compared with your far more reasonable £2.91 a gallon.
Running on LPG is like turning the clock back to 1998 prices.
BTW when did you last buy the £6.10 a gallon wet stuff?
Personally I've gone right off the stuff
pjac67 said:
My Griff is averaging 21 mpg on Gas @(currently) 64p/l which is 42 mpg equivalent (I usually drive like I stole it so could get 50 mpg if I tried....)
System cost £1400 to install and can be removed within half a day should I ever sell the car with no sign it was ever there...
payback period is c.10k miles wich will be <18m for me.
I'm doing 3000 miles next wewk to Stelvio etc amd will 'save' c.£450 in fuel....
Why more of us haven't done it I don't know.....
Paul.
Who fitted ot for that money ?System cost £1400 to install and can be removed within half a day should I ever sell the car with no sign it was ever there...
payback period is c.10k miles wich will be <18m for me.
I'm doing 3000 miles next wewk to Stelvio etc amd will 'save' c.£450 in fuel....
Why more of us haven't done it I don't know.....
Paul.
I've got to stop reading this thread, I'll be wanting it done! It's the tank issue that bugs me. Got to keep the petrol tank so where to put a bottle. My jag had the round tank fitted in the spare wheel area, bang on.
I'm falling on hard times here at the mo, it makes sence today when a year ago I'd have said no way!
Keep your options open I'd say.
I'm falling on hard times here at the mo, it makes sence today when a year ago I'd have said no way!
Keep your options open I'd say.
Alun450 said:
I've got to stop reading this thread, I'll be wanting it done! It's the tank issue that bugs me. Got to keep the petrol tank so where to put a bottle. My jag had the round tank fitted in the spare wheel area, bang on.
I'm falling on hard times here at the mo, it makes sence today when a year ago I'd have said no way!
Keep your options open I'd say.
Lose half the petrol tank, and stack your LPG.I'm falling on hard times here at the mo, it makes sence today when a year ago I'd have said no way!
Keep your options open I'd say.
Simples
To be honest I'd only had mine on petol for cold start ups, half a tank lasted months!!!
That's a heck of a solution you have there.
My jag had much less torque on LPG but was running on standard ecu settings.
Chimp have you mapped the LPG accordingly?
The maddest thing about my jag at 100,000 miles the oil was black, LPG conversion and at 150,000 the oil used to come out almost the same colour it went in. De coked the engine and runs really clean.
If anyone's wondering, they used to run Mod cars on gas during the war, 70 years ago! It works.
That's the last point of worry, the bottles are actually much safer than the rusty paper thin petrol tank behind your head! I'm talking myself into this. Bye for now, my wallets puking up!
That's a heck of a solution you have there.
My jag had much less torque on LPG but was running on standard ecu settings.
Chimp have you mapped the LPG accordingly?
The maddest thing about my jag at 100,000 miles the oil was black, LPG conversion and at 150,000 the oil used to come out almost the same colour it went in. De coked the engine and runs really clean.
If anyone's wondering, they used to run Mod cars on gas during the war, 70 years ago! It works.
That's the last point of worry, the bottles are actually much safer than the rusty paper thin petrol tank behind your head! I'm talking myself into this. Bye for now, my wallets puking up!
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